Centralizing information for new players

Viper · Post by **Viper** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:20 pm

Dear community members,

Since the influx of new players, a lot of members of our great community have made efforts to collect and present information useful to players new to EM. This shows what kind of community we represent, and what our attitude towards new players is.

However, due to the amount of info and the lack of one central spot to present this information, a somewhat disorganized situation has resulted. There is a lot of information posted on several locations throughout the forum, which makes it harder for people to find it. Even I sometimes cannot find the info I'm looking for, simply because it's not clear where it has been posted. Newbies will have an even harder time.

I have asked Vice to create a forum section dedicated to the different servers we now have, which he agreed to. I am proposing that we as a community do the same thing regarding info for new players, and get our heads together and collect all the posts that hold important information. Maybe Vice will see it as a good idea to also create a forum section for this purpose (an 'info vault' of sorts), we will have to see how he feels about that when he reads this. Until then we can do a lot of the work ourselves.

There are manual's like the one DaveK made, but also Youtube video tutorials, regular informative posts and a lot more. It's going to be a bit of work to collect each and every one of them, but it will produce a really easy to use and consult database of knowledge for our newest members.
Anyone who feels up for it, could start with posting the link to a post he finds useful for new players as a reply to this thread. We can then at least collect the link to these posts. If and when Vice decides to create that 'info' forum, it will be much easier for the moderators to move the relevant posts to that section. And if such a section will not be created, we will at least have the links to all the useful posts in one central thread which will also be easier to work with.

If there's anyone who has additional ideas regarding this, please let them be heard. Any other feedback (maybe it's not such a good idea), go for it. This is to help the new guys so we can use any good idea.

[Edited on 1-23-2012 by Viper]

Karin · Post by **Karin** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:41 am

I've seen more than a few games attempt this with a wiki. Their fluid natures allow them to be easily modified and cross-linked, with external links, images, etc wherever is needed.

Forum information is good, although you might be afforded more flexibility with a wiki. That said, you might not have as active back-and-forth discussions on a wiki (it's possible, but a forum lends itself better for that). There are tradeoffs to each. You wouldn't want good information to be buried in forum posts for example.

I could do all the hosting for it if you'd like, installing the wiki, initial setup, etc, if someone else wanted to take on the role of maintaining and developing it. I'd even buy and host a domain name for it, for the good of the community. PM me if interested.

Karin · Post by **Karin** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:49 am

Aha, I just saw that a couple of wikis already exist for Evochron:

http://evochron.junholt.se/
http://www.starwraith.com/spacesims/

I do agree though that all the amazing yet subtle dynamics involved in this game be better documented for new players. Although perhaps it is that depth that makes it fun to really sink your teeth into too!

Kronous · Post by **Kronous** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:51 am

You could also make an official Evochron Wikia page, that would advertise the game a little more as well.

Post by **Marvin** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:30 am

One already existis. Evochron has its own Wiki.

MiaZ · Post by **MiaZ** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:55 am

From post: 125389, Topic: tid=8490, author=Viper wrote: .
.
Anyone who feels up for it, could start with posting the link to a post he finds useful for new players as a reply to this thread.

Avoiding Friendly Fire
_________________
http://www.starwraith.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8507

Flying Brick · Post by **Flying Brick** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:47 am

Viper - it's a very good idea, whether in a wiki format or as a collection of links to threads. Maybe both - as suggested, they both have pros and cons.

I wanted to try to do something like this, including lately, since I tend to see the same questions popping up over and over and over, but I haven't had the time/motivation/courage to go at it...

I do have a bunch of collected threads with really useful info that I think new players could benefit from, gathered when I started out and spent a lot of time searching the forums.

I'll see what I can do about posting those and organizing them in some meaningful manner, though obviously this is not going to be a weekend-long project, but maybe if it can be gotten off the ground, it will gain momentum and continue on its own, inertial-mode like...

edit: this post in now way tries to imply that I am, or consider myself, a vet.

I'm just a brick who likes to be really thorough, and gather as much info as possible...

[Edited on 1-23-2012 by Flying Brick]

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:04 am

It's a great idea, but as stated above, there is already a Wiki for EM.

In addition to that there is my site as stated above also. That one includes spoilers as well,
that's why me and Dingo created the EvoSchool.
http://www.junholt.se/evoschool/index.htm

There is no spoilers there. If there is any suggestions to add to that site, I'm more then
happy to expand/add/correct any information there. Just send it to me.

