The Thinking of the Outside of that there Box...

General discussion (space-sim gaming, astronomy, and sci-fi entertainment in general, etc.).
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The Thinking of the Outside of that there Box...

Post by Munshine »

From post: 150344, Topic: tid=10049, author=Apo Dominus wrote:God is an alien :) The Bible etc
yeah. right, that's interesting. But what the Atheists need to do if they still think that the aliens topic is nevertheless a matter of interest 'cause you know for them, Aliens on Earth don't exist until they find out hardproof about them but they got proof that there is life on Mars (not yet the green sentient beings you are thinking about) :) :cool:

edit: yes I'm French but I didn't mean to be rude. If you are feeling that what I'm saying is offensive, sorry for the inconvenience. ;)
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Post by Viper »

From post: 150266, Topic: tid=10049, author=Maarschalk wrote:The real question is: Is the knowledge and proof we are discovering of the exsistance of Extra Terrestial Inteligent Beeings going to make a difference/change in the Creators(God's) Plan?........;):cool:
Well I'm not religious so I couldn't answer that. But what I do wonder about quite often is this. Let's say for the sake of argument that life on other worlds does exist. And that we somehow come in contact with it sometime in our remaining lives. What would happen to religion and its people? The bible never spoke of life elsewhere; it even centers humans as if they're the only ones around (at least from the perspective of the religious people I've had the privilege to speak with about this).

Please let me point out that I was brought up religiously, and quite strictly so. At some point I decided to drop religion in favor of something else. After years of pondering, reading books, watching docus, browsing the net, and more pondering, I came to the conclusion that between religion, the evolution theory and the Ancient Alien theory, I found the latter to be the most plausible of them all. It is the only theory that explains most of my questions, and the only one that explains the gigantic gap in human evolution. Because there is a gap in human dna between the last version of the Neanderthal and the first humans. And in fact, humans have a little thingy (genome? something else? I forget these terms) in their dna that does not occur in any other life form anywhere else on our planet. How did that get there?... There's something to think about.

Plus, I've always just had somewhat of a gut feeling that we humans are the annoying little kids who live down the street of the grown ups, not really understanding the toys they play with yet.

Let me also please point out that the subject I'm addressing here is differences in perspectives - NOT religion itself. Please don't take it as such. I have seen very few discussions about religion be productive and end in a good way so I'll steer away from that.


Edit, since Munshine posted just before me:
From post: 150347, Topic: tid=10049, author=Munshine wrote:But what the Atheists need to do if they still think that the aliens topic is nevertheless a matter of interest 'cause you know for them, Aliens on Earth don't exist until they find out hardproof about them but they got proof that there is life on Mars (not yet the green sentient beings you are thinking about) :) :cool:

edit: yes I'm French but I didn't mean to be rude. If you are feeling that what I'm saying is offensive, sorry for the inconvenience. ;)
Assuming you're not one of those 'Atheists' (please don't label people like that, some people will find it rude), how can you speak for them and say that "for them aliens on Earth don't exist until they have proof of life on Mars" exactly...? Because I am what religious people might call an 'Atheist' since I am not religious, and I can tell you right here and now that your assumption is absolutely wrong. :) The theory that aliens were involved in human evolution does not necessarily mean that they should still be around, does it? Then again, there are people who believe that aliens are all around us, even living among us.
There's little to no evidence available to the public to prove either way. But neither is there for what is told in the bible, for that matter. Which makes every religion or other theory a matter of 'beyond reasonable doubt and probable cause', more than anything else. ;)

[Edited on 12-5-2012 by Viper]
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The Thinking of the Outside of that there Box...

