Contracts out of system

jureidinim · Post by **jureidinim** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:35 pm

Long(ish) post warning!

Questions for Vice -

1) I saw a post on the forums where you mentioned that all contracts in the game are located within system.

While i can understand that it may be better overall to most players to have all contracts located nearby, why not allow for a small amount of missions which requires some inter system travel?

With planets now categorized - Agricultural, etc - you can have missions like carrying food from an Agricultural planet to another planet (or multiple planets) a few jumps away. Maybe so much cargo that the player has to forgo other systems to get more cargo space - go out and hire a pilot or two as escort... or go solo

Or escorting a ship from one system to the next.
(again the player could go solo or hire wingmen)

As the game offers so much diversity and open ended gameplay, I don't think it would hurt to have a few long distance contract missions - they can be in the minority (1 in every 5 listed or some such), and could be color coded to indicate it's out of system - just something else for a player to try out.

Would give something more challenging to do for the high end pilots (not me.... yet... i'm still learning..

)

2) I love doing all in the game, but I'm one of those that leans to the combat side.
Would it be possible in a future expansion to have "permanent" AI pilots that could say gain notoriety for their actions?
I always liked to play the bounty hunter role in space, and such a list could be something to help that role. I could check the list at a station, see their last known location and go hunting, claiming the set bounty if they are destroyed.
They could move around a bit making the hunt more interesting. Distress calls from other pilots can help clue into where they are in the region - etc...

I know right now you have set contract missions for taking out hostiles - but
a) These are just set piece encounters
b) No hunting involved - just jump to waypoint and fight

Anyways - just throwing these out there.. I'm at work wishing i was at home playing..

rivalin · Post by **rivalin** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:01 pm

I like the idea of those, going out of system on long journeys for a reason would be pretty cool. I don't know if anyone played EV Nova but they had missions where you could ferry people or parts long distance, there were time limits on how long you could take to get them there, so missions with tighter deadlines or to more dangerous places had higher rewards. Acting as a high value cargo courier could be fun, you could even take risky contracts transporting illegal items.

Playing a bounty hunter role would be really cool too, and it could be the other way round as well, so that if you did too much piracy etc then you could find yourself being pursued across the galaxy by bounty hunters yourself.

jureidinim · Post by **jureidinim** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:43 pm

Most of these things can be done now without contracts - a player can just decide to go on his own.... (of course the same can be said for current contracts) but i think its much better if the contracts are expanded to give these options.

Time restrictions would make for some challenges in outfitting your ship - speed over combat.
Maybe even expand damage - partial loss of cargo during combat . so you receive less pay for damaged goods delivered - even less (or none) if you miss the deadline.

(Which brings up another question - what is a "cycle" in this game? how long is it for?)

I don't know if the current news console reports on things out of system - but that is another area that can lend itself to long distance travelling without contracts.

A news item could come up indicating that X product/mineral is badly needed (will sell well) in a system (or even planet surface) which is a few jumps away. This can be incentive for traders to go for long trips as well, hiring other wingmen as escorts.

Being actively hunted by a group as you do more "damage" to them? Now that would make travel almost a neccessity as you run and hide... nowhere is safe.. lol

Berdyon · Post by **Berdyon** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:20 pm

I've actually been thinking about multi-system contracts too, like transport people (VIPs) to a certain planet or so. For me that would make it more interesting to actually go to other systems instead of hanging in Sapphire (which I tend to do).

It's simple, I like no-combat missions, and those can be found in Sapphire, in other systems it's mostly combat missions so far, and even if there would be another system that has peacefull missions, why would I go there? I like Sapphire! Now, multi-system peacefull missions though, gotten in Sapphire, going to the (for me unknown) regions of space...

jureidinim · Post by **jureidinim** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:46 pm

Originally posted by Berdyon
It's simple, I like no-combat missions, and those can be found in Sapphire, in other systems it's mostly combat missions so far, and even if there would be another system that has peacefull missions, why would I go there? I like Sapphire!

That's one of the reasons I thought of it - there isn't a lot of incentive to leave the "safety" of any system. Even systems with hostiles in it can be "safe" when doing contracts since all the destinations are just one jump away from the station/planet (well.. ok.. combat contracts are dangerous no matter where they are... heh heh).

