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Tips, tactics, and general discussion for Evochron Legacy.
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Post by DynamicRanger »

Contraband and Smuggling

I've mentioned player-driven smuggling somewhat briefly in the suggestions thread, so instead of cluttering that thread, I figured I would go into more detail here. I want to demonstrate how the concept could add a lot of longevity and depth to the core gameplay, without requiring excessive adjustments to game assets or playstyles. I hope to convince more people that including this feature would improve the game. I want to generate enthusiasm for player-centric smuggling, so Vice might consider adding it in an update or future game.

If this post reads like one of Vice's posts, I mean no disrespect--I'm just very passionate about EM generally and this game concept specifically. If there is interest among the community, I'd like this idea to have every chance to succeed, and succeed well. To that effect, I'll gladly provide whatever help I can to make this happen.

Black Market Economics

In essence, contraband trade goods would have a much wider range of prices depending on where they are bought and sold. A cargo-hold of whiskey may be bought as cheaply as food at the planet-bound city that houses the distillery, but sell for as much as Antimatter units to a black marketeer on a distant space station.

As a general rule, the more settled core systems (Sapphire, Virgo, Olympus, etc.) would have more banned goods, driving up the sell prices. Basically, the economic map is inverted for the purposes of selling contraband. Since smuggling will carry risks, a pilot will want to be confident in their ship's combat performance before starting a career as a smuggler. In gameplay terms, smuggling would provide an excellent motivation for moving coreward later in the game.

The main feature of the pricing of contraband is not necessarily high sell prices, but a wide differential between source and destination. Even in locations where they are banned, black market goods may not have the highest sell prices, but compared to their cost at the source, they have the highest profit margin.

Policing

The risk associated with smuggling will be enforced by patrol ships that stake out points-of-sale like trade stations and cities, and in some systems, even the gates. This police force could be a separate faction, or a detachment of the local Navy faction. In practical terms, I propose a single ship at trade points tasked with making a close, predictable circuit around the station. If a ship carrying contraband comes within cargo scanning range of the ship, the ship will become hostile and summon more ships, depending on the amount of contraband detected. This is a rough guess, but I'm imagining the police ship fights the smuggler one-on-one if they have one cargo slot of cotraband and for each additional cargo slot of contraband, two more ships arrive. So:

1 cargo slot = 1 enemy ship
2 cargo slots = 3 enemy ships
3 cargo slots = 5 enemy ships
4 cargo slots = 7 enemy ships
etc.

If a player triggers police hostility, they may jettison all contraband to return the enemy ship to yellow status. The contraband cargo will be confiscated or destroyed by the police patrol. If the player defeats the interdiction ships, they can continue on their way until another patrol arrives (more than enough time to sell the contraband or escape the area).

Contraband Goods

I think a few new trade goods should be added that would have limited legality.

- Alcohol: Produced primarily on planet surfaces and available for purchase at planetary settlements, alcohol would be contraband at most space stations. Alcohol is banned in warzones.

- Narcotics: Essentially alcohol in reverse, narcotics are produced aboard space stations where they are legal and have low cost. On planet surfaces (even relatively close ones) the drugs are contraband and sell for much greater sums. Narcotics are banned in warzones.

- Firearms: Firearms would follow the basic smuggling pattern: produced and sold cheaply and freely in frontier systems, but banned and more costly in core worlds. Firearms aren't banned in warzones, but aren't necessarily cheap, either, as they are in high demand and not produced there.

- Organs: Not the musical instruments found in churches, but the squishy kind. An organ smuggler is probably not moving stolen, or even harvested organs, but vat-grown ones. Even so, enforcing strict regulations discourages a wide-scale organ market and ensures safe, ethical organ replacement. It also drives up the cost and provides lucrative opportunities to the brave and unscrupulous. Organs follow the standard contraband pattern. Like firearms, organs are in high demand in warzones, making them both legal to sell and somewhat high value.

In addition to the new black market goods, I suggest some tweaks to existing goods, to reflect their part in a black market economy.

- Biological Units: Biological units are banned in systems to which they aren't native. The further one travels from the source planet of the biological units, the greater the price they can get for them. Even a single gate jump away from the source renders the biological units contraband.

- Weapon Systems: Destructive weapons systems (missiles, particle guns and lasers) are contraband in many or most trade locations in the core systems (Sapphire/Thuban and immediate surrounding systems), although they can be traded more or less freely in more remote systems and warzones.

- Antimatter Units: Due to its volatility and destructive potential, antimatter is banned in the general pattern (banned, with a high black market price in core worlds, cheaper and freely traded in more distant systems).