Post by Major Grubert »

From post: 150266, Topic: tid=10049, author=Maarschalk wrote:The real question is: Is the knowledge and proof we are discovering of the exsistance of Extra Terrestial Inteligent Beeings going to make a difference/change in the Creators(God's) Plan?........;):cool:
I just dont get the point to search a factual answer to a question including 2 nonfactual elements :)

the answer can be whatever pop up to your imagination

the best way i found to answer is silent, silent say it all, close mouth, close thinkings, I stop arguing about what i can imagine to argue to find an answer about a thinking imaginative question... because this is endless and meaningless, for me

when i look at the sky at night, the first seconds, when my brain just turn off, because no words can tell what i feel and see, no tough can translate that, this is this silent i talk about, generally in the next couple of seconds words comes "nice" "awesome" then intellectual tough "is this jupiter ?", the silent is broken, the endless flow of questions can start again :)


but it stay an intellectual pleasure
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The Thinking of the Outside of that there Box...

Post by Munshine »

yes, i'm also atheist . And I didn't mean to speak for all atheists of course.

There was a humour tone in my post that now I feel misunderstood, so don't take it too seriously.
"for them aliens on Earth don't exist until they have proof of life on Mars"
I was speaking of hardproof on Earth .

[Edited on 12-5-2012 by Munshine]

[Edited on 12-5-2012 by Munshine]
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The Thinking of the Outside of that there Box...

Post by Major Grubert »

salut mumu

ahahah :)

don't worry, they know we are not using our own langage and they are very tolerant people :)
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Post by Viper »

Indeed. I did misunderstand Munshine there, apologies mate. Didn't mean to offend you either, of course. :) I just always find it interesting to light all sides of a discussion, that's all. And it's often hard to express one's self in matters like these and not sound rude. :)

[Edited on 12-5-2012 by Viper]
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Post by -splosives- »

From post: 150348, Topic: tid=10049, author=Viper wrote:
I came to the conclusion that between religion, the evolution theory and the Ancient Alien theory, I found the latter to be the most plausible of them all. It is the only theory that explains most of my questions, and the only one that explains the gigantic gap in human evolution. Because there is a gap in human dna between the last version of the Neanderthal and the first humans
[Edited on 12-5-2012 by Viper]
Have you ever thought about that maybe we just don't have any evidence of this "gap", but actually there wasn't a gap? Maybe next year archaeologists will find the missing pieces.
This is a bit less far fetched than aliens if you ask me.
From post: 150348, Topic: tid=10049, author=Viper wrote:
And in fact, humans have a little thingy (genome? something else? I forget these terms) in their dna that does not occur in any other life form anywhere else on our planet. How did that get there?... There's something to think about.

[Edited on 12-5-2012 by Viper]
Yes, humans have something in their DNA that does not occur in any other life form anywhere else on our planet, just like any other living creature that has DNA.
That's what makes us human, and not tomato.
But human DNA is no more special than tomato DNA. There's nothing that makes human DNA "stand out" above all other DNA.
This "genome" you speak of has nothing to do with humans only.
From wikipedia " the genome is the entirety of an organism's hereditary information. " Which basically means DNA.
Who told you this anyway?

[Edited on 12-5-2012 by -splosives-]
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Post by Viper »

Have you ever thought about that maybe we just don't have any evidence of this "gap", but actually there wasn't a gap? Maybe next year archaeologists will find the missing pieces.
This is a bit less far fetched than aliens if you ask me.
I'm surprised that as an open minded scientist, you find the possible presence of alien intelligence 'far fetched', especially if you take into account the Drake equation, with which you will no doubt be familiar.
Yes, humans have something in their DNA that does not occur in any other life form anywhere else on our planet, just like any other living creature that has DNA.
That's what makes us human, and not tomato.
But human DNA is no more special than tomato DNA. There's nothing that makes human DNA "stand out" above all other DNA.
This "genome" you speak of has nothing to do with humans only.
From wikipedia " the genome is the entirety of an organism's hereditary information. " Which basically means DNA.
Who told you this anyway?
As I said, the term 'genome' is probably the wrong one.
Both of your quotes are actually related. Yes definitely there is a huge 'gap' in the evolution of humans. There is a 'missing' part, or period, whichever the best term might be, between the most intelligent Neanderthal and the first modern human. Scientist have compared the dna of the most developed neanderthale ad the first modern human, and it turns out that the modern human dna has something (again, whatever the proper term for it is, I'll look it up) that the Neanderthale dna has not. And not in the sense of something being different, but something actually being present in the human dna that is absent in the Neanderthale dna. This 'something' can not be found anywhere else in nature, not in any living being and not in any organic material. so from an evolutionary point of view, it couldn't actually have come from anywhere. So where did it come from?... It's one of these things that modern mainstream science has not been able to explain up till today. In fact, most of them are simply denying it because it doesn't fit the accepted framework of modern science. Very open-minded...