There is also the extensive guide that DaveK created available on my site.
All links are in my sig.

Flying Brick · Post by **Flying Brick** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:23 pm

One potential issue with threads is that, unless stickied, as long as they're gone off the front page, nobody will ever find them (unless you already know what it is, and explicitly search for it). Where is it right now? No idea, I'd have to search for it - but if you're a new player, how would you know about it, or how/where to find it?...

A similar issue exists with SeeJay's site: it's a great, great resource, full of amazing stuff, but it took me weeks, if not months, after browsing these forums, until I finally clicked on them and realized what was there. Otherwise, it's just "stuff in some guy's signature", like everybody else has. As a new player, I'm not gonna know about it, and I'm not gonna click on it more than I click on anybody's links/banners/stuff in their signatures.

To be clear, I'm not trying to be critical in this post: I'm just stating how things appear from my perspective; I was a newbie myself recently enough to remember how I wasn't able to find all these cool things, even if they're "in plain sight", more or less.

My thanks to all the folks who helped (me, and others) out with info, and their helpful posts, over time.

Perhaps a sticky can be made, like the one about navigation, that contains the links to SeeJay's site, to DaveK's guide, and so on.

edit: alternatively, people can just send bits and pieces to SeeJay to add to his site, and/or can add to the already-existing wiki for EM, which, as far as I can tell, is absolutely empty (ok, there's an article about the EM universe's history).

[Edited on 1-23-2012 by Flying Brick]

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:27 pm

I agree completely with a Flying Brick, don't ask me how, I just do!.......

:P

Viper · Post by **Viper** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:18 pm

Thanks all for the replies so far. Each one brings up really good points.

A wiki(a) was not necessarily what I had in mind. And like noted, there is already one around. Having said that, it might be a good idea to start adding some serious content to it. But that's matter for another discussion (thank you kindly for the offer of hosting one though, Karin).

I think Flying Brick hit the nail on the head:

From post: 125592, Topic: tid=8490, author=Flying Brick wrote:One potential issue with threads is that, unless stickied, as long as they're gone off the front page, nobody will ever find them (unless you already know what it is, and explicitly search for it). Where is it right now? No idea, I'd have to search for it - but if you're a new player, how would you know about it, or how/where to find it?...

A similar issue exists with SeeJay's site: it's a great, great resource, full of amazing stuff, but it took me weeks, if not months, after browsing these forums, until I finally clicked on them and realized what was there. Otherwise, it's just "stuff in some guy's signature", like everybody else has. As a new player, I'm not gonna know about it, and I'm not gonna click on it more than I click on anybody's links/banners/stuff in their signatures.

This is what I was going on about. With a lot of new players, a lot of questions get posted in the Rookie section. Most of them receive a lot of replies, and some of those replies are quite informative and extensive. These replies could be helpful to other new players with the same questions.
Then, aside from that, there are efforts like SeeJay's site, DaveK guide, Mecingo's Youtube video's, etc etc. Efforts that have been made by people their own initiative, and with a great informative value to new players.
Furthermore, having informative stuff posted on other sites is an awesome initiative and will prove incredibly helpful as well, but players who have just joined this forum and are not familiar with its structure, will not know where to look, like Flying Brick noted. I feel it might be very helpful to them if there would be one centralized spot on this forum, which would guide them to the information from there.

The question is, what would be the best approach to produce a piece of content that accumulates all these documents, which is both easy to find for any new player, and just as easy to browse through.

My view on this:

From post: 125592, Topic: tid=8490, author=Flying Brick wrote:Perhaps a sticky can be made, like the one about navigation, that contains the links to SeeJay's site, to DaveK's guide, and so on.

That would be exactly what I had in mind. One centralized, stickied post in the Rookie Pilot / Newbies forum section, containing all the links to the aforementioned posts and documents. The post itself would be put together in such a way that it is absolutely clear to anyone reading it, where to go to find which information. Having it stickied would ensure that it would remain on top of the other posts in that section at all times.

How do we all feel about this idea? If we can agree that this might be a workable concept, we should start collecting links and post them here as replies for the time being, like some have already done.
When we feel we have collected the most popular and important posts and links, I'd put it all together in one single post.

