The Thinking of the Outside of that there Box...

Post by **DaveK** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:45 pm

ooops - I thought (after Maars' and my discussion a year or so ago) that Evochron is a religion free zone

Am I wrong?

Apo Dominus · Post by **Apo Dominus** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:29 am

Free Religion? Oh awesome! So it is

it's also imperitive in some parts....

I'm gonna need to read the thread a few times.... eh heheheheh....

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:47 pm

From post: 150695, Topic: tid=10049, author=Apo Dominus wrote:Free Religion? Oh awesome! So it is it's also imperitive in some parts....

I'm gonna need to read the thread a few times.... eh heheheheh....

It has always been free, but there have always been people taking advantage of others in the name of It and giving It a bad name so that know one knows any more what the real It is and even get to dislike It and turn away from It. The Sun shines for free but only night creatures turn away from the light and hate the Sun.....

:P

Viper · Post by **Viper** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:42 pm

Voor niks gaat de zon op, isn't that right Maars.

Still know that one?

Viper · Post by **Viper** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:58 pm

Since the title of this thread is about 'thinking out of the box':

Here's a really good documentary reflecting on the terrible mess we (or rather: our governments) have made of our world, and looking forward to possibilities to build a better one. Playing a big role is the 'Venus Project', a brilliant vision on a peaceful and sustainable world by Jacque Fresco, a brilliant visionary. Most of you have probably heard of it somewhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4l3pBovB_c

More info about the Venus Project: The Venus Project. Absolutely worth a look.

Viper · Post by **Viper** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:10 pm

A couple of phrases from the video that are remarkable to say the very least, if you think about it:

"War represents the failure of nations to resolve their differences. From a purely pragmatic standpoint, it is the most inefficient use of lifes and resources ever conceived."

"If the profit were taken out of war, do you really believe we'd have them?"

"We are not born with greed, envy, hatred or bigotry. Our behavior and values are reflective of the culture we're exposed to."

"To maintain our economy, products must continuously be sold. To ensure this, they are deliberately designed to wear out and break down."

"The monetary system has been handed down from centuries ago. And we continue to use it without questions..."

"The national debt has grown too large for the national debt clock... A whole new clock, with two extra spaces, will go up next year."

"If technology does not liberate all people for the pursuit of higher aspirations and higher achievement, then all its technological potential will be meaningless."

"When we unleash science and technology directly into the social system, without the restrictions of the market plans, finances, or patents, we could achieve a very high standard of living within a very short period of time. This society would continuously improve, changing rapidly through new technologies, inventions and ideas. It would be an emerging society, rather than an established one, like we have today."

"When all of science and technology are used within a global, resource based economy, for the protection of the environment and the well-being of all, only then will we understand what it means to be truly civilized."

Really good vid if you ask me. Makes you realize how bad we have really messed things up. But also gives options to make it right. I think that the way the world is run today, is finite. And if you ask me, its collapse is not far away anymore. It's time we did something about it. Now if we could only get our governments to listen.

[Edited on 12-8-2012 by Viper]

Post by **Marvin** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:41 pm

Viper, that was more than a couple. But you can probably sum it all up with the old saying: The road to disaster is paved with good intentions.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:06 pm

From post: 150904, Topic: tid=10049, author=Viper wrote:A couple of phrases from the video that are remarkable to say the very least, if you think about it:

"War represents the failure of nations to resolve their differences. From a purely pragmatic standpoint, it is the most inefficient use of lifes and resources ever conceived."

"If the profit were taken out of war, do you really believe we'd have them?"

"We are not born with greed, envy, hatred or bigotry. Our behavior and values are reflective of the culture we're exposed to."

"To maintain our economy, products must continuously be sold. To ensure this, they are deliberately designed to wear out and break down."

"The monetary system has been handed down from centuries ago. And we continue to use it without questions..."

"The national debt has grown too large for the national debt clock... A whole new clock, with two extra spaces, will go up next year."

"If technology does not liberate all people for the pursuit of higher aspirations and higher achievement, then all its technological potential will be meaningless."

"When we unleash science and technology directly into the social system, without the restrictions of the market plans, finances, or patents, we could achieve a very high standard of living within a very short period of time. This society would continuously improve, changing rapidly through new technologies, inventions and ideas. It would be an emerging society, rather than an established one, like we have today."