It's not something someone told me, it's one of the things I've learned after doing years of research on the (and other) subject. And it's really not something secretive or new, the discovery has been made years ago.
There's literally huge amounts of stuff to be found about this on the net. And not just from little crazy people, but also from noted scientists. If you're interested I'd happily point out a few links, but you would be able to find something quite easily yourself. Be wary for BS 'documentaries' though.

[Edited on 12-5-2012 by Viper]
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Post by Maarschalk »

From post: 150357, Topic: tid=10049, author=Viper wrote:
Have you ever thought about that maybe we just don't have any evidence of this "gap", but actually there wasn't a gap? Maybe next year archaeologists will find the missing pieces.
This is a bit less far fetched than aliens if you ask me.
I'm surprised that as an open minded scientist, you find the possible presence of alien intelligence 'far fetched', especially if you take into account the Drake equation, with which you will no doubt be familiar.
Yes, humans have something in their DNA that does not occur in any other life form anywhere else on our planet, just like any other living creature that has DNA.
That's what makes us human, and not tomato.
But human DNA is no more special than tomato DNA. There's nothing that makes human DNA "stand out" above all other DNA.
This "genome" you speak of has nothing to do with humans only.
From wikipedia " the genome is the entirety of an organism's hereditary information. " Which basically means DNA.
Who told you this anyway?
As I said, the term 'genome' is probably the wrong one.
Both of your quotes are actually related. Yes definitely there is a huge 'gap' in the evolution of humans. There is a 'missing' part, or period, whichever the best term might be, between the most intelligent Neanderthal and the first modern human. Scientist have compared the dna of the most developed neanderthale ad the first modern human, and it turns out that the modern human dna has something (again, whatever the proper term for it is, I'll look it up) that the Neanderthale dna has not. And not in the sense of something being different, but something actually being present in the human dna that is absent in the Neanderthale dna. This 'something' can not be found anywhere else in nature, not in any living being and not in any organic material. so from an evolutionary point of view, it couldn't actually have come from anywhere. So where did it come from?... It's one of these things that modern mainstream science has not been able to explain up till today. In fact, most of them are simply denying it because it doesn't fit the accepted framework of modern science. Very open-minded...

It's not something someone told me, it's one of the things I've learned after doing years of research on the (and other) subject. And it's really not something secretive or new, the discovery has been made years ago.
There's literally huge amounts of stuff to be found about this on the net. And not just from little crazy people, but also from noted scientists. If you're interested I'd happily point out a few links, but you would be able to find something quite easily yourself. Be wary for BS 'documentaries' though.

[Edited on 12-5-2012 by Viper]
You will never be able to explain this phenomena without having Religion go Hand in Hand with Science! As stated before in a previous post! And when I say Religion I do not merely mean the Bible. The Bible is not the only Book from God, If you want to keep an open Mind you have to consider other possible scriptures as well and the Bible just a part of the puzzle!....;):cool:

The Story of Creation is almost the same in all Major World Religions and others many people do not even have heard of!

That DNA or Genome that makes us different or uniek may well have come from Outer Space but so did each individual atom!

In some other Religion the Founder of that Religion tells us that Man is different from all other species and is uniek and went through developmental stages just like any other creature but was always destined to become Man what it is today and will be in the future! If it came from outer space or not it was the Creator's plan for Man to come into existance.