This would be a 'for the community - by the community'- effort though. So if there are people who feel something is being overlooked or it's a bad idea in general, would like to propose better options or whatever else, please do post about it now.

And no, I don't see myself as a veteran member at all either. with 'veteran' I just meant 'those members who are not totally new'. I'll change that though, sounds a bit cocky doesn't it.

Viper · Post by **Viper** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:39 pm

In addition, I would suggest to sticky those threads whose links we all agree on will be listed in the 'central info' thread, to make it even easier to find them. A lot of excellent posts have been made which have sadly not been stickied, and they are now 'lost' in the puddle of other posts on the forum.
Also, if nobody disagrees, I will add a list of credits mentioning the authors of the work listed in the thread. Some people have and will put a serious deal of effort in their work and I feel it is only right to give them credit for it, and at the very least mention their names.

Again, thoughts appreciated.

Viper · Post by **Viper** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:59 pm

I don't have a lot of time but I'll add some links which I think should be in the thread:

Avoiding friendly fire, by Marvin
Saving in-game data to a text file, by Vice
A Hints, Tips and Myths Guide to Evochron, by DaveK
Authorised Evochron Mercenaries' Technical Manual (3rd Ed - revised & extended), by DaveK
Testing your system's memory for SW3DG games, by Vice
Combat Tutorials, by Mecingo
Tutorial: Starting the Mercenary Quest, by Marvin
SeeJay's site, by SeeJay
Evochron Basics School, by SeeJay & Dingo (no spoilers included)
Starwraith 3D Games Youtube channel, by SW3D Games
How to know where given coordinates / destination is?, by Marvin
Rules for Clan control of a system, by DaveK
Frequently Asked Questions, by Vice
Evochron Mercenary Universe, by Vice

To be continued.

[Edited on 1-28-2012 by Viper]

[Edited on 1-28-2012 by Viper]

[Edited on 1-29-2012 by Viper]

[Edited on 1-29-2012 by Viper]

[Edited on 1-29-2012 by Viper]

[Edited on 1-29-2012 by Viper]

Bishop · Post by **Bishop** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:22 am

A possible solution to this situation is to do what Egosoft/the X community did on their forums. They made a thread similar to this one, except the OP is a list of links to various threads which contain useful information.

To elaborate, the thread is titled something like "Guides and Useful Information", then they made sections for the different X games/different aspects (Maps, Combat info, Story Help, etc.), and made named links to threads with associated info. The thread as a whole is stickied, which removes the need to sticky every useful thread (much like what Viper has done right above me, except his post would be the OP, and he'd have to update it at least semi-regularly). Responses to the thread which contain links would then be added to the OP.

Just a thought. Someone already suggested this; I suppose I'm just seconding/thirding the idea. I hadn't read all the responses before responding, but still left this message since adding support to the idea is useful.

EDIT: Although really, the only thing you need to tell new players is, "This game will piss you off." Keeping that in mind may help them through the beginning. I say this because it is constantly pissing me off, I am new, and knowing that it is sometimes incredibly frustrating might have stopped me from wanting to punch my monitor on several occasions. (things like distress calls that can't be answered because you're ridiculously far or get failed because you can't find the ****ing dock for the planet or a station with the correct goods when it's actually close enough to finish, jumping into a planet (enroute to somewhere else) and dying after not saving for a long while, accepting a mission for a mere ~30k only to find that your slightly upgraded beginning ship is no match for the Cruiser that's there, etc.).

EDIT 2: Sorry. Had to vent.

[Edited on 1-24-2012 by Bishop]

Viper · Post by **Viper** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:33 pm

From post: 125852, Topic: tid=8490, author=Bishop wrote:A possible solution to this situation is to do what Egosoft/the X community did on their forums. They made a thread similar to this one, except the OP is a list of links to various threads which contain useful information.

To elaborate, the thread is titled something like "Guides and Useful Information", then they made sections for the different X games/different aspects (Maps, Combat info, Story Help, etc.), and made named links to threads with associated info. The thread as a whole is stickied, which removes the need to sticky every useful thread (much like what Viper has done right above me, except his post would be the OP, and he'd have to update it at least semi-regularly). Responses to the thread which contain links would then be added to the OP.