"When all of science and technology are used within a global, resource based economy, for the protection of the environment and the well-being of all, only then will we understand what it means to be truly civilized."

Really good vid if you ask me. Makes you realize how bad we have really messed things up. But also gives options to make it right. I think that the way the world is run today, is finite. And if you ask me, its collapse is not far away anymore. It's time we did something about it. Now if we could only get our governments to listen.

[Edited on 12-8-2012 by Viper]

I agree completely.
If Goverments and People do not listen to their Creator and His Messengers and Prosecute, Crucify, Martyr, Behead, Execute and Imprison them and make War in the name of Them contrary to their council for today's society how can we expect goverments and corrupt people in power to listen!......God does not need and is far above the need of proof off existance and is the One testing us!

And He has told us through His Messengers the consequences of turning away from His Council. So far we have failed all the tests as a human race and those responsible will bear the consequences!......

Not with standing our Failure, God for the love of His chosen ones and the ones who passed the tests promisses He will establish His Kingdom on Earth after the Day of Judgement which the corrupt have brought upon them selves! And after that ever lasting Peace will follow.

After all this I can Imagine that a like Venus Project is possible but I can not Imagine it without a True Religious Society that has acknowledged and knows its Creator!

As for leaving Religion out of Science and Science out of Religion, is like leaving the musician out of the music and musical instrument or having music and a musical instrument without a musician. The Music(Notes, Volume, Tempo...etc) being the laws of science and the musical instrument being the body (atoms/particles/objects)through which the laws are aplied. The Musician is the Soul/Spirit that brings the Musical instrument to life aplying the laws(music) to the instrument

The instrument and music is dead without the musician!
The Canvas and Paint is dead without a Painter.

The Musician and Painter(Soul/Spirit/Religion) still need education and training and tests to become a Master Musician or Painter and the tests will decide if the Musician or Painter has become succesfull or not. And the Creator/God of the Soul/Spirit of Man(Painter/Musician) is the tester!.......

Post by **Marvin** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:48 pm

We already leave the music out of music and still call it music. Otherwise known as Rap.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:56 pm

From post: 150924, Topic: tid=10049, author=Marvin wrote: We already leave the music out of music and still call it music. Otherwise known as Rap.

LOL...Marv, I call it a man made Religion!......and that is a Wrap!.......

:P

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:05 pm

From post: 150918, Topic: tid=10049, author=Marvin wrote: Viper, that was more than a couple. But you can probably sum it all up with the old saying: The road to disaster is paved with good intentions.

I'm worried more about: The road to disaster that is paved intentionally with bad intentions!

This is the one that is going to be more worse!

God takes care of the road to disaster paved with good intentions and protects us from disaster through good intentional mistakes!

Post by **DaveK** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:06 pm

From post: 150695, Topic: tid=10049, author=Apo Dominus wrote:Free Religion? Oh awesome! So it is it's also imperitive in some parts....

I'm gonna need to read the thread a few times.... eh heheheheh....

sorry but "religion free" does not not not equal "free religion" The two words are not commutative (the two ideas are even less so!)

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:21 pm

From post: 150927, Topic: tid=10049, author=DaveK wrote:
From post: 150695, Topic: tid=10049, author=Apo Dominus wrote:Free Religion? Oh awesome! So it is it's also imperitive in some parts....

I'm gonna need to read the thread a few times.... eh heheheheh....
sorry but "religion free" does not not not equal "free religion" The two words are not commutative (the two ideas are even less so!)

However Evochron can never be Religion Free, other wise you can not express your opinion on anything!

Definitions of Religion:

"a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe"......

:P

Post by **Marvin** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:14 pm

I thought that was the definition of philosophy. But, nevermind.

Apo Dominus · Post by **Apo Dominus** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:36 am

Heh, Dave, my free religion post was a joke. I changed Religion Free to - Free Religion, and then stated that it was imperitive in some places... Completely negating my Free Religion remark... Since, in some places it's not FREE, and humans are born into regardless of free will. Religions are there (IN MY OPINION) simply to section masses of people. All of these people are already controlled by what they have to live by. Meaning, somebody else doesn't have to control them.

So they used Religion as they are doing with Media. Controlling humans. Because humans believe anything...

Viper · Post by **Viper** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:38 am

Yes that were more than a couple but each one equally catching in regards to the current global situation in my opninion.