I ask again can a Creature exsist without a Creator? Did Man Create Himself? Is it possible for a Painting to Create a Painting without an Artist? If so than give examples and proof that this is possible!.....;):cool:


[Edited on 12-5-2012 by Maarschalk]
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Post by Munshine »

I ask again can a Creature exsist without a Creator? Did Man Create Himself? Is it possible for a Painting to Create a Painting without an Artist? If so than give examples and proof that this is possible!.....;):cool:
3. a painting is an object, not a life form. wrong example
2. as a life form, mankind can perpetuate itself on another life form of himself / herself, so I would say yes.
3. I'm not feeling that I'm a creature (or an alien), so the best answer is I don't know :cool:
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Post by Maarschalk »

From post: 150367, Topic: tid=10049, author=Munshine wrote:
I ask again can a Creature exsist without a Creator? Did Man Create Himself? Is it possible for a Painting to Create a Painting without an Artist? If so than give examples and proof that this is possible!.....;):cool:
1. a painting is an object, not a life form. wrong example
2. as a life form, mankind can perpetuate itself on another life form of himself / herself, so I would say yes.
3. I'm not feeling that I'm a creature (or an alien), so the best answer is I don't know :cool:
To say number 1. is a wrong example, I must disagree!

It is just an example to explain the difference between the Creator and the Created, the Created being an object or a living creature!

From the perspective of the Created the Creator is unknowable and the Creator is the only one that can give us answers to His purpose and plan for Creation us being living creatures made up of objects called atoms!

Number 2. Where did the life form to become man come from and who says that an atom or an object is not a life from? what is the defenition of a creature or life form! What gives an atom life/existance can man create atoms out of nothing and himself from atoms/objects?

Number 3. I agree, gives you an open mind to investigate the truth, but if you leave the possibility of a Creator out of the Equation you are not open minded as some claimed to be and you will never discover the truth!......;):cool:


[Edited on 12-5-2012 by Maarschalk]
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Post by Kikoni »

From post: 150370, Topic: tid=10049, author=Maarschalk wrote:
From post: 150367, Topic: tid=10049, author=Munshine wrote:
I ask again can a Creature exsist without a Creator? Did Man Create Himself? Is it possible for a Painting to Create a Painting without an Artist? If so than give examples and proof that this is possible!.....;):cool:
1. a painting is an object, not a life form. wrong example
2. as a life form, mankind can perpetuate itself on another life form of himself / herself, so I would say yes.
3. I'm not feeling that I'm a creature (or an alien), so the best answer is I don't know :cool:
To say number 1. is a wrong example, I must disagree!

It is just an example to explain the difference between the Creator and the Created, the Created being an object or a living creature!

From the perspective of the Created the Creator is unknowable and the Creator is the only one that can give us answers to His purpose and plan for Creation us being living creatures made up of objects called atoms!

Number 3. I agree, gives you an open mind to investigate the truth, but if you leave the possibility of a Creator out of the Equation you are not open minded as some claimed to be and you will never discover the truth!......;):cool:
I'm actually enjoying your philosophical viewpoint, Maars. It's a nice mix up from the usual pure scientific viewpoint. I also agree with your logic. Being a long-time studier of philosophy, I find it well-studied and well-formulated. Keep it up.

Your also absolutely right about not being able to claim open-mindedness if rejecting the idea of a creator.
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Post by -splosives- »

If you bear in mind that humans are only 1.5% different in DNA than chimpanzee's, how can you say that human DNA is so special compared to any other living creature on earth?
I have never heard of any gaps in DNA really. I'd like to know more about this.

And yes, it is more far fetched for an aliens to travel to earth, creating humans, while there's creatures that are 98.5% the same as humans. It just makes more sense that we came from the same ancestors. This has nothing to do with being open minded, but more with common sense.
Regarding the gap in DNA again. Mutations are a very common phenomenon in DNA. This might be another example of it.
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Post by Kikoni »

From post: 150372, Topic: tid=10049, author=-splosives- wrote:If you bear in mind that humans are only 1.5% different in DNA than chimpanzee's, how can you say that human DNA is so special compared to any other living creature on earth?
I have never heard of any gaps in DNA really. I'd like to know more about this.

And yes, it is more far fetched for an aliens to travel to earth, creating humans, while there's creatures that are 98.5% the same as humans. It just makes more sense that we came from the same ancestors. This has nothing to do with being open minded, but more with common sense.
Regarding the gap in DNA again. Mutations are a very common phenomenon in DNA. This might be another example of it.

