Nav map

Post by **Vice** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:41 am

I can't seem to get it to work on certain setups running in windowed mode, unfortunately. Or I would have likely applied a function to it already

The click/double-click method would be an option, although I'd probably get feedback asking why clicking on a location didn't plot a nav point like it used to.

Glad that right click method helps, W.O.

[Edited on 2-9-2009 by Vice]

Elvisman2001 · Post by **Elvisman2001** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:28 am

I think i am getting the hang of the nav map now. And, i think i have really realized what is causing me some grief. When right clicking on certain stations, it will zoom in... but it will be a blank area. Makes no difference if I switch to rear view either.
Rivoch (spelling?) station is the area in question right now but it has happened with others. If i am within it's sector it works like it should. If I am in a neighboring sector though, its a real pain in the arse.

The nav map takes some getting used to but it's functional.
Definitely one of the less user friendly things though and I would still like an option to bring up some kinda full screen nav map as well as keeping the current cockpit one.

radio_babylon · Post by **radio_babylon** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:57 am

Originally posted by Elvisman2001
I think i am getting the hang of the nav map now. And, i think i have really realized what is causing me some grief. When right clicking on certain stations, it will zoom in... but it will be a blank area. Makes no difference if I switch to rear view either.
Rivoch (spelling?) station is the area in question right now but it has happened with others. If i am within it's sector it works like it should. If I am in a neighboring sector though, its a real pain in the arse.

ive had the same problem... ive had to just jump somewhere near where i think it would be then open the map up again... yeah, its pretty irritating, but i guess as long as i dont accidentally jump into a planet or something i can work around it

Wasp89 · Post by **Wasp89** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:56 am

I have noticed this problem, and I think I may know what is causing it. Make sure that when you right click a station that you actually click on the icon and not the text. Oftentimes, especially when you are zoomed out all of the way, the text will overlap with other sectors, and so you are really zooming in on the sector which the text overlaps. Your best bet, if you can't see the station because of more text, is to click above the text for the station or to turn all of the text off momentarily (lower right hand corner of the nav screen).

tha_rami · Post by **tha_rami** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:16 am

No, the actual cause of that is that the zoom in automatically zooms in on sY = 0, where Rivoch, if I'm not mistaken, is on sY = 1. If you'd encounter that, switch to rear view and then zoom out. You'll see what I mean.

Now, that I still consider a bit odd behaviour of the game.

Yeah, the game takes getting used to, definitely, but if you get used to it, everything is there because its been tested as 'most efficient' method. We've tried gestures, 3D maps, 2D maps - anything. Which doesn't mean Vice isn't open to consider everything, so keep the ideas coming!

wolis · Post by **wolis** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:25 am

Im all for a scrollable map if its possible.

My person request re the nav map is related to the text:

1) how about bringing the text to the front (in Z order) when hovered over it.. so this way you dont need to toggle things on and off to see whats what.. just hover over a bit of the visible text. Sufficient drop-shadow on the text will make it legible if its on top.

2) anything you click on shows the same text on some other portion of the screen. Especially, or maybe only, when right-clicking on an object.

It seems quite hard identifying objects from the map.. I have to fly to it to get its name.

Or does this already happened and Im just missing it?.. Its happened before :-)

3) How about TABing through all objects on the screen?

Thanks

[Edited on 9-2-2009 by wolis]

Daedalao · Post by **Daedalao** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:38 pm

You can actually cycle the objects visible on the nav map. I believe the options are, Gates, Planets, Stations, ALL

tha_rami · Post by **tha_rami** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:46 pm

I like the idea of getting text to the front when hovering over an item, or showing the text somewhere else

.

MadBoris · Post by **MadBoris** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:48 pm

First post, so I want to first say I was surprised to hear about this game and really liked what I saw in this game. I'm an old school space simmer (wing commander,X-wing, X when it was only a benchmark, Freespace, etc) although I'm not really sure why I never got into this series, probably never crossed my radar back in the day.

I just wanted to chime in here because during the demo I was expecting to buy the game. I spent the last half hour just jumping around and I really think the nav map needs some improvement. The nav map seemed to me to be the achilles heel from buying the game because it frustrated me a bit too much. I wish could go back in and toy with the tutorial and possibly change my mind, but after my time ran out it won't even let me do that, I would have saved several seconds had I known.