Yes, that would be what I had in mind too:

From post: 125642, Topic: tid=8490, author=Viper wrote:One centralized, stickied post in the Rookie Pilot / Newbies forum section, containing all the links to the aforementioned posts and documents. The post itself would be put together in such a way that it is absolutely clear to anyone reading it, where to go to find which information. Having it stickied would ensure that it would remain on top of the other posts in that section at all times.

This very thread is not the actual info thread, it's for discussing the idea itself and collecting the links. When that's done, I'll put it all together into a post as described above.

If anyone finds a post he thinks should be in the info thread, please post the link here.

[Edited on 1-24-2012 by Viper]

Viper · Post by **Viper** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:02 pm

I'm planning to post the info thread by next Sunday. Below is the list as I have collected it so far:

*removed - see list above*

(The link list in the final thread will not necessarily be posted in the same order)

I feel I have forgotten a few important ones, but can't find them on the forum. If anyone thinks there's missing something too, could you please post the link below. I will then include it into the final thread.
Adding links after the thread is posted will always remain an option, but I'd like to present it as complete as possible.
Like before, any other feedback is also appreciated.

[Edited on 1-29-2012 by Viper]

Post by **DaveK** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:31 pm

One issue to keep an eye on is that threads like this can get sidetracked and it becomes hard to find what you want. It will also take someone willing to keep it in some sort of order and since only moderators and the person who creates a post can edit or remove that post it's not easy to do it

The advantage of a Wiki (in this case expanding on the nearly empty Wiki we already have) is that opinions and chats are excluded - only background "colour", info, hints and tips are in, though some sort of moderation would be good or else every spoiler would get a prominent position and a spoiler is after all a spoiler - In the Hints & Tips Guide I've used white text on a white background for real spoilers.

I intend to keep the hints and tips guide as up to date as I can - SeeJay has kindly offered to continue hosting it. It's ideal for those (Marvin, me and a couple of others) who like a hard copy, but it's also a useful file that can be referred to anytime

Is it OK by you if I take any new or interesting stuff from this thread and add it to the Guide?

One other issue is that a lot of the info is getting repeated - My guide has links to all the videos I could find (the official ones plus Mecingo's plus a few others), as well as Marvin's Starting the Merc Quest and the bulk of Seejay and Dingo's Basic School. It may mean that corrections and additions to a piece appear in one place but not in others leading to several versions of the same thing.

I've not done much work with Wiki's but I suspect that, if SeeJay's site isn't thought to be the way to go, we consider expanding the Wiki - I've already offered, if there is a demand and Vice approves, to add the information from the Tech Manual and Hints and Tips Guide to the Wiki, but there hasn't been a thunderous demand as yet! An issue with Wiki's is balancing the workload of keeping it correct and up to date against the rate of change in the game - there is actually a comprehensive Wiki out there but it refers to an older Evochron Game - lots of work, now out of date.

In terms of seeJay's site, he and I are already looking at how to get the Tech Manual on it (rather than as a download) and getting the Hints and Tips might be a logical follow on.

Who is offering to maintain this thread, stopping it getting sidetracked, editing and validating the content and keeping it up to date?

Viper · Post by **Viper** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:23 pm

Hey Dave

It appears there is a misunderstanding as to what this thread is going to be like, I sort of got this impression from some of the other replies as well. My apologies for creating a misunderstanding if I haven't been able to explain it sufficiently. I'll try my best to paint a detailed picture this time.

This thread (I mean this actual one in which I'm posting right now) is not going to be 'the' thread. It's meant to serve as a basis for discussion regarding the contents of the thread I'm eventually going to produce. This 'final' thread is going to be called something like 'Reference Thread for Guides and Useful Information' or something along those lines, and will be posted in the Rookie Pilots / Newbies section. That post will not contain actual information about anything, but will contain a list of links referencing to such threads and other informative items, such as the links as shown in the post above yours. The thread will serve as a base of reference in order to help players new to the forum, who will probably not have a clear picture where to look for the right info, find the most important posts easier. They will be able to look at the index in the thread (the link list) and simply click on the link, which will take them to the appropriate thread, Youtube video, offsite item (like your guide), etc.
Linking all those thread and items will counter the fact that all these wonderfully helpful topics are slowly drowned in all the other posts on the forum.