This has everything to do with being open-minded. Philosophically speaking, common sense is relative to the logic formulated by the person using said sense. Therefore it's practically folly to call it 'common'. To someone raised differently or with a completely different opinion/outlook than you, common sense may be completely different all the same, correct? Philosophically speaking, science itself has many gaps in it. This is due to our incapacity to understand at the level we need to to find all the answers we seek.

As Maars so aptly put it, can a painting know all the answers of its creator? No, indeed, it cannot. It can merely formulate with the science it, itself, has created. If it holds to true to its own formulated opinion, then it is even more folly.

Figuring everything out is always about open-mindedness. Common sense doesn't exist.

[Edited on 12-5-2012 by Kikoni]
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Post by -splosives- »

By common sense I mean measuring the chances of either theory to be true. In this case I think the chances of the evolution theory are a lot higher than those of aliens.
Think about how difficult it must be for aliens to invent interstellar travel. That's pretty difficult!
Then think about evolution. It's something that happens inevitably (according to the theory) .
So logically, evolution has a greater chance to be true.
I'm not saying the other theory is impossible, but it is more far fetched.
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Post by Maarschalk »

From post: 150371, Topic: tid=10049, author=Kikoni wrote:
From post: 150370, Topic: tid=10049, author=Maarschalk wrote:
From post: 150367, Topic: tid=10049, author=Munshine wrote:
I ask again can a Creature exsist without a Creator? Did Man Create Himself? Is it possible for a Painting to Create a Painting without an Artist? If so than give examples and proof that this is possible!.....;):cool:
1. a painting is an object, not a life form. wrong example
2. as a life form, mankind can perpetuate itself on another life form of himself / herself, so I would say yes.
3. I'm not feeling that I'm a creature (or an alien), so the best answer is I don't know :cool:
To say number 1. is a wrong example, I must disagree!

It is just an example to explain the difference between the Creator and the Created, the Created being an object or a living creature!

From the perspective of the Created the Creator is unknowable and the Creator is the only one that can give us answers to His purpose and plan for Creation us being living creatures made up of objects called atoms!

Number 3. I agree, gives you an open mind to investigate the truth, but if you leave the possibility of a Creator out of the Equation you are not open minded as some claimed to be and you will never discover the truth!......;):cool:
I'm actually enjoying your philosophical viewpoint, Maars. It's a nice mix up from the usual pure scientific viewpoint. I also agree with your logic. Being a long-time studier of philosophy, I find it well-studied and well-formulated. Keep it up.

Your also absolutely right about not being able to claim open-mindedness if rejecting the idea of a creator.
Thanks Kikoni,

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Post by Viper »

@Maars:
I also enjoy your comparison between a creature and its creator and a painting and its painter. I find it quite an illustrating comparison and you did in fact get me thinking about it. There is indeed a certain logic to it.

I also have to give you credit for your statement that one can not be 100% open minded if he doesn't take the theory of one single creator into account. There are however a couple of difficulties with this theory if you want to include it into the balance, which are probably often the reasons for it not to be included.

1)
The theory of one creator that/who is almighty and above everything, is used too often and too easily for my taste to explain questions for which no answers can be found elsewhere. "It is the work of the creator" and terms like that are terms I heard a few times too often and can be used - and in my experience are used - on any given moment by those who have no explanation for a certain question.
I do understand that this is exactly why it is called a religion or belief - you have to belief it in order to accept it as plausible. But this brings us to point 2.

2)
Blindly (as in without proof) 'believing' does not sit well with those people - including yours truly - who try to think from a scientific point of view. These people look for hard evidence, proof, or at least enough arguments to arrive at a 'beyond reasonable doubt' situation to accept a certain situation as plausible. Simply 'believing' or 'having faith' holds no evidence, proof or arguments what so ever, and therefor goes directly against the way these people think.