NOTHING wrong with that.. but I think it would just be nice to see the occasional out of system mission that makes you think.. hmmm.. can I do that? Can I survive to the target system to even attempt the mission? What would i have to change on my ship to really pull that off? What route will I take? Can I make it back?

And the bounty hunter idea would be icing on the cake

.. *hint* *hint* Vice..

Post by **Vice** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:36 pm

1 - It's an intriguing idea that's been pondered before. It's been kept the current way due largely for the individuality of a system, design dependencies, and gameplay challenge. Unique local needs for various companies within a system result in offering paid contracts for those interests. Giving someone a contract to leave the system would result in a situation where they couldn't track your progress or issue actions against you if you fail or betray them. Instead, they'll want to keep you nearby so they can monitor you, good or bad. There are a lot of dependencies for the contract pool, ships, inventory, and reputation systems that would be difficult to manage for a cross contract system. Contracts are designed from the ground up to be locally based while actions between systems are designed to pay the big money and require the player to plan those actions themself (more work for more reward). I've intentionally wanted to keep contracts out of certain elements of gameplay and not be the sole focus of what the player does in the game. When the player has to explore multiple systems (and their markets, reputations, inventories, etc) themself to learn which trade routes are best, decide which items to buy/carry/transport, and plan the travel for their own decisions on where to go and what to do, then there is more challenge to it and the rewards are far greater. One of the main reasons for adding the faction reputation system was to inspire this kind of player-initiated multiple system exploration. If a player just wants to remain in safe space and let the contracts make the decisions for them (where to go, what to do, and how much to be paid), they can certainly do that, but they'll miss out on the big money/rewards and challenges in the game.

2 - Might be possible, although somewhat difficult to incorporate into the freeform design and the profile system (saving all of the who, what, where, and when's needed to support it). Although, that is something I would like to see develop in multiplayer

[Edited on 3-22-2008 by Vice]

jureidinim · Post by **jureidinim** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:13 pm

1) I agree with what you say there Vice. As this game is free form, the player can do anything they want - with or without contracts.
I am happy that your game has both options - just hoping it could be expanded to include cross system runs. *Sometimes* it feels more rewarding to go on those runs knowing its to "bring food to those in need", or "tranport the VIP", than just because i flew there to check it out

(the explorer type players may now flame me.. lol)

2) As for the bounty system - If it could be abstracted a bit - would that help?.
No need to track every single movement/action - you could just update his "piracy rating/bounty" randomly (1D6 roll.. lol) every couple of cycles and just track what system he is in (randomly having him jump around a little) and only make him real in the game when you enter the same system he is in.
Maybe just limit it to 10-15 bounty targets. When the player disposes of one, the game just randomly generates a new name/shiptype/bounty/location for tracking.

I guess another problem with the bounty system may be MultiPlayer as different player games would have different bounty lists as they would fluctuate. Maybe the host machine list would override all others for that MP session?

Sorry for the long posts - I'll soon finish my shift at work and be home playing the game and not reading the posts.... lol

Post by **Vice** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:49 pm

I am happy that your game has both options - just hoping it could be expanded to include cross system runs. *Sometimes* it feels more rewarding to go on those runs knowing its to "bring food to those in need",

True, my main point is that you can already do that now. You just have to determine where the need is yourself, what is needed, how to get there, and how much it will make you... all on your own. The exchange for that additional effort is a higher potential reward. If that information is given away in a contract, then it essentially gives away a trade route secret that the player would otherwise have to discover on their own.

You're right on the second part, synching that data for multiplayer would likely be tough, however a player managed bounty system would already be possible (rewards can even be posted on the online news headline system).

jureidinim · Post by **jureidinim** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:14 pm

Originally posted by Vice
True, my main point is that you can already do that now. You just have to determine where the need is yourself, what is needed, how to get there, and how much it will make you... all on your own. The exchange for that additional effort is a higher potential reward. If that information is given away in a contract, then it essentially gives away a trade route secret that the player would otherwise have to discover on their own.

Hmm.. i see what you are saying - but i didn't mean giving away routes or only giving players valuable routes in the contracts.
I saw the contracts listing as more of a niche system - missions put up by specialist groups - missions just to meet a certain groups local goal - not give away (game) secrets

So you could get a cross system mission to a system that you know normally is bad for trade - but this is where this mission objective is so that's where you will go.