As far as Maars said about it being a test: If it is (and since I'm not religious I don't believe it is), I'm pretty sure humanity has meanwhile proven sufficiently to have failed bigtime. That said I wonder how long this 'test' is going to take, and how many lives have to be destroyed before it is considered 'complete'. Do we actually have to blow up the whole planet before we definitely failed?...

And I do wonder how a peaceful creator feels that all the bloodshed, pain, hurt, etc etc outweighs the importance of humanity passing or failing his test.

This is one of the reasons I'm not religious. My down to earth-brought up mind can't find an explanation for that. And even if there is one and I'm not seeing it, I wonder how you would explain something like that to all those people that have died or have seen their lives destroyed all for the sake of a test.

I prefer to believe that it's really simple: Technology has evolved faster than humanity (something that was also said in the video). We have the power to destroy countries and millions of lives using only one single bomb, and if we wanted we could indeed turn the entire planet inhabitable. Unfortunately humanity (or at least our leaders) has not yet evolved to a point where we can recognize and appreciate the responsibility that comes with that power. Instead we still let greed and power guide our decisions, even though we like to call ourselves an 'intelligent' and 'evolved' race... We're still just kids who cannot be trusted to play with the big toys.

Yes, I think we can definitely say that we have failed. Let's hope there's still time for a rematch.

Apo Dominus · Post by **Apo Dominus** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:51 am

From post: 150955, Topic: tid=10049, author=Viper wrote:Yes that were more than a couple but each one equally catching in regards to the current global situation in my opninion.

As far as Maars said about it being a test: If it is (and since I'm not religious I don't believe it is), I'm pretty sure humanity has meanwhile proven sufficiently to have failed bigtime. That said I wonder how long this 'test' is going to take, and how many lives have to be destroyed before it is considered 'complete'. Do we actually have to blow up the whole planet before we definitely failed?...

And I do wonder how a peaceful creator feels that all the bloodshed, pain, hurt, etc etc outweighs the importance of humanity passing or failing his test.

This is one of the reasons I'm not religious. My down to earth-brought up mind can't find an explanation for that. And even if there is one and I'm not seeing it, I wonder how you would explain something like that to all those people that have died or have seen their lives destroyed all for the sake of a test.

I prefer to believe that it's really simple: Technology has evolved faster than humanity (something that was also said in the video). We have the power to destroy countries and millions of lives using only one single bomb, and if we wanted we could indeed turn the entire planet inhabitable. Unfortunately humanity (or at least our leaders) has not yet evolved to a point where we can recognize and appreciate the responsibility that comes with that power. Instead we still let greed and power guide our decisions, even though we like to call ourselves an 'intelligent' and 'evolved' race... We're still just kids who cannot be trusted to play with the big toys.

Yes, I think we can definitely say that we have failed. Let's hope there's still time for a rematch.

I hope there IS a test! That would explain the planet of the crossing...... coming back with Jesus on it, and the angels. And saving the people that had faith all these years..... Maybe not the scenario they had in mind but, for me, it works

IF a planet is coming, well it's a planet orbiting it's own Brown Dwarf Star, with several other planets doing the same thing, making it a cluster of death! It will destroy EVERYTHING if it's 4 times bigger than Jupiter... Soooo... Nah, nobody will be saved.

Edit: Unless the thing from Virgo is going to save them?

[Edited on 12-9-2012 by Apo Dominus]

Accountant · Post by **Accountant** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:45 am

This is a.....fascinating.....thread, full of a wide variety of ideas. I find most ideas contrary to my own, but have not the time, energy, and (in most cases) expertise to engage in discussion. But I do want to comment on the Venus Project, primarily because economics/finance is my area of study and one of the few things I think I have at least a basic grasp of

From post: 150889, Topic: tid=10049, author=Viper wrote:Since the title of this thread is about 'thinking out of the box':

Here's a really good documentary reflecting on the terrible mess we (or rather: our governments) have made of our world, and looking forward to possibilities to build a better one. Playing a big role is the 'Venus Project', a brilliant vision on a peaceful and sustainable world by Jacque Fresco, a brilliant visionary. Most of you have probably heard of it somewhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4l3pBovB_c

More info about the Venus Project: The Venus Project. Absolutely worth a look.