That will be basically it. At most, I will add a general 'welcome to all players' intro, mention the risk of spoilers when clicking on one of the links, and add a credit list of the people responsible for the threads and items listed in the post.
So there will not actually be anything informative in the thread itself, just a list of links. It will be the 'help index' of sorts for new forum members. I have deliberately taken this approach, because if I had attempted to collect the actual info itself and put that together into a thread, there would have been a good chance it would just cause confusion as it would just be 'another thread' and like you said yourself, get buried underneath the others. This would have been counter-effective. All the hard work has already been done by you guys, I'm just creating a reference point so people will be able to keep finding your work.

Regarding moderating the thread, there's 2 sides to the story.
On the one hand I would like to be able to keep adding links if someone would propose one not yet listed, which would mean I would have to have access to the thread.
On the other hand I would like to prevent the thread from turning into a 10 page discussion about all sorts of 'newbie' questions, but retain it as the reference index it is intended to be. This would mean I would ask a moderator to close the thread, which would prevent any further posting - including me. So I'm still undecided on that one.
In any case I will definitely ask a moderator to pin/sticky the thread, so it remains on top of the Rookie Pilots / Newbies section at all times, so it will always be easy to find for any player and doesn't get lost in all the other posts. This would defeat the entire purpose of the idea.

With that said, there will also be nothing you could take from the thread itself to add to your guide (since it's basically just a list of links). However, I have been chatting with Flying Brick. He will probably be sending you a u2u shortly with information he has collected over the last couple of weeks, which might prove to be a helpful addition to your guide. We talked about posting that info separately, but for the reasons you stated and him and I second, we decided it would be better to send it to you so you can add whatever you deem useful to your guide.

The last thing I want is for my 'info' thread to take away from any of the hard work anyone else has put in. On the contrary, my thread should help find that work easier, so your hard work is enjoyed and used more often.

The Wiki is a whole different story. Like you said, it will need a lot of time and commitment to maintain it. It would however be a very valuable asset to our community and the game at large, so this might be an interesting topic for the near future. Especially now with the game's popularity exploding all around us.

So basically, what I'm looking for right now, until I post the actual thread, is more links to informative posts that I might have missed.

Sorry for the ginormous wall of text. I hope I have explained it clearly enough this time. Thank you for the feedback.

[Edited on 1-26-2012 by Viper]

Post by **Marvin** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:23 pm

Check out my latest post here: http://www.starwraith.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8604

You might find it worth adding to your individual thingys. Or not.

Viper · Post by **Viper** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:37 pm

From post: 126720, Topic: tid=8490, author=Marvin wrote: Check out my latest post here: http://www.starwraith.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8604

You might find it worth adding to your individual thingys. Or not.

Really good stuff, added to the list. Thanks Marv!

Zalanore · Post by **Zalanore** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:03 pm

Hi all, noob here with my first post on the forums.

I just started playing and love this game, but I keep getting stuck on little things like how to equip something in my inventory (right click while docked). I love the idea of having a list of threads for noobs like me, but what I really think we need is a good wiki to organize the information a little better (probably with the links to the thread there as well). I realize there are already several wikis out there, but all the ones I've found have fewer than 10 posts on them since their creation. I was hoping someone could tell me which one is the "official" wiki so that I can start populating it with what little info I've gathered since starting in the hopes that everyone else will as well. Here are the wikis I've found so far:

http://www.starwraith.com/spacesims/ind ... =Main_Page
http://starport1.110mb.com/wiki/index.php/Main/HomePage
http://shackwiki.com/wiki/Evochron_Mercenary

Post by **Marvin** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:05 am

There is an official wiki ... I posted the link about three days ago. Unfortunately, I've lost it again.

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:31 am

The wiki is at: http://www.starwraith.com/spacesims/ind ... =Main_Page

Zalanore · Post by **Zalanore** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:08 pm

Awesome. Thanks guys.

I'm going to start filling it in with random useful info I've gathered. I'd appreciate it if people would check what I post though because some of it might be wrong, and a lot of it will be incomplete.

Zalanore · Post by **Zalanore** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:43 pm

Umm... okay? So tried to post on the wiki and now I'm blocked indefinitely and the page to message the moderator hasn't been made yet. Does anyone know who I should speak to?

(Just to prevent confusion I'm talking about: http://www.starwraith.com/spacesims/ind ... =Main_Page )