New Frames & Inventory Console Features

Post by **DaveK** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:54 pm

In the No Man's Sky thread (http://www.starwraith.com/forum/viewtop ... #pid172980) someone raised the way hyperdrive travel might appear to the pilot. While I've been writng a Evoverse story, I've been thinking about EM jump and gate travel. Although the present system speeds up game play, I think there are some options for making it feel more realistic and increase immersion. At the moment we can traverse the Evoverse in less than five minutes, 'earn' 40+ million credits a minute trading certain routes and complete 60 contracts per hour (all averages;)).

So, wrt jumping, I'd like to explore the idea of the jump engine requiring a charge up time. They may require it even if you are going through a gate in order to handle the gate energies imposed on your ship. Or the gate may require a charge up time when a ship approaches for a jump. Perhaps an extra energy boost is required to stabilise the wormhole when a ship traverses it over and above the energy required just to maintain the wormhole between transits. The ship would approach and stop and wait for the green2go signal. There could/should also be the jump visual sequence lasting for a time proportional to the distance being travelled (like ST and SG1 hyperspace travel - in fact even SG gate travel!). It would stop the unrealistic ability to jump from one side of the Evoverse to the other in under five minutes which makes it quicker to traverse the core than traverse a system by jumping!

Combat (micro)jumps within a system could use a pre-charged, short distance (in sector) jump 'battery' (available as an optional extra for those of you who engage in heavy combat scenarios) to avoid messing with 'microjumps as a combat technique' - you could jump on demand whenever required in combat.

I know that system to system jumps would take longer, but they already take a long time if you don't use a gate, as when looking for or visiting uncharted systems. Perhaps gates could increase hyperspace travel speed of (say) 10x a jump drive (whatever gives a working balance between jump drives and gates), whilst jump drives have a fairly short jump per sector time, but you would have to add the recharge time between each jump. Bigger jump engines (like the Mantis) just save the recharge time by making them less frequent and so would still be very worth upgrading.

Although short, instant demand, jump times make game play quick, they also take an aspect of planning and immersion out of the play. I think that longer jump times would make systems feel further apart, increase immersion and add a feel of realism. (yeah, yeah - I know - realistic hyperjumps!

)

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:26 pm

Well, it's been said but I'll had my 2 cents in.
I'd like to see more opportunities to explore in charted and uncharted systems and find a larger variety of "things", (I'm not very imaginative tonight but) ranging from:

(1) New and unknown "power substances" and things that perhaps (if possible) when sold to a Station can maybe become a "known" commodity, although I see the limitation/problems of expanding the stations commodity list (as viewed in the News Console).
And once found and sold then perhaps they can become an infrequent but present commodity for station Contracts (deliver or find/return or transport to another planet or system that needs the New Commodity.

(2) Ability to "find" a person of importance (and have some kind of discussion with said person) and transport the person to a station (in a cargo slot please in deep sleep), since some people may not have any free crew slots and no military frames would. (To me the Discussion aspect is important to lend some additional flavor to the game. I know it would have to be limited but I think it could also be done in a way to allow say 3 or 4 branches that the discussion could take and doesn't have to be very complex, just reasonably realistic. I think even the Person making statements/asking questions and the player selecting from a choice of 3 or 4 responses would be at least some form of interaction.
As I've said before, I like the female voice that says "Welcome fellow Mercenary" but, I can't give a reply "Thanks, good to see you", and maybe a 2nd response from her/him "Take care in this system". That would be cool to me.

(3) How about Salvage, perhaps on occasion you come across a wrecked ship (from combat or whatever). Not during/after a contract. You would just come across this defunct ship in your explorations and you could salvage things like it's Weapons, Fuel tank, Engine, Shield Generator in your cargo bay and sell them to a station

In other words just more things to do, both as contracts and just in the course of exploring - mainly the latter - things you can just come across in all systems.

Post by **Marvin** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 12:19 am

Number three already exists. Next time you run across some wreckage, get close and then check your radar for the purple dot.

Sinbad · Post by **Sinbad** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:40 pm

From post: 172983, Topic: tid=10221, author=DaveK wrote: So, wrt jumping, I'd like to explore the idea of the jump engine requiring a charge up time.[/quote]

I personally wouldn't like this idea if it means having to wait longer in between each jump. That would make long distance trips too tedious.

There could/should also be the jump visual sequence lasting for a time proportional to the distance being travelled (like ST and SG1 hyperspace travel - in fact even SG gate travel!). It would stop the unrealistic ability to jump from one side of the Evoverse to the other in under five minutes which makes it quicker to traverse the core than traverse a system by jumping!
That would be a nice addition... perhaps if the jump time lasted longer, that might make up for the extra waiting time in between jumps.