Apart from that, there might be more arguments to prove/disprove the theory of one single creator. Some people might point to events shown on the daily news as proof against the theory. In my experience, this is often responded to by the believers of the single-creator theory (ie religious people) with: "Do not question God's ways", or "The Lord works in mysterious ways". These are arguments that hold no factual proof and are void of any form of objectivity, and often cause the discussion to turn ugly or end.


That said, I do agree that it is the duty of every scientist, every self-proclaimed open-minded person and even a simple objective theorist to take into account each and every possible theory, whether or not he finds them plausible. Not doing so would indicate the presence of a certain level of prejudice, which would directly contradict the open-minded and objective nature of these people.

So the theory of one single creator must be taken into account. It must also be said that said people must for the sake of open-mindedness accept the possibility that there are forces at work in the universe which modern day science - or our present intellectual level for that matter - cannot explain (yet). And that these forces might be proven some time in the future not be of religious nature, but possibly of a higher level of nature or dimension than we now cannot comprehend.

I must also point out, however, that this kind of real open-mindedness is quite often lacking in the religious people, at least talking from my own experience with discussions like these. I don't mean to generalize.
In fact, I have never spoken to a religious person who also sincerely took other possible theories into consideration. They seemed so convinced of their theory of one god, that they dismissed any and all other theories before they even gave it any serious thought. Which often made me wonder why they even took part in the discussion in the first place. Obviously these people don't join such a discussion to take part in it in a constructive manner and observe if from all angles, but to convince the others that their theory (ie religion) is the one and only explanation.

In this perspective, it is interesting to note that there are theories right now that state that what some of us now call 'God' is actually a yet unexplained force of nature that operates at higher dimensions (some talk about 'vibrations') than humans do now. If this would in time turn out to be true, than that would be extremely interesting. It would not only reveal a sentient presence that is older than anything in the universe, but it would also unite science and religion, just like you said.

Whatever may be true, I feel no man should ever think they definitely know how it works. We will never know exactly how the wheels turn, or have any proof one way or another, until that day when we do receive that indisputable proof that nobody can possibly deny.

Until such a time, I must admit that religious people are better off, for they have a certain peace of mind believing that the story of the single creator is the explanation of how everything came to be, whereas scientific minded people will always be looking for a better explanation. ;)



Edit:
Balls! I just couldn't do it without editing! :(

[Edited on 12-5-2012 by Viper]
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The Thinking of the Outside of that there Box...

Post by Marvin »

:cool: Just a reminder, guys: my last philosophy class was about 40 years ago ... so I don't plan to peruse this thread. Ergo, if you find something offensive and what you consider to be a violation of forum rules, go ahead and "report" it. Else, enjoy your conversation.
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The Thinking of the Outside of that there Box...

Post by Viper »

Yes it's quite easy to be or feel offended when discussing topics like these, and difficult to express yourself without sounding offensive, especially if your native language is not English.
I for one can say that I'm not out to offend anyone what so ever. Likewise, I will also hold back with the 'report' button, but just step back from the discussion if and when I might feel offend. Although I highly doubt that's gonna happen.
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The Thinking of the Outside of that there Box...

Post by Maarschalk »

From post: 150378, Topic: tid=10049, author=Viper wrote:@Maars:
I also enjoy your comparison between a creature and its creator and a painting and its painter. I find it quite an illustrating comparison and you did in fact get me thinking about it. There is indeed a certain logic to it.

I also have to give you credit for your statement that one can not be 100% open minded if he doesn't take the theory of one single creator into account. There are however a couple of difficulties with this theory if you want to include it into the balance, which are probably often the reasons for it not to be included.

1)
The theory of one creator that/who is almighty and above everything, is used too often and too easily for my taste to explain questions for which no answers can be found elsewhere. "It is the work of the creator" and terms like that are terms I heard a few times too often and can be used - and in my experience are used - on any given moment by those who have no explanation for a certain question.
I do understand that this is exactly why it is called a religion or belief - you have to belief it in order to accept it as plausible. But this brings us to point 2.