I enjoy many things about the game and it's possibilities, but I wish I didn't feel like one arm was tied behind my back with the nav map. While I understand some people eventually say in this thread they have come to terms with it like elvisman2001 - "The nav map takes some getting used to but it's functional.". I disagree with the concept of functional.
Yes it is functional in the sense of learning to ride a bike with crooked handlebars or bent rims, where one can eventually adapt to it and work around it but that's far from the definition of optimal or intuitive or functional in my book. Granted, when someone has grown accustomed to riding with crooked handlebars then straightening them out can cause them to crash into a tree, but hey they can adapt.

I know there is no shortage of things to work on in a project like this but I believe this is one area that needs to catch up with the rest of the game or even take it to the next level.

As a new user with a fresh perspective, an avid gamer and a programmer I will share the points that frustrated me consistently with the nav map in hopes it can illuminate points to focus on. It was really the only area that was actually a burden and I think it takes away from the game, at least it did for me.

- Text was unreadable and mostly useless, it was all too jumbled and took away from the game, I found the text off button but I actually just want to read the text. Also, as a side note, not sure why the font looks unnecessarily emboldened everywhere (maybe a product of my high resolution).
- I was surprised not to see any rollovers in the UI at all, I see many opportunities for info rollovers that would be very welcome, especially in the nav map.
- A rollover in nav could at the very least show text on rollover, or if all the text is visible (which is really overcrowded & not functional) then at least change the z order on rollover as a quick fix.
- Zooming sticks to the ship and not the cursor, unless right clicking. But as soon as you intuitively want to zoom out one step with the wheel mouse then you are then zipped back to the ship at center, then you have to rinse and repeat and learn to balance with the bent handlebars. Zooming to the cursor would be welcome. Many UI's implement a button3 click drag, but that is only a short term fix in what I would hope can be a larger revision some day.
- I saw no legend so I couldn't identify icons, but not too critical, just a learning curve. Rollover comes to mind again though.
- The whole trial and error on how far you can jump can't be optimal considering what I see in the rest of the game, and I saw no specs that would give me a hint in counting grid blocks or anything. I'd prefer some specs but showing a jump distance ring would be a fairly quick improvement over the current implementation which currently strikes me as just lacking.

That's the major things I remember that stuck with me from yesterdays time with the demo, as to the nav map. Some of them are obvious with possibly quick fixes while others may take some time and thought.

While, I understand some others have found it's current development to be the most functional so far, all I can say to that, as with any software development, that is always true until enough time and talent is spent for the next breakthrough, which could actually be revolutionary. UI's have come a long way but they were always the best, so to speak, for the time however lacking they were. But today we are in an age where much can be done if time permits.

I don't propose to have the answers or even make specific suggestions, as a coder myself I recognize that I usually like to have more insight and spend more time thinking before throwing out specific suggestions. But I think some more R&D and a major rewrite to the Nav map would be really worthwhile for a next major build. At the very least quick fixes to movement controls and text, if not possibly something major to like a 3D minimap (it's a perf hit but GPU's from recent years can hang if implemented well). A couple sources for ideas to add to the creative stew for nav map are the fully functional 3d minimap in supcom (not the latest patches but earlier fully functional iterations for this purpose). Other ideas may come from the excellent 'Jupiter Incident' 3d map, although functionally very different than what you need it was in ways brilliant and ahead of it's time. Although those are functionally very different, it may help the creative juices flow.

I'm only adding my opinion and first impressions of someone who really likes many other things about the game like the control options with my joystick which just worked (I have to play space sims with a joystick), the flight model, immersion and possibilities, etc. I'm not here to be negative but hopefully productive as I like many things and all who are involved in the project are to be applauded for being passionate about making what appears to be filling a major gap for space sims, which are a fav. of mine. I just add this post to the list of those that have gone before me as this seems like an area that is really important to address and takes quite a bit away from the game enjoyment for me. Maybe i'll make a separate post of things I liked but I hope that helps and keep up the great work.

Elvisman2001 · Post by **Elvisman2001** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:57 pm

Originally posted by MadBoris
While I understand some people eventually say in this thread they have come to terms with it like elvisman2001 - "The nav map takes some getting used to but it's functional.". I disagree with the concept of functional.
Yes it is functional in the sense of learning to ride a bike with crooked handlebars or bent rims, where one can eventually adapt to it and work around it but that's far from the definition of optimal or intuitive or functional in my book. Granted, when someone has grown accustomed to riding with crooked handlebars then straightening them out can cause them to crash into a tree, but hey they can adapt.

Yep. That's pretty close to what I meant when i said it is "functional". You nailed it. Your post was pretty spot-on.