Which Model?

I'd like to get some ideas for the potential application of bans on certain goods. I've considered two basic models: system-wide and station-to-station.

In the system wide model, trade bans are shared between all installations in a given system. I'm leaning away from this model, because the definition of a "star system" in EM can be rendered very loose by traveling the long way. Additionally, the space vs. planet legality I outlined in the narcotics and alcohol descriptions would be eliminated, or made a special exception.

In the station-to-station model, the rule of thumb that more goods are banned in core worlds would not be set in stone. This adds complexity to actually implementing the system, but opens up interesting trade opportunities between and within star systems. Also, player-built stations could enforce bans on any or all of the black market goods, allowing players another powerful tool to influence the game's economy.

Another question I have regarding the contraband model would be the method of selling. On the one hand, the police patrol may be the first and last line of defense at a given trading location; once the player safely reaches the dock, they can sell the goods like any other. Another, more in-depth concept is requiring the player to enter the station and arrange the trade "in person".

I prefer the second option because it lends complexity and distinction to trading illegal goods and also opens the way for a "Space Bar", another feature I'd like to see implemented. This illicit exchange scenario could entail unpredictable outcomes, like a police raid and having to fight your way away from the station when you depart. The first option, however, would be easier to implement, less time-consuming for players, and flow more smoothly with the game's existing trade rhythm. Another consideration is that a player with a fast or heavily shielded ship could run the blockade put up by the interdiction force--whether this is an interesting choice for players or simply a way to cheat the system is probably a matter of taste. An ambitious smuggler may start a career early and rely on their speed and maneuverability instead of combat readiness, but gain a nice payout compared to other early-game low-risk tasks.



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The economy map inverted. Green is high sell value (illegal), red is low sell value (legal). Warzones have their own common trade restrictions.



Any thoughts, suggestions, encouragement, discouragement or criticisms are welcome!

[Edited on 7-28-2013 by DynamicRanger]
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Post by Rubber Chicken »

No offense, but I don't want drugs or alcohol in Evochron. Why do people think that games need to have a 'debauched' aspect to make them good?
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Post by DaveK »

From post: 163598, Topic: tid=10925, author=Rubber Chicken wrote:No offense, but I don't want drugs or alcohol in Evochron. Why do people think that games need to have a 'debauched' aspect to make them good?
To be fair I think Dynamic Ranger is identifying substances that are 'debauched' exactly because they are going to be illegal. Smuggling cupcakes doesn't have the same evil ring about it.

:)
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Post by DynamicRanger »

I didn't intend the contraband goods to debauch the game, or really have any reflection on the setting/lore. I was just considering goods that would reasonably have wide variation in their supply, demand and regulation between space-based, planet-based and warzone locations. While I agree with DaveK about the evil ring of cupcakes, I'd be more interested in smuggling them than nothing at all.
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Post by Marvin »

Guild and Rebel pilots engage in murder on a daily basis. You can hire or be hired by another mercenary to do the same. Having said that, I'm more impressed with the map ... really clean looking. Good job.
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Post by DaveK »

From post: 163600, Topic: tid=10925, author=DynamicRanger wrote:While I agree with DaveK about the evil ring of cupcakes, I'd be more interested in smuggling them than nothing at all.
Perhaps to dissidents on the fundamentalist planet governed by the 'Haaats' - the Holey Alliance Against All Things Sugary :P

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Post by Rubber Chicken »

I understand what you're saying, and many have wanted a more intricate economy in EM for a long time, but really most of this sounds straight out of X3. Maybe I can help you petition them (the devs) to offer a 'seamless' universe with atmospheric entries and combat/flight dynamics that aren't mediocre at best.



[Edited on 7-28-2013 by Rubber Chicken]
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Post by DynamicRanger »

So Rubber Chicken doesn't like it. Anyone else have any thoughts?

Regarding the map, if you want to try it out, it's included in the final release of my ThinHUD, along with the blank and territory variants.
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Post by Busch »

There are certain in-game items now, which may be considered as black-market items. The Guilders and Rebs seem to have been created with the idea of a black-market economy already in full-swing in the Evo-verse. Albeit, not as well published, or possibly under-explored/exploited by your 'normal' pilot career path. Some of what DynoRanger suggests may even be incorporated into a Quest of some sort. There's certainly enough material to work with here. Maybe Vice would be willing to take suggestions like this for what ever the next Mercs is going to become. A Freebooter/Corsair of some sort, one might imagine. :)
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Post by Maarschalk »

From post: 163599, Topic: tid=10925, author=DaveK wrote:
From post: 163598, Topic: tid=10925, author=Rubber Chicken wrote:No offense, but I don't want drugs or alcohol in Evochron. Why do people think that games need to have a 'debauched' aspect to make them good?
To be fair I think Dynamic Ranger is identifying substances that are 'debauched' exactly because they are going to be illegal. Smuggling cupcakes doesn't have the same evil ring about it.