2)
Blindly (as in without proof) 'believing' does not sit well with those people - including yours truly - who try to think from a scientific point of view. These people look for hard evidence, proof, or at least enough arguments to arrive at a 'beyond reasonable doubt' situation to accept a certain situation as plausible. Simply 'believing' or 'having faith' holds no evidence, proof or arguments what so ever, and therefor goes directly against the way these people think.

Apart from that, there might be more arguments to prove/disprove the theory of one single creator. Some people might point to events shown on the daily news as proof against the theory. In my experience, this is often responded to by the believers of the single-creator theory (ie religious people) with: "Do not question God's ways", or "The Lord works in mysterious ways". These are arguments that hold no factual proof and are void of any form of objectivity, and often cause the discussion to turn ugly or end.


That said, I do agree that it is the duty of every scientist, every self-proclaimed open-minded person and even a simple objective theorist to take into account each and every possible theory, whether or not he finds them plausible. Not doing so would indicate the presence of a certain level of prejudice, which would directly contradict the open-minded and objective nature of these people.

So the theory of one single creator must be taken into account. It must also be said that said people must for the sake of open-mindedness accept the possibility that there are forces at work in the universe which modern day science - or our present intellectual level for that matter - cannot explain (yet). And that these forces might be proven some time in the future not be of religious nature, but possibly of a higher level of nature or dimension than we now cannot comprehend.

I must also point out, however, that this kind of real open-mindedness is quite often lacking in the religious people, at least talking from my own experience with discussions like these. I don't mean to generalize.
In fact, I have never spoken to a religious person who also sincerely took other possible theories into consideration. They seemed so convinced of their theory of one god, that they dismissed any and all other theories before they even gave it any serious thought. Which often made me wonder why they even took part in the discussion in the first place.

In this perspective, it is interesting to note that there are theories right now that state that what some of us now call 'God' is actually a yet unexplained force of nature that operates at higher dimensions (some talk about 'vibrations') than humans do now. If this would in time turn out to be true, than that would be extremely interesting. It would not only reveal a sentient presence that is older than anything in the universe, but it would also unite science and religion, just like you said.

Whatever may be true, I feel no man should ever think they definitely know how it works. We will never know exactly how the wheels turn, or have any proof one way or another, until that day when we do receive that indisputable proof that nobody can possibly deny.

Until such a time, I must admit that religious people are better off, for they have a certain peace of mind believing that the story of the single creator is the explanation of how everything came to be, whereas scientific minded people will always be looking for a better explanation. ;)



Edit:
Balls! I just couldn't do it without editing! :(

[Edited on 12-5-2012 by Viper]
This is great Viper!

The proof of a single God/Creator which He Himself tells us is Unknowable through His Manifestations will be a futile attempt by man, His creation! Let alone use science from our limited perspective to proof His existance!

The Creator tells us the purpose of His Creation(To get to know Him) and how to get to know Him(Through His Manifestations) and how to recognize His true Manifestations from the false ones, to investigate with an open mind and free from self(ego) and passion!

All Religions agree on the fundamental principles but it is man who after a Manifestation had passed away interpet the scriptures and have written the scriptures for interpetation in the past and hence created man made religions!

Science which is a man made philosophy to explain things and is a bounty bestowed upon us by Him will never be adequate to proof Gods Existance.

And what is proof?
Proof is only proof if you believe and accept it as such!

So do we have an option?
Does the Created have an option other then the Creators intended purpose? Can a Painting become a Table if the Artists purpose was to make a Painting?

We can only turn towards our Creator for answers for He has given us the tools(Science and Religion) and given us free will so He can test us in our development.

What is the definition and purpose of a test?
Can you fail or pass a test if you do not have a choice(free will independent open minded investigation of the truth)?

An annimal does not have free will, if it is hungry it will kill to eat, it does not have a choice. A plant does not have a choice where its fruits and seeds fall it does not have a choice!

God tests us to see how far we have developed and will send accordingly to our receptiveness and readiness a new test(Manifestation) The Manifestations them self all say: no one comes to the Creator but through Me(Example "No one comes to the Father but through Me). Meaning to get to know our Creator the only way is through His Manifestation for the time and age your living in! This is the test: searching, discovering and investigating with an open unbiased mind using Science and Religion, the truth of the claim of any Manifestation of God!