I think that longer jump times would make systems feel further apart, increase immersion and add a feel of realism. (yeah, yeah - I know - realistic hyperjumps! )

Agreed. If the jump time and accompanying visual sequence were longer, proportional to the distance, it would increase immersion, making it feel that you were traversing truly vast expanses of open space.

Post by **DaveK** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:18 pm

From post: 173001, Topic: tid=10221, author=Marvin wrote: Number three already exists. Next time you run across some wreckage, get close and then check your radar for the purple dot.

I think Paul is thinking about removing bits of the wreck rather than containers in it. From the wrecks I've seen it looks a lot like previous vultures have beaten him to it!

Post by **Marvin** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:19 pm

The only problem with having a longer jump take longer time is if the mechanics of the jump depend on generating a worm hole ... which is different from FTL (Buck Rogers' Faster Than Light drive). Worm holes cut the distance between any two points in space to zero ... no matter how far apart those two points might be. Ergo, the time factor would only depend on how long it takes to enter and exit the worm hole. Unless Asimov had a different explanation ... I'll need to go back and read Foundations again, I guess.

Post by **DaveK** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:36 pm

From post: 173037, Topic: tid=10221, author=Marvin wrote: The only problem with having a longer jump take longer time is if the mechanics of the jump depend on generating a worm hole ... which is different from FTL (Buck Rogers' Faster Than Light drive). Worm holes cut the distance between any two points in space to zero ... no matter how far apart those two points might be. Ergo, the time factor would only depend on how long it takes to enter and exit the worm hole. Unless Asimov had a different explanation ... I'll need to go back and read Foundations again, I guess.

Have a look at the Terran Trade Authority books! They have stuff about folding and unfolding space & time.

SG1, ST and a few others manage to have longer than instantaneous travel times. Stargate even has wormholes between the gates. The gates need time for the chevrons to load but there is definitely a travel time between the gates.

I'll have to go and have another read about wormhole travel - I'm not so sure that it happens in zero time - more that the wormholes can link two places in the universe with a shorter route than travelling in real space

Fun stuff though.

Post by **DaveK** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:29 pm

Done a bit of research: Here are three typical descriptions. Though none suggest a speed inside a wormhole, they all infer that you travel just like you do in normal space but through a shortcut. Travelling the 'long way round' would take much longer and hence you could beat a light beam going the long way and so seem to travel faster than light! but as the first source says, a light beam using the wormhole with you would beat you hands down

1: Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole#T ... _wormholes
The impossibility of faster-than-light relative speed only applies locally. Wormholes might allow superluminal (faster-than-light) travel by ensuring that the speed of light is not exceeded locally at any time. While traveling through a wormhole, subluminal (slower-than-light) speeds are used. If two points are connected by a wormhole whose length is shorter than the distance between them outside the wormhole, the time taken to traverse it could be less than the time it would take a light beam to make the journey if it took a path through the space outside the wormhole. However, a light beam traveling through the wormhole would always beat the traveler. As an analogy, sprinting around to the opposite side of a mountain at maximum speed may take longer than walking through a tunnel crossing it.

2: Source - http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_sp_sl.html
A wormhole is not really a means of going faster than light (or backward or forward in time); it's a shortcut so that something that was far away is much closer. You can think of an ant on a piece of paper. If that ant could fold the paper around and poke a hole through it, it could get to the far end much faster than if it just walked. That's what a wormhole does in 3D space.

3: Source - http://www.physlib.com/worm_holes.html
So when you travel through a worm hole you don't really travel faster then light, since what you really do is to "cheat" space-time, so you're not really travelling through our familiar 3 dimensions but taking a short cut in the fourth dimension called hyperspace.

Imagine a circle and that the outline is the normal three dimensions that we move in. Now if you want to get from one side of the circle to the other and only move in the outline(our three dimensions) you would get to the other side much slower then some one that travelled straight through the circle(through the fourth dimension) and the one that moved through the circle didn't even have to move faster then you! The outline of the circle represents space time, which is the thing on which every thing in the universe exists. And it's when you warp this spacetime into little pockets on two different places, the place were you are and the place were you want to go, and then connect those two pockets to create a tunnel between the two different places that you get a wormhole. Also note that the universe doesn't have to be circular in order for wormholes to occur. It could be flat, bent or have any shape it want.

Post by **Marvin** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:44 pm

I've never heard the circumference v.s. diameter analogy before. Most descriptions talk about dots on opposite sides of a piece of paper ... then folding ("warping") the paper so that the two dots coincide. That being the case, it wouldn't matter how far apart the dots would be prior to the paper being warped ... the warping effect puts them right next to each other.