[Edited on 2-9-2009 by Elvisman2001]

verbosity · Post by **verbosity** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:06 pm

Originally posted by MadBoris
I wish could go back in and toy with the tutorial and possibly change my mind, but after my time ran out it won't even let me do that, I would have saved several seconds had I known.

uninstall the game, delete the sw3dg folder then reinstall, you will get your demo time back

Elvisman2001 · Post by **Elvisman2001** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:12 pm

This may be a result of me not playing the game much but i am going to throw it out here anyway.

Why couldn't the current nav map be designed so that it only shows like 2 sectors (or maybe it's quadrants. I'm probly getting my wording mixed up) around the ship? Then, having another interface (much bigger/full screen) that would bring up the entire nav map? Maybe an additional button on the current display. The bigger nav area would have all the textual options and what not and whatver additional changes. Duing a fight with that setup, couldn't you still set jump points far enough away to flee from fights?
A full screen nav map wouldn't need any scrolling.

verbosity · Post by **verbosity** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:18 pm

you can use your mouse scroll wheel to scroll in and out.......

also consider just jumping to another place in the same sector, it can work wonders

Elvisman2001 · Post by **Elvisman2001** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:21 pm

Originally posted by verbosity
you can use your mouse scroll wheel to scroll in and out.......

also consider just jumping to another place in the same sector, it can work wonders

Ok. i give up.

Daedalao · Post by **Daedalao** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:23 pm

I have to point something out here. When you've got a Fulcrum C5, that gives you 5 sectors to jump. If you jump at a heading of 45, you're actually jumping 5 sectors to move 3 sectors on that heading. One sector down, one sector over, one sector down, one sector over, one sector down. 1+1+1+1+1=5

Keep in mind that a Fulcrum C1 can jump one sector, a C2 two sectors, etc... err, I might be off, as I'm tired and in the middle of a "3d model until I pass out" session... but, I think it's right.

verbosity · Post by **verbosity** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:25 pm

Originally posted by Elvisman2001
Ok. i give up.

lol don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the nav map improved,

I'm just pointing things out, some ideas here are cool, I think some would effect gameplay, and yet no-one mentions any suggestions for displaying the fact the universe is not flat ( a major reason for most of the systems being on the 'galatic plain' )

Elvisman2001 · Post by **Elvisman2001** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:34 pm

Originally posted by verbosity
Originally posted by Elvisman2001
Ok. i give up.
lol don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the nav map improved,

I'm just pointing things out, some ideas here are cool, I think some would effect gameplay, and yet no-one mentions any suggestions for displaying the fact the universe is not flat ( a major reason for most of the systems being on the 'galatic plain' )

Oh i know.
Ever played the 'X' series of games? That universe isn't flat either.
Yet, the nav map for it has no need of being rotated and spun. If you have a toggle for objects, so that you can cut off asteroids, stations, etc. . . would there be a need to see the 3d aspect of it? If you have asteroids on top of a station, turn the station icons off and left click the asteroid belt. With a full screen nav map, maybe all the stuff for the sector could be listed on the side like the X3 nav map and you select your destination by clicking the list on the side. Or, you could click the icons on the map of course:
http://cycrow.thexuniverse.us/scripts/h ... ectpos.jpg

Muni · Post by **Muni** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:48 pm

My only suggestion for the navmap: Please make it more readable. Maybe a thiner font... I canÂ´t read the text properly even if i zoom in.

Maybe its my screen resolution (1280x800)?

MadBoris · Post by **MadBoris** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:50 pm

Originally posted by Elvisman2001
Originally posted by verbosity
Originally posted by Elvisman2001
Ok. i give up.
lol don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the nav map improved,

I'm just pointing things out, some ideas here are cool, I think some would effect gameplay, and yet no-one mentions any suggestions for displaying the fact the universe is not flat ( a major reason for most of the systems being on the 'galatic plain' )
Oh i know.
Ever played the 'X' series of games? That universe isn't flat either.
Yet, the nav map for it has no need of being rotated and spun. If you have a toggle for objects, so that you can cut off asteroids, stations, etc. . . would there be a need to see the 3d aspect of it? If you have asteroids on top of a station, turn the station icons off and left click the asteroid belt. With a full screen nav map, maybe all the stuff for the sector could be listed on the side like the X3 nav map and you select your destination by clicking the list on the side. Or, you could click the icons on the map of course:
http://cycrow.thexuniverse.us/scripts/h ... ectpos.jpg

And yet, the X nav map has been in need of an overhaul for a decade, both the universe and sector maps. It just shows that many ideas have been floating around for a long time and some ideas and solutions are obvious progression.