:)
I agree with Rubber Chicken (In it self that is relatively difficult. Agreeing with a Rubber Chicken that is!:P)

Drugs or Alcohol in Evochron might give the game a different rating keeping certain age groups away and making their parents worried to let their kids play the game!......;)
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Post by Cindy »

The weapon smuggling... might be ok with me... but beer and drugs? I honestly wouldn't want my younger sister exposed to that and I know that TheMom... well... she probably wouldn't let us play. The biological units for smuggling is a great idea though - new game play and I see it in today's world too ... no invasive species allowed!!! ;):P
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Post by DynamicRanger »

I'm honestly surprised that drugs and alcohol are evoking such a negative response. I'm not proposing that the game, or even this game mechanic, be somehow about drugs or alcohol, and certainly not about using them. Most of the trade goods that exist in the game as it is are little more than words on a list and I wouldn't concern myself with young people merely seeing the words--but I only had my own perspective to go on when I wrote the topic. I don't mean to sound dismissive or cynical, but I just assumed that a game like EM was made for adults; not prurient or profane or anything like that, but a serious game for adults that know the difference between fiction and fantasy.

In either case, to those who find the terms a stumbling block to thinking about the smuggling gameplay system, simply substitute another term (DaveK suggested cupcakes ;)) and consider whether or not the concept of increasing the risks and rewards for transporting and trading certain goods in certain areas seems like an interesting way to play the game, make money and add depth to the economy.

I will say this in defense of my inclusion of alcohol and narcotics on the contraband goods list: no one has to trade them. In fact, you can take anti-smuggling missions in the game as it exists now; if the smuggled goods you're interdicting are drugs or alcohol (as opposed to mundane goods that you can inexplicably recover and sell exactly where the smuggler you just killed was taking them) then you are actively combating the spread of drugs and alcohol. For me, EM and other sandbox games where you can go anywhere and do anything are about freedom and choices. I may be grossly overemphasizing the importance of that sense of freedom, but the choice to obey the law and to help or hinder people is exactly the kind of decision that is the most exciting and thought-provoking.

[Edited on 7-29-2013 by DynamicRanger]
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Post by Rubber Chicken »

I didn't say it was about that. I'm fine with a contraband system of sorts, but those items are not something I would want to see in EM.

If we're going to be smuggling contraband, then why can't it take a different route than most other games?

How about we smuggle the one type of item that has been historically proven (depending on origin and destination) to be probably more controversial than them all - BOOKS.
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Post by SeeJay »

How about smuggling data pads with classified information.

If another player intercepts you and kill you to take it, he/she would be able to read the information.
Maybe locations of a new system, weapons etc.

This would inspire more PvP as well.
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Post by Maarschalk »

From post: 163617, Topic: tid=10925, author=SeeJay wrote:How about smuggling data pads with classified information.

If another player intercepts you and kill you to take it, he/she would be able to read the information.
Maybe locations of a new system, weapons etc.

This would inspire more PvP as well.
This sounds like a cool Idea! Also I have no issue with contraband or books. There are lot of other things that can be used that can be considered illegal in some systems but legal in other systems, like certain weapons or equipment.....etc! instead of drugs and alcohol!......;):cool:
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Post by Flash »

I like the idea. Also if one gets blown up with a load of contraband they should not only loose their cargo but also suffer a large fine with an automatic save.


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Post by DynamicRanger »

I'm curious to know--ethical/aesthetic objections to the goods themselves aside--what people think of the basic rules described.

Do you like the station-to-station model?

When constructing a trade station, would the decision to allow or disallow goods be interesting to you?

And the police patrol ship? It would have to be visible from a distance (perhaps with colored lights like the landing lights), so you could time your approach to avoid a scan.

Is it better to implement a system that forces a smuggler to confront (fight) enemies if they are caught, or should the way be left open to outmaneuver or sneak past them?

If you tried smuggling, how would it affect the kind of ship you'd use? What tactics would you employ?