Busch · Post by **Busch** » Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:24 pm

Sr. M. Alcubierre had some thoughts along these lines as well. IIRC, it was either space folding between the incept/egress points, or the actual/mechanical generation of a blackhole or wormhole, 'in front' of the translating ship/object. The ship/object would then 'fall towards' the generated event horizon. I don't recall if the 'speeds' involved/described was sub or supraluminal. IIRC, the time element is/was infinitesimally short between the points, but measureable never the less. I'll have to check my sources, as I may be confusing Alcubierre's work with another source. I've seen the 'circle space' analogy before, and it was as well put then as Dave has described here.

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:21 am

From post: 173036, Topic: tid=10221, author=DaveK wrote:
From post: 173001, Topic: tid=10221, author=Marvin wrote: Number three already exists. Next time you run across some wreckage, get close and then check your radar for the purple dot.
I think Paul is thinking about removing bits of the wreck rather than containers in it. From the wrecks I've seen it looks a lot like previous vultures have beaten him to it!

What I really had in mind are things like this:
You are flying along and you see a Radar blip (not the purple blip), a ship. And then in the Target Display you see a Ship as usual, but, is has no Faction and instead says something like Abandoned or Salvage or Dead. And it is dead in space except maybe it rotating like an asteroid.
And you can move in close and use the tractor beam to salvage equipment to your cargo bay - but not just what's in the Equip and cargo bay and hardpoint slots but yoy can salvage it's Engine, Shield core, Wings, Fuel tank and sell them at a station. Derelict - that's the word I want.
Some AI pilot ran out of fuel and died in space or a Vonari even, just derelicts you come across from time to time in space.

I'd really like to see more, new things you can (1) come across and recover (2) expanded contract types os new things but not extremely commonplace. Just a lot more variety of things to find and do.
I don't have to say that Mining gets a bit common place after a while and so do the regular contracts.
And that's why I said some AI dialog would add some flavor to the mix.
How about some archaeological finds to tractor and deliver to a New specific couple of places (planets or stations) that only do that type of research and you are paid a fee.
It could be Animal, Ancient race, Ancient unknown equipment ( that could advance technology in the game after a while) and perhaps on occasion it could lead to an item called the Marvin Wormhole Generator or the Davek Subspace Cloak or the PaulB Subnuclear Energy Booster that just integrate into your current Frame or something - just as a brain storm.

Just new things to do and see and interact with.

[Edited on 9-10-2014 by PaulB]

Post by **Marvin** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:00 am

Considering the size of the Evoverse, really rare items would need to be part of a quest ... else it's unlikely anyone would ever find them.

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:52 am

From post: 173084, Topic: tid=10221, author=Marvin wrote: Considering the size of the Evoverse, really rare items would need to be part of a quest ... else it's unlikely anyone would ever find them.

I didn't mean that they would be that rare - just not the frequency of regular station items or the minerals in asteroids.
There could be several "new things" per system and look at all the Help calls. So any Fair or Moderate or Hostile system woujld be likely to have more frequent derelicts than say a Good system.
I didn't invision New things that you had to jump to only certain systems to find. They could be everywhere - in charted and uncharted systems alike.
You just would not find frequent derelict ships scattered all over a system - just as you don't find Containers all over a system.
Now with all the planets there could be more opportunities for archaeological finds.
Many of the New things just should not be things you run across everywhere you look - so that they don't become a common occurrence like mining asteroids - but also not scarce like trying to find a Mantis drive.

[Edited on 9-10-2014 by PaulB]

Post by **Marvin** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:23 pm

The H2GE quest (Part 1) directs you to where you can almost always find a Mantis (somebody found one yesterday on the MP server). As for abandoned ships and anything else worth salvaging ... to do it right, you'd need to take into consideration other ships: they, too, would be interested in salvage. Especially if the wreck was the result of an attack. Which means: more complex AI behavior. Of which I am all in favor ... starting with AI attacks on TWs.

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:39 pm

From post: 173093, Topic: tid=10221, author=Marvin wrote: The H2GE quest (Part 1) directs you to where you can almost always find a Mantis (somebody found one yesterday on the MP server). As for abandoned ships and anything else worth salvaging ... to do it right, you'd need to take into consideration other ships: they, too, would be interested in salvage. Especially if the wreck was the result of an attack. Which means: more complex AI behavior. Of which I am all in favor ... starting with AI attacks on TWs.

Maybe as long as they couldn't gang up on you and couldn't use missiles. After all, a TW can't evade - unless maybe there is water around - I wonder what would happen in that situation? I would think neither sides guns could do much of anything in/through water. Lasers certainly couldn't in real life and we know what bullets do in water.
It would cool if the TW could use the guns to shoot out a cave in the side of a hill to hide in.

