Cargo still available after destruction [Legacy]

[MiaZ]

I should probably clarify.

I stated that once the pilot was marked the mark would remain until the pilot was loaded or deleted hence once you loaded that character the state will remove itself because the game would then re save without the death state applied. So in regards to Janos's comment about the effects of the state happening every time you used the character that issue wouldn't happen .

In regards too what Miaz said about switching save slots this is also not a work around because the death state is linked to the character (pilot) it doesn't matter if you change the save slot as once you click the pilot or load the game up again it will apply the death state to that pilot in the new slot until cleared by a new save (as you would have selected the character in the menu or played the character this would re save the game without the mark)

The death state would do its job while the character is being loaded into the game world yes but the mark would remain active even in the character selection screen.

The only thing I didn't account for was renamed characters as this can be done during character selection, now this is easily prevented with a simple check to see if it's marked and if so display a warning that you will loose your cargo by renaming the character.




Hope this clears up the confusion.

[Edited on 2/3/2016 by Misunderstood Wookie]

"..remain until the pilot was loaded or deleted hence once you loaded that character the state will remove itself because the game would then re save without the death state applied"

Sorry to go on about this but I just thought of another workarounds for this.
If the state is cleared upon loading character, couldn't you then just load it up to get it cleared, then quit and load up your "spare" saved game from earlier?

The way I see it this could only be done by forcing one save game only, not allow copying of saves, no backups and no cloning pilots by saving in spare slots.


You could sure make it inconvenient to go and get your stuff back for the normal player
and it maybe helps with immersion but if this is primarily to stop people exploiting,
they won't mind the inconvenient if they see it gets them millions in an overall very short time.









[Edited on 2-3-2016 by MiaZ]

[Marvin]

Before I do anything really dangerous, I exit and clone. By default, I am then using the clone. If he dies, so be it. I can go back to my original profile.

[Janus]

I should probably clarify.

I stated that once the pilot was marked the mark would remain until the pilot was loaded or deleted hence once you loaded that character the state will remove itself because the game would then re save without the death state applied. So in regards to Janos's comment about the effects of the state happening every time you used the character that issue wouldn't happen .

In regards too what Miaz said about switching save slots this is also not a work around because the death state is linked to the character (pilot) it doesn't matter if you change the save slot as once you click the pilot or load the game up again it will apply the death state to that pilot in the new slot until cleared by a new save (as you would have selected the character in the menu or played the character this would re save the game without the mark)

The death state would do its job while the character is being loaded into the game world yes but the mark would remain active even in the character selection screen.

The only thing I didn't account for was renamed characters as this can be done during character selection, now this is easily prevented with a simple check to see if it's marked and if so display a warning that you will loose your cargo by renaming the character.




Hope this clears up the confusion.

[Edited on 2/3/2016 by Misunderstood Wookie]

"..remain until the pilot was loaded or deleted hence once you loaded that character the state will remove itself because the game would then re save without the death state applied"

Sorry to go on about this but I just thought of another workarounds for this.
If the state is cleared upon loading character, couldn't you then just load it up to get it cleared, then quit and load up your "spare" saved game from earlier?

The way I see it this could only be done by forcing one save game only, not allow copying of saves, no backups and no cloning pilots by saving in spare slots.


You could sure make it inconvenient to go and get your stuff back for the normal player
and it maybe helps with immersion but if this is primarily to stop people exploiting,
they won't mind the inconvenient if they see it gets them millions in an overall very short time.

Nope, that wouldn't work, because the copied pilot would still have the death state saved. It's only cleared by loading the character which triggers destruction of all cargo. The death state clear routine won't touch the other saved characters. It would be for the loaded character only.



[Edited on 2-3-2016 by Janus]

[Vice]

Good discussion and debate. It would seem the most appropriate (and effective) option would be to incorporate some form of linked 'death state' into the online combat/destruction conditions of the game. In order for it to work at largely preventing potential exploits, it would unfortunately require the implementation of stopping cargo duplication somewhere along the line. And to retain pirate role options, that would mean the destroyed player would be forced to lose their cargo and not recover it upon respawn.

Limitations to this can be applied however. For example, I can restrict the condition to being destroyed by a human player only. So if the player is destroyed on mission when fighting AI ships, they still get their cargo back.