-------------------------------------

Books and data don't make much sense as cargo, unless they are encoded on steel punchcards. A recoverable black box is an intriguing idea, though. When you take down a ship, if they have coords in their nav log you can recover them from the flight recorder. AI pilots could randomly drop them, not unlike requesting info in the ship-to-ship trade console.
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Post by Rubber Chicken »

I agree books and data perhaps don't make sense as cargo filling a cargo bay to the brim. But, books and data (once again, depending on origin and destination), are probably the two most expensive and highest risk for extreme punishment commodities the black market has to offer.
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Post by DynamicRanger »

I get that knowledge is power and can be a dangerous thing, but is the Evoverse so beset by tyranny that communication has to take place by courier? Books, information, knowledge, etc. are not commodities in the same sense that porkbellies, frozen concentrated orange juice, sorghum, steel, machine parts, aspirin, corn syrup and petroleum are commodities. Information can be duplicated essentially for free and moved at the speed of light for very low cost. Carrying dangerous information securely from one place to another is an interesting concept, but it can't be easily generalized: each incident is unique. Otherwise, the information is not useful--it must be specific to a time, place and context.

The black market I'm proposing isn't about "providing" things to people or pushing vice, it's about taking on additional risk, for additional reward by moving commodities from one place to another. Alcohol and narcotics were not included because they are edgy or make some kind of statement. In any economy they tend to be tightly regulated, which affects their supply, demand and the costs associated with making, buying, selling and transporting them--that's all! I'm proposing a non-specific system of high-risk economic activity--not a dramatically loaded "seedy underbelly" to attract the bad kids. As far as I'm concerned, in a game like EM it is up to each player to craft their own story and the role they play and the way their character reacts to the environment, whether with approval or disapproval.

Excuse this tangent, but I'm getting the distinct impression that a lot of people reading this thread think that the purpose of including a risk-centric economy (black market) is to lend the game a darker aesthetic. That wasn't my itention and I think it would be a bad idea to add something to the game with the sole purpose of making the game darker.

That being said, any thoughts on the systems of contraband goods and enforcement I've proposed?
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Post by Rubber Chicken »

There's an old saying we are all familiar with: "Art imitates life."
Video Games whether done well or poorly, are a form of art.

I find it rather disconcerting that while things like drugs and alcohol can be represented (in people's opinion) as feasible and fun extensions of the real world into the gaming world, things like books/info from non-state-approved sources aren't even considered as worthwhile and not a commodity.

Apparently you would have the Evoverse be just corrupt enough to get drunk and stoned and enjoy it's vices, but not so corrupt that things like history books and religious materials not approved by that particular government won't get you hunted, imprisoned and possibly killed.
Why one aspect and not the other?

Is it perhaps while drugs and alcohol are easy to spell out as contraband, things like 'illegal' books actually require some sort of education and intelligence to understand why they are so risky. (and so profitable - yes I said it.) After all books do nothing to harm your health - unless you're hit with one or caught having the wrong one in a restrictive country.

Smuggling historical data about Merak, generated from say.... Sapphire, to Merak (the North Korea of Evochron), could possibly be very profitable to very interested citizen(s) of Merak. There even could be a chance you're dealing with an undercover agent waiting to ambush you.

Seriously though why is it commodities based on vice are looked at as something that can add to the dynamic of a game, but information/books commodities take us down a rabbit hole that's just way too dark and way to deep to be considered good?

I would personally get good satisfaction from smuggling intellectual info that's right for people to have in spite of what some backwards government says. Not all smugglers are crooks and even though they do sometimes take high profit for their wares, well honestly... a homeboy's gotta eat too.
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Post by DynamicRanger »

All smugglers are crooks, by definition. The people who ban what they transport might be crooks, too, but that's beside the point. On the point of information being a commodity, I made myself so painfully clear that it's difficult for me to be any clearer. The paper that books are printed on is a finite physical object, derived from limited resources with common demand that requires labor to create and transport. What is printed on that paper also requires labor and can have great value, but it is not a finite physical object that must be transported. When I use the term commodity, I don't mean simply anything of value to people and neither do I mean the converse, that things that aren't commodities have no value.