[Edited on 9-10-2014 by PaulB]

Post by **Marvin** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:49 am

Most AI won't descend far enough to where you can use your TW's gun to shoot them down while wading around in water. Normally, you need to engage the AI from a mountain.

Post by **DaveK** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:39 pm

From post: 173046, Topic: tid=10221, author=Marvin wrote: I've never heard the circumference v.s. diameter analogy before. Most descriptions talk about dots on opposite sides of a piece of paper ... then folding ("warping") the paper so that the two dots coincide. That being the case, it wouldn't matter how far apart the dots would be prior to the paper being warped ... the warping effect puts them right next to each other.

Or at least much closer together so the journey time is vastly reduced.

Macarthur · Post by **Macarthur** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:03 pm

Greetings! I have something that I'd like to suggest changes to; Probes.

I come from an unhealthy amount of EVE Online, so I'm rather fond of sitting around and using Long Range Probes and the like to isolate celestial bodies, ships, etc. That being said, I know that something like that would be quite difficult to code, but it seems to me that the probes in their current state are rather useless, so I have a suggestion as to how to make them more useful.

What if instead of their current behavior, probes were dumbfired, with enough fuel to last the duration of the timer given when they're activated, And you could use the Nav map to track them as well as what they're spotting. This could be useful in finding planets, stars, in addition to ships, cargo, etc. In an effort to balance this, perhaps their effective range could be dropped to 10k, instead of the 25k they're currently at.

I'm open to suggestions on how the community would improve my idea, and if anyone knows anything I don't about probes or other methods of discovery, I'd love to hear more.

Thank you for your time.
- M

Post by **Marvin** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:59 pm

Well, there are two types of probes: deployed, which cover a fairly large area, and launched, which cover a smaller area. Neither probe can be used or sent outside of the sector to "spy" on other sectors ... which, in EM, would be of little value anyway since enemy ships don't "advance" from one sector to another. Ergo, an early warning system is unnecessary. Nonetheless, they could be used as a tool for exploring the vastness of space, searching for new star systems. But, considering the amount of empty space in the Evoverse ...?

Macarthur · Post by **Macarthur** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:54 pm

From post: 173582, Topic: tid=10221, author=Marvin wrote:Well, there are two types of probes: deployed, which cover a fairly large area, and launched, which cover a smaller area. Neither probe can be used or sent outside of the sector to "spy" on other sectors

Are you referring to sensor stations and probes launched from hardpoints, respectively? If so, I am indeed aware of both of those. I'm just wanting something a bit more long distance. Yes, I want it mainly for exploration, because I'd like a more intuitive, in-game method of finding planets that didn't involve running around looking at light reflections. It wouldn't even need that much of a range, really. Just something within a single jump of a Mantis Drive would suffice.

Post by **Marvin** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:33 am

From post: 173583, Topic: tid=10221, author=Macarthur wrote: Yes, I want it mainly for exploration, because I'd like a more intuitive, in-game method of finding planets that didn't involve running around looking at light reflections.

What kind of range would you want for your probe? I ask because it would need to cover about 80 sectors or more ... unless you plan to ignore all the planets which are out of plane.

Macarthur · Post by **Macarthur** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:46 pm

Ideally, have it go 10 sectors, so you could see the entire probe's report on the navmap, and if it gets a hit, you can jump to it in 1 jump with a Mantis. I'm not wanting anything too overpowered, but as it stands probes are rather useless outside of locating containers in a sector.

Post by **Marvin** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:55 pm

Probes are also quite helpful in finding contracted targets who have bugged out and away from the combat area. As for exploration, it's been a long, long time since I took a class in statistics and probability but, just wagging it, I'd say the chances of finding a new planet with a probe (even one with a 10-sector range) are very low. Especially since many planets are 40 sectors or more either above or below the galactic plane.

Macarthur · Post by **Macarthur** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:20 pm

Well, basically my goal is to find my own 'new' planet that no one's discovered before. I figure a LOT of the void/unnamed space is still largely unexplored, so I got a good shot of that, so long as I can get trilateration figured out. I've been tinkering around with Atollski's navtool, but I really have no idea what I'm doing.

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:25 pm

From post: 173597, Topic: tid=10221, author=Macarthur wrote:Well, basically my goal is to find my own 'new' planet that no one's discovered before. I figure a LOT of the void/unnamed space is still largely unexplored, so I got a good shot of that, so long as I can get trilateration figured out. I've been tinkering around with Atollski's navtool, but I really have no idea what I'm doing.

Then this Trilateration Tool might come in handy!

http://evochron2.junholt.se/main/planetsearch3.htm