I stopped at the 21:53 mark, partly because it is late and I have a long day (week....month?) ahead of me, and partly because I finally got to the gist of the message. Two comments/concerns:

1. Scarcity will never be eliminated. Needs and wants will ALWAYS exceed available resources. If this was not true, there would be no need for economics and therefore no need for this video. Does the video address how scarcity will be eliminated (other than saying, "Technology")? If so, just tell me to "watch the whole video, idiot"

2. The video, in the beginning, mentions man's rights, yet does not (at least in the first half) define what man's rights are. Seeing as no definition is provided, I will proffer one: Man has 1 right, and that is the right to his/her own life. This is the right to make decisions to direct their life as they see fit, so long as it does not interfere with the same right of their fellow man. In order for people to be able to direct their life as they see fit, they must be able to own and use the produce of their work. If they cannot use the produce of their own work, they cannot ever be self-sufficient, and are therefore at the mercy of the people who do control their produce. Self-sufficiency, and the ability to guide their own life as they see fit, requires that property rights be enforced. This video maligns property rights, and its vision of a resource-based economy negates all concept of property rights. Hence, according to my definition, this economic model violates man's most basic right. What is the Venus Project's concept of human rights and from where do these rights come from?

If any of this is covered in the video, then let me know and I will finish it.

-Accountant

Viper · Post by **Viper** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:14 am

I recommend finishing the video (regardless of its subject) before commenting on it. You'll be able to answer those questions yourself, at least for the most part.
Please also keep in mind that nothing is perfect, that includes the Venus Project. It also says so in the video. It's just so many times better than our current flawed monetary system.

Major Grubert · Post by **Major Grubert** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:45 am

"Venus Project" it sounds and looks as a bad remake of the Venusian society build in the book "the world of A" by A.E.Van Vogt, a world based on General Semantic ideas...

nothing new here

looks good way for sold lots of DVD full of "hope"

[edit]I saw Korzybsky books related in the "recommended reading" but not the Van Vogt ones

for a good start about "thinking out the box" Korkybsky is really not bad, for me

it's free access by google books

[Edited on 12-10-2012 by Major Grubert]

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:49 pm

From post: 151106, Topic: tid=10049, author=Accountant wrote:This is a.....fascinating.....thread, full of a wide variety of ideas. I find most ideas contrary to my own, but have not the time, energy, and (in most cases) expertise to engage in discussion. But I do want to comment on the Venus Project, primarily because economics/finance is my area of study and one of the few things I think I have at least a basic grasp of

From post: 150889, Topic: tid=10049, author=Viper wrote:Since the title of this thread is about 'thinking out of the box':

Here's a really good documentary reflecting on the terrible mess we (or rather: our governments) have made of our world, and looking forward to possibilities to build a better one. Playing a big role is the 'Venus Project', a brilliant vision on a peaceful and sustainable world by Jacque Fresco, a brilliant visionary. Most of you have probably heard of it somewhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4l3pBovB_c

More info about the Venus Project: The Venus Project. Absolutely worth a look.
I stopped at the 21:53 mark, partly because it is late and I have a long day (week....month?) ahead of me, and partly because I finally got to the gist of the message. Two comments/concerns:

1. Scarcity will never be eliminated. Needs and wants will ALWAYS exceed available resources. If this was not true, there would be no need for economics and therefore no need for this video. Does the video address how scarcity will be eliminated (other than saying, "Technology")? If so, just tell me to "watch the whole video, idiot"

2. The video, in the beginning, mentions man's rights, yet does not (at least in the first half) define what man's rights are. Seeing as no definition is provided, I will proffer one: Man has 1 right, and that is the right to his/her own life. This is the right to make decisions to direct their life as they see fit, so long as it does not interfere with the same right of their fellow man. In order for people to be able to direct their life as they see fit, they must be able to own and use the produce of their work. If they cannot use the produce of their own work, they cannot ever be self-sufficient, and are therefore at the mercy of the people who do control their produce. Self-sufficiency, and the ability to guide their own life as they see fit, requires that property rights be enforced. This video maligns property rights, and its vision of a resource-based economy negates all concept of property rights. Hence, according to my definition, this economic model violates man's most basic right. What is the Venus Project's concept of human rights and from where do these rights come from?

If any of this is covered in the video, then let me know and I will finish it.

-Accountant

About #2. Man's rights have been defined and have come forth from the True Religions(Not man made ones).