I really think they should go next gen, technically challenging and time consuming but incredible in it's possibilities once you make the universe map a fully functional 3d window like Supreme Commander had. Rotate 360 degrees with right mouse down, zoom in and out to cursor. Have hot buttons that zoom you to your ship if you get lost. You can use optional faint color lines attached to the galactic plain to show items that are above and below(different colors) the galactic plain. It can be done, because it's been done, it can be done without too much perf impact but it could be spectacular. That's a major rewrite though.

There is no shortage of ideas or other implementations that would work. I say do quick fixes on the small nagging issues, then set aside a block of time to R&D something really nice for down the road.

[Edited on 2-9-2009 by MadBoris]

wolis · Post by **wolis** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:51 pm

Oh yes.. one more suggestion for the nav map.. zoom in and in and in..so I can click on the station or the asteroids or the jump gate which at the max zoom so far shows them all in one spot.

If we could zoom in more we could have much finer control over the waypoint position.

Daedalao: you mention toggling on and off visibility of objects. Were you referring to their text or the visual icon of the objects? Turning off the icons as well as the text would help too.

Ok.. Im off for one last photograph of some lightning then I need to get some sleep.

MadBoris · Post by **MadBoris** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:57 pm

Originally posted by wolis
If we could zoom in more we could have much finer control over the waypoint position.

I second that, I remember specifically thinking I needed to zoom in further, then checked a couple times if there was something i was doing wrong in not being able to zoom in more. That should be a fairly easy fix too.

Edit: Now I have to go get some demo time back to make sure I will like the game enough to play, so I can support it. Thx Verbosity

[Edited on 2-9-2009 by MadBoris]

ShaggyMoose · Post by **ShaggyMoose** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:47 pm

Originally posted by Vice
It could be a bit tricky keeping track of your original sector position relative to any distant sectors you might scroll to once you slide it off the screen.[/i]

You could add a "center on me" button to return to your current sector.

Actually, anyone remember the map from Elite: Frontier? IIRC, that was a very functional 3D map that allowed full zoom, rotation, and even time advance to see the future positions of planets for course plotting. I'm not saying Vice needs to go that far, but it might be a good reference for features.

[Edited on 9-2-2009 by ShaggyMoose]

Ravenfeeder · Post by **Ravenfeeder** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:42 pm

Gotta admit, I'm not to fond of the Nav map either. The text is a bugger, yeah, I know you can switch it off. But, how about the text being off until you scroll the mouse over an object/planet/station?

Another thing, that I'd like to see, is distances, especially on Alt F2 jumps, ie: how many jumps it's going to take you to get to where you want to go to. Mind, to do that, the quadrant map would have to be clickable.

One thing I noticed about the quadrant map is that it bears no relation vis a vis its map position, and its compass position.

It's nice to hear about the mouse right click capabilities, something that isn't mentioned in the game write up. Or, if it is, I didn't see it.

Also, I've noticed that on EL, as against ER, my energy resourses for firing weapons is reduced. Sure, I know you can change the weapons/shield energy requirements with {&} - but, I'm getting slaughtered in LR in situations that I could easily handle in ER, and that's with the same ship configuration that I used in ER.

I haven't been playing much, in the last week. My wireless mouse went mad - the receiver group falling off the shelf too many times, and landing on its head, when I was in red combat - poor moose, I'll have to bury it in the garden and arrange for a piper to play "Wull ye no come back again" - for my own funeral, I want someone singing Johnny Cashs' "Burning Ring of Fire" just to upset the padre.

Incidently: How do you get the screen shots on to the forum? Mind ain't too good, but the ship looks sorta pretty

Post by **Vice** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:41 am

I've been working on some nav map improvement recently and I wanted to pose some questions on functionality. The biggest issue I've received feedback about regarding the nav map is the text, so that's what I've been focusing on at this point.

If the mouse over system only works when you are zoomed in on a sector, would that still be the preferable option? The nav map is created as a texture in memory, so keying in on icons isn't as simple as tagging icon entites. But when zoomed in, the system does allow for range checking on specific icons for the right click option, which could probably be expanded to holding the pointer over an icon for details to appear. If that's not the preferred option to you, would bigger, more spaced text be a better improvement overall?

krayzkrok · Post by **krayzkrok** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:00 am

For me, the mouse-over option would be a godsend. I much prefer the uncluttered "text off" look, but when I want to know what a specific station is it would be nice to simply rollover and get the relevant info on it.

Perhaps also, you could have a rollover for the ship that showed your current jump radius. Or perhaps your mouse cursor could differ depending on whether the area of space it's hovering over is in range or out of range.