[Marvin]

Something like this was incorporated in the first Elite game. IIRC, the player could buy insurance to cover the loss of those items he owned. Considering how hard it is to replace some items in Legacy (like the stealth generator you might carry in cargo until you find need of it), I was wondering ....

[Janus]

Elite didn't insure your cargo (if you bought the escape capsule). Just your equipment. At least the version I played, which was Elite Plus.

[Vice]

I am considering a system that works like this, at least as a temporary solution:

- If a human player destroys another human player, the cargo lost is not recovered upon respawning.

- If a player jettisons their cargo bay and is then destroyed, the cargo is not recovered upon respawning.

What are you thoughts on such a system?

[starschulz]

It is an awkward scenario for me when i loose an important module to combat damage and i would rather die so i respawn with all my gear instead of living with the loss. At the same time though, i like the fact that i am not risking everything i own by trying my skill at combat.

[Bodega]

I think it should mainly be kept the way it is. Like others have said, it takes a bit to exploit it. I hate durability because, IMO, it just gets tedious and annoying to constantly repair stuff. Let's not punish the players who play fair becasuse of a few people that may exploit this and if it's taken away, they'll find another way to do it. Equipment really isn't that hard to get, it's not that expensive.

People can just reload other saves, reload a cloned profile.

Vice: So you're saying that either way, if I die to another player I lose my cargo and they get it. If I jettison it and I'm then destroyed, I lose it? I guess it works, make PvP that much more risky. Just make sure you have a backup of your save before going into combat. I like the idea that I can go fight and don't have to worry that much, make it more fun but not as real I guess.

Also, could this be a server option, for hardcore servers and then you can have casual servers?

[Edited on 2-3-2016 by Bodega]

[Brian Paone]

I'm fine with losing my cargo if destroyed. I'd be a lot less careless around asteroids, and 95% of the time I find I'm carrying something I can easily replace in 10 minutes or so of mining.

As to the other 5%, I make a beeline directly for my stash, pay close attention the whole way, and make sure none of the cats are around to pounce on my keyboard and kill me.

This change also wouldn't effect exploration in the slightest, because there's no information for me to lose if I die like there is in Elite Dangerous. I write down coords as I get 'em.

I love the idea of it being a serverside option. That way, for people who aren't really interested in dying or even grinding up cash, they can still have a casual place to go where everyone has Terrain Walkers, people throw ducks at balloons, and nothing is as it seems...

[Vice]

Whatever option that is implemented will likely be default at first, even if added as a server adjustable option later on. So consider this a global condition, at least at first.

Another factor to consider is that this won't impact accidental destruction of your ship (running into an asteroid for example). This is only for a human player destroying another human player or jettisoning cargo then getting destroyed.

[Janus]

This sounds like a good idea to me. Of course, I don't want to lose cargo, but then I don't want to be destroyed either. But if I am destroyed and my cargo drops, we both, the killer and myself, should not get the benefits of it. I wouldn't want any mounted equipment to be destroyed, but if it's in the cargo bay, well, be more cognizant of those who are around you and hit the Alt-F8 maximum range jump if you come under fire.

[Vice]

Exactly, it would be just for cargo only and it would result in increasing the importance of defensive escape options.

[Marvin]

Well, this discussion has brought to mind the fact any station can be destroyed in MP. Ergo, I have moved all my really important stored items to SP. Of course, if Vice ever adds the ability of AI to destroy a station in SP, all bets are off. Either way, I prefer realism ... even if it means having to bite the bullet.

[Sinbad]

I like this idea. I've always been leaning more towards realism than towards easy gameplay. The possibility that a pirate attack could have real consequences makes space that little bit more dangerous, and actually quite fun. You will need to be more careful when you have 10 cargo bays full of precious metals, checking your radar frequently and plotting safer routes to get back to an autosave in a station.

[Brian Paone]

Well, this discussion has brought to mind the fact any station can be destroyed in MP. Ergo, I have moved all my really important stored items to SP. Of course, if Vice ever adds the ability of AI to destroy a station in SP, all bets are off. Either way, I prefer realism ... even if it means having to bite the bullet.

I wonder if one could make a private server just for oneself as a "storehouse" of sorts for all the best goodies?

[Marvin]

Why? No server would be as easy to maintain or as safe as single player for storing your acquisitions.