Man made religions have been the violaters of every human right and always will be!

When does a Religion become man made?

When Rulers and people turn a way from the Founders of the True World Religions and start enforcing their own rules and laws for want of power and control!.......

[Edited on 12-11-2012 by Maarschalk]

Accountant · Post by **Accountant** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:58 am

I finished the video, and my questions remain.

How exactly does this system eliminate scarcity? If the earth has a carrying capacity, does that not inherently imply scarcity?

What about human rights? The video never defines them, and its references to the "rights" of specific groups of people seems to indicate that they do not know what they are talking about (are not rights universal?)

Automation is cool, but you will never be able to eliminate routine/boring/repetitive jobs. Even when automation is possible, it is not 100% effective. I work in a manufacturing industry, and I can say that automated machine centers and production lines can never be fully left alone.

Why does this group malign money? Money is only a representation of the produce of a society. Money does not create rich and poor people, it only defines them. Saying money creates destitution is like saying the dictionary is responsible for derogatory language.

Finally, this video claims that this system will prevent overproduction (and thus prevent wasted effort). How is this done? The brightest minds in private industry cannot accurately forecast sales demand all the time. It is an incredibly complex set of interrelationships between your customers' wants (and when they want it), your lead time to discover those wants, your suppliers' lead times to provide raw materials, your production lead time to create the finished goods, and the lead time needed to ship the product to a sales location. Companies have a huge economic interest in their ability to accurately forecast their production, yet they cannot consistently do it. What about this system solves such a complicated problem?

Maarschalk, if man's rights have been defined, then what are they? I have offered my definition, why does no one offer theirs?

Post by **Marvin** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:23 am

The concept of utopia is like the concept of androids: both ideas have underestimated the complexity of human motivation. Ergo, it's not likely we will see either one.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:24 pm

From post: 151233, Topic: tid=10049, author=Accountant wrote:I finished the video, and my questions remain.

How exactly does this system eliminate scarcity? If the earth has a carrying capacity, does that not inherently imply scarcity?

What about human rights? The video never defines them, and its references to the "rights" of specific groups of people seems to indicate that they do not know what they are talking about (are not rights universal?)

Automation is cool, but you will never be able to eliminate routine/boring/repetitive jobs. Even when automation is possible, it is not 100% effective. I work in a manufacturing industry, and I can say that automated machine centers and production lines can never be fully left alone.

Why does this group malign money? Money is only a representation of the produce of a society. Money does not create rich and poor people, it only defines them. Saying money creates destitution is like saying the dictionary is responsible for derogatory language.

Finally, this video claims that this system will prevent overproduction (and thus prevent wasted effort). How is this done? The brightest minds in private industry cannot accurately forecast sales demand all the time. It is an incredibly complex set of interrelationships between your customers' wants (and when they want it), your lead time to discover those wants, your suppliers' lead times to provide raw materials, your production lead time to create the finished goods, and the lead time needed to ship the product to a sales location. Companies have a huge economic interest in their ability to accurately forecast their production, yet they cannot consistently do it. What about this system solves such a complicated problem?

Maarschalk, if man's rights have been defined, then what are they? I have offered my definition, why does no one offer theirs?

The Human Rights hve been defined in many of the Holy Scriptures and the most commonly known for example are the 10 Command ments of Mozes. If you violate any of those 10 you violate some ones elses right. Some of these laws and rights will change and be redefined according to the needs of the time and the development and majurity of the human family which is progressive and renewed with each new Devine Messenger/Phrophet/Teacher/Founder of the True World Religions(Not the man made ones).....

Major Grubert · Post by **Major Grubert** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:50 pm

For me Humans have no rights at all, only duty.

For me Humans can write infinites book about their own rights, this will remain only what they imagine, conceive, abstract from reality... nothing real... 100.000 years ago nobody though about "humans right".
Human Rights seems to me as a new hope things, kind of religion, civilian religion.

Humans have ability to use their structure to survive, reproduce, and swarm around... and it's only what they do.

Soon or late this solar system will extinct, the Sun will stop to work for us, this planet gonna burn and die, and at this time Humans should have been able to swarm at a galactic scale, change their structure to survive hyper-fast travel if needed, and found how to reproduce well in outer space as well as under other gravity or planetary conditions... whatever...

And for all this they can only count on themselves.