Your opinion is noted, Rubber Chicken, but you aren't making a strong case for your position when you consistently (perhaps deliberately) ignore what I've said and instead attack a straw man. I have said, at least three times by my count, that the mere existence of vices as a component of an economy does not imply that players use them. Not only does the existence of drugs and alcohol not presume that players approve or disapprove of them, it doesn't imply that the Evoverse is inherently "corrupt", "drunk", or "stoned". In all honesty, I'm getting damned tired of your veiled ad hominem attacks, as well.
From post: 163634, Topic: tid=10925, author=Rubber Chicken wrote:Is it perhaps while drugs and alcohol are easy to spell out as contraband, things like 'illegal' books actually require some sort of education and intelligence to understand why they are so risky.
I am not failing to understand why knowledge can be risky, whatever your estimation of my intelligence and education. What you have contributed to this discussion has been far easier than the thought and work I put into starting it. All you had to do was jerk your knee.
From post: 163598, Topic: tid=10925, author=Rubber Chicken wrote:Why do people think that games need to have a 'debauched' aspect to make them good?
I did not, in any way, imply that the game wasn't good without the edgy element you're wrongly pinning to my proposal.

Do you disapprove of alcohol and drugs so highly in the real world, that the mere existence of those terms in a fictional one send you into attack mode? Unless you're going to contribute something besides self-righteous disapproval of insobriety (and a dogged insistence that books are somehow a righteous and totally equivalent substitute), find something else to comment on.
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Post by DaveK »

Perhaps I'm still missing something . . .

As had been said, items that are smuggled tend to be items that are tightly controlled by governments and hence illegal - commonly arms, tobacco, alcohol and drugs. I still think that DynamicRanger isn't talking about drugs and alcohol (and heaven forbid - tobacco) as such - he's proposing another layer of the game with bigger risks and bigger rewards and he's suggested a system to incorporate it into the game. And several times he's requested comments on the rule system he's proposed.

The original space sandbox - Elite - allowed you to be a pirate, killing the innocent and stealing their cargo. It also allowed you to smuggle cargo that would give big rewards if you managed it, but zap your reputation with the local police if you were caught. Or you could be a bounty hunter and take out the bad guys.

I can be a pirate in EM, killing the innocent and stealing their cargo. How is that more acceptable than being a smuggler? (Hans Solo was a smuggler and everyone loved him). Let them be 'stolen historical artifacts' or stolen artworks or industrial secrets. The question is whether smuggling adds to the game or not.

wrt books and such, the internet allows easy and quick sharing of information - as with the Arab Spring. The only books I can think of that are 'powerful' and often need smuggling are religious, particularly the bible, but make 'banned books' a smuggler's item.

I actually thought that by identifying some items as illegal/smuggleable one was actually emphasising their undesirable and unacceptable nature in a civilised community.

To paraphrase . . . your 'info that's right for people to have' can be my 'subversive info that's trying to destroy my culture' and your 'backward governments' can be my 'governments fighting against the corruption and immorality of the modern godless era'. In Vice's canon, even the Vonari aren't mindless psychopaths - they have very good reasons for their hatred of humanity.

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Post by countjimula »

I like the way this is done on the game Trancendence. I feel we can have a black market without calling them drugs. I personal do not have an issue with it, but I see it as a possible negative that can easily be avoided with no harm to game play. How we trade and hide black market items is far more important to me than what it is called.
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Post by DynamicRanger »

I've never played Transcendence. How is smuggling handled in that game?
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Post by Rubber Chicken »

Wow. You really told me.

F.Y.I. D.R. I made no statement of my estimation of your intelligence. But, since you jerked your knee....

Books are far beyond 'equivalent' of booze and drugs. After all, the Nazis didn't take people's booze from them by force and burn it in the streets.

I'm just wondering why the 'commodities' you propose are so much more important than the one I have. Admittedly, almost every item - from (insert brand here) cupcakes, to Levi's, to laptop computer components are illegal somewhere and can bring high prices on the black market in that region. I get it, for the sake of narrowing down the list, let's stick with the most cookie-cutter ones we can.

I also wonder why high-risk smuggling has to be taken from the role of pirate, crook, (or whatever you want to call it), and not of the role of a revolutionary to that particular area. I know... I know... same thing. (not) The "It's all relative to what's relative..." argument is totally vapid. Hence, why people often turn to religion in order to sort out what rights are inalienable to EVERY person, and governments do their best to suppress it.

And further F.Y.I. , Myself and Jack Daniels do sometimes have good conversations about whatever happens to come to mind that day. This is not about me taking a 'straight edge' stance on anything.

I just don't want to see him hanging around in Evochron. I personally feel it would be a detriment to the game. Not the smuggling system you propose, just those particular commodities.

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Oh and by the way Dave it's not "info that's right for people to have.", it's "info that everybody has an inalienable RIGHT to have." Lots of people live in countries that are heavily blockaded by their governments to have access to anything but websites that particular regime approves of, and not everybody has a clue on how to bypass these blocks without being caught and severely punished.
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