[Vice]

Ok, I may hold off on implementing any such changes for the next update, which I hope to have ready within the next day or so. I'll continue to gather feedback/requests and then review it again for the following update.

[Bodega]

Thanks Vice for your due diligence towards this matter. It makes sense to have some sort of reward/penalty for a core game mechanic such as piracy. Let's all give this some serious consideration because we don't want to make a decision that proves to be confusing or ineffective.

That's one thing I love about this community, the ability to have a rational debate on the merits of each idea. Some other communities are so toxic this would have turned into a flame/troll war with the thread being locked and the developer hiding because of the immaturity he/she had to deal with.

Let's keep the ideas coming, you may have an idea no one else has thought of. And if it's a stupid idea, we'll just make fun of you

[matchbox2022]

I emailed vice a little further on this issue, but after exploring it and found a pretty big hole, chose to keep it off/forum private due to the nature of this exploit. It has the potential to really break the game since there are "people" involved not just NPCs.
Turns out it's a fairly complicated , so hopefully that patch rolls on out.

On another note / similar.
How does everyone feel about high speed jettisons in order to avoid being shot while doing "drop this item off in this box" missions? Or would u want the game to force / tell you to stop moving when jettisoning?
I personally feel that would be more realistic...since jettisoning now lets the game attempt and autosave...but it fails.

[Misunderstood Wookie]

Sorry I'd I haven't read everything posted after my idea was.

On my phone to write this.

Hey vice what about something like this.

The death state is applied to human death and if you jettison your cargo while in combat with a human. This gives the player the opportunity to jettison cargo willingly for role play or to attempt to recover it again by return fire while it's being picked up.. Additionally the mark applies for combat scenarios with a simple check to avoid grief or accidentally killing a player, so a percent of dmg would have to have been by a human to count for a death state.

This would ultimately allow for friendly fire kill and not count as a pvp kill.

I also am in the boat I would rather discuss this fully then do something which is a quick fix but angers the legit players.

That's why I'm thinking if we go with the death state there has to be in place a dmg counter so the majority of the hits would have to come from human players otherwise it will not mark your character.

You know another thought I had was if you are killed by a player in your group or fleet or someone who's an ally in the rep system cargo won't be dropped on death, yes I can see this being exploited as the mark won't apply for this situation, now I had a think about that too and what if you just prevent cargo drops from allied kills but allow cargo trade via the trade options when you trade it keeps track of the stuff traded and doesn't return it back if you try and dupe it by reloading the save. By not allow drops I mean cargo can't be picked up by players friendly to your faction all trades would have to be done via the proper trade men which would actually globally keep record of the transactions.



I try explain easier. Trading cargo triggers a save and also a cargo manifest which is global thus reloading your save wont give you what you traded back. The death mark is still a good plan for dealing with the main dupe but it must be accompanied by a percentile of dmg dealt from humans to count as this makes it safe for players who get killed due to friendly fire.

Personally in in the realism boat too. I'd rather fix the dupe and display a warning when going on mp reminding people they it has its consequences.

However I still think a no fire zone in my is a good idea too to prevent spawn kill, that's easy done.. That's just not allowing player kills in the starting zones.


Anyone have thoughts on these ideas?


[Edited on 2/4/2016 by Misunderstood Wookie]

[Edited on 2/4/2016 by Misunderstood Wookie]

[MiaZ]

As long as I don't lose the installed equipment on my ship when I die in combat I'll be happy.


While we are here, there is another hole related to death, that might be able to be fixed.

It is about death and missiles.
Currently when you die you are given a full auto reload of all your missiles.
This turns out to be kind of unbalanced in PvP.








[Edited on 2-4-2016 by MiaZ]

[Iron man]

As long as I don't lose the installed equipment on my ship when I die in combat I'll be happy.


While we are here, there is another hole related to death, that might be able to be fixed.

It is about death and missiles.
Currently when you die you are given a full auto reload of all your missiles.
This turns out to be kind of unbalanced in PvP.








[Edited on 2-4-2016 by MiaZ]

+1

[Misunderstood Wookie]

+1

If it's just easier I'd settle for cargo insurance and cargo wipe on death lol. Seems to solve players issues with cargo deletion.

[Marvin]

+1

If it's just easier I'd settle for cargo insurance and cargo wipe on death lol. Seems to solve players issues with cargo deletion.

And a lot less complicated.