To limit or discovery and test to only a certain Religion or Science will make us fail the test of accepting the Return of Christ when he Returns! as Christ has warned us Himself. He said: "I will Return in the Glory of the Father(God)" All Major Religions have said that their Founder/Manifestion will return in the future.

Bahá'u'lláh claims to be the Return of Christ this Manifestation proclaimed to return at the end of times by all Major Religions. Bahá'u'lláh translated means "Glory of God"

Science used properly is just a tool for us to use for discovery of the truth it can not be used by itself purely to proof anything!.....;):cool:



[Edited on 12-5-2012 by Maarschalk]
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The Thinking of the Outside of that there Box...

Post by Munshine »

You are entitled to your opinion, Maarschalk. I respect that. Unfortunately I'm more sharing -Splosives- and Viper (at least partially) views. According to me, Theology must be removed from Metaphysic. It's reasonable for my sake to stay offside from the single or multiple Creator(s) theory.
Thus it's why I think that a painting is still an inanimate non intelligent object.

I hope I don't sound offensive to anyone this time.



[Edited on 12-5-2012 by Munshine]
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The Thinking of the Outside of that there Box...

Post by Major Grubert »

for me the idea of one god creator looks to much old fashioned, as much as the pure scientist vision of a cold world rule by logic gambling and natural laws....

all this is mens creations

Before that we had Egyptians or Greek visions, think about the old asians mythical visions, hundreds gods and deities

for me faith is a personal view, religion is a social view, and science is a social tool coming from persons which, at first, changed the way they look at the world, religions

in our world the most famous scientist can be a very good believer, and a priest can be a very valuable scientist

this is progress
i guess

i believe in the multiverse itself, it's there, all the time, it is part of me as i am part of it, i dont need proof for that nor theory or explanations, beauty dont need to be explained, humans need explanations, especially mens, boys, never see that ?

i recognize my thinking/cognitive capacity's as valuable tools to survive better and enjoy more this time-share in space-time continuum with other life forms, before that and after that it's poetry and lots of beers

my 2 cents out of the box :)
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The Thinking of the Outside of that there Box...

Post by Viper »

Well spoken, monsieur Grubert! I really enjoy all the colorful opinions in this thread. It's very nice to see a couple of people not being afraid to speak their honest opinions on such a delicate subject. :)
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The Thinking of the Outside of that there Box...

Post by Kikoni »

From post: 150416, Topic: tid=10049, author=Viper wrote:Well spoken, monsieur Grubert! I really enjoy all the colorful opinions in this thread. It's very nice to see a couple of people not being afraid to speak their honest opinions on such a delicate subject. :)
Indeed! This has to be one of the most thought-provoking threads I've ever seen, and that's saying something. I enjoy hearing everyone's opinion on the matter, every viewpoint and theory, and the fact that it developed from just Dominus' post to a collective archive of theoretical hypothesis.

Let's keep it up, gentlemen!
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The Thinking of the Outside of that there Box...

Post by Maarschalk »

From post: 150417, Topic: tid=10049, author=Kikoni wrote:
From post: 150416, Topic: tid=10049, author=Viper wrote:Well spoken, monsieur Grubert! I really enjoy all the colorful opinions in this thread. It's very nice to see a couple of people not being afraid to speak their honest opinions on such a delicate subject. :)
Indeed! This has to be one of the most thought-provoking threads I've ever seen, and that's saying something. I enjoy hearing everyone's opinion on the matter, every viewpoint and theory, and the fact that it developed from just Dominus' post to a collective archive of theoretical hypothesis.
Let's keep it up, gentlemen!
I agree, this is the purpose of freedom of expresion and free will.
And I hope I have not offended any one nor do I feel offended by any ones honest opinion, far be it from my intentions. Just sharing and expressing my thoughts and opinions from my relative perspective and hope that we all learn something worth while from it for your own sakes not even my own!......;):cool:

[Edited on 12-5-2012 by Maarschalk]
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