Anyways - regardless of what the missions are - it was the cross system feature I was interested in - put in a more structured way via contracts.

Knight Rider · Post by **Knight Rider** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:48 pm

I get the impression that each system wants to do their own thing anyway. To do intersteller trade is saying that there can be an alliance when it comes to trade. Evochron was settled by mercenaries. I don't see that happening. I'm sure that each system would gladly take your credits for goods or services, or even pay you for contract work, but to have some kind of interstellar trade alliance? I wouldn't expect it. After all we are mercenaries. I like the trade system just the way it is. I love the independence. That's just my take.

rivalin · Post by **rivalin** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:31 am

Originally posted by Knight Rider
I get the impression that each system wants to do their own thing anyway. To do intersteller trade is saying that there can be an alliance when it comes to trade. Evochron was settled by mercenaries. I don't see that happening. I'm sure that each system would gladly take your credits for goods or services, or even pay you for contract work, but to have some kind of interstellar trade alliance? I wouldn't expect it. After all we are mercenaries. I like the trade system just the way it is. I love the independence. That's just my take.

I don't think anyone was talking about altering what there is now, just adding some intersystem missions, courier runs, transport missions. In any case generally the more lawless a place is the greater the trade, it's highly organised countries that tend to place trade restrictions, eg if you want to sell goods in America there are tariffs, taxes, regulations etc, whereas if you were trading in parts of Africa or South America you can basically do so without restriction. A lawless place run by mercenaries would allow trade to thrive. As for hostility between governments stopping international trade, New England continued trading with Britain during the revolutionary war, America smuggled weapons with the help of the Iranian government during the 80's etc etc etc, so the idea that trade between areas stop because of international hostilities is fairly ridiculous. Trade doesn't require "alliances" to occur, and it never has.

Keeping the system it is the way now makes sense from a technical perspective, but I can't see that there is any justification for it in the logic of the story.

Mechanical · Post by **Mechanical** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:53 am

I think that bounty feature is a great idea. The player-linked abstracted implementation mentioned by Jureidinium seems as though it would be perfectly adequate. It could be done in a similar fashion as the notable pirates in Sid Meier's Pirates!. At any one time there would be 20 or so named mercenaries at large in the universe with their bounty and whichever faction is offering it listed in the news. Invisible to the player, there could be internal data attached giving the probability that they would be in each system along with their ship type and loadout. Whether or not you run into them could just be a random calculation weighted by the probability that they would be in that system- you wouldn't necessarily even need to track their location at all.

Maybe they would have a particular cargo container that you would need to pick up (their 'corpse') after you destroy them and bring back to a station to collect your bounty.

I like the multi-player idea too. In multi-player the server just switches over to a list of players known to it and their associated 'bounty' which could work as sort of a high-score.

I have no idea if that's feasible or not but it doesn't seem too far fetched.

ed: The news could maybe use the probability data to give you a hint "Last seen in..." or "Known to frequent..." - that sort of thing.

[Edited on 3-23-2008 by Mechanical]

jureidinim · Post by **jureidinim** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:14 pm

Originally posted by Mechanical

Maybe they would have a particular cargo container that you would need to pick up (their 'corpse') after you destroy them and bring back to a station to collect your bounty.

[Edited on 3-23-2008 by Mechanical]

That would be a neat addition - showing proof of success to claim your reward.
Even if the pirate had squadmates, it would just be the "bounty" pirate that would drop the corpse.

Taking it a step further - the bounty could randomly specify payment on live capture only. Then the player may need to equip weaker weapons (or are there existing weapons that say does shield only damage?) - the idea being you beat down the armor on the pirate enough that he ejects and you pick him up (I assume all pilots have a spacesuit with some limited air). If he is destroyed, no payment received.

Knight Rider · Post by **Knight Rider** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:30 pm

Actually I like the bounty idea. Especially if it was a challenge, and if the pay off was huge. Boy, that could save me a lot of time mining. But the pay off would have to be huge compared to mining. Evochron is so rich in minerals, I'm now getting roughly 4 million a ship load from platinum. The bounty would have to be equally challenging and the reward even greater. If it was, I would chase a bounty across the universe.