New Frames & Inventory Console Features

Post by **DaveK** » Tue May 31, 2011 5:58 pm

Sorry - but I have to say it again: if you want a toy box, go and buy a toy box. from the number of people who start their improvements with " in XXXX it's really cool when you do/see/get XYZ". Please don't try to make my sandbox something else because you don't find sand interesting!

But, if it could be fitted into the game engine a more flexible mod set would allow my holy grail - optional "improvements" 9rather than compulsory ones!)

I suspect the contract system is like it is to minimise having to have thousands of system dependent contracts and the byte bloat that would ensue - but if they could become more interesting (not just the same but harder) then different systems would have their unique "flavours" Perhaps stations could have a focus - selling agricultural stuff when orbitting agric planets and paying a premium for techy stuff, rather than system wide pricing - but again it might not fit easily into the game engine. After all, one comment is how small the code is for such a big and rich system.

Perhaps people who discover a system could be allowed to write its history? Perhaps rewards for some contracts could be a prize of being able to write an already discovered systems story - then again if other people have my story telling ability, perhaps not! Perhaps each system could have a special bonus given when it is discovered to the discoverer - this would work in SP, but would conflict with SeeJay's mapping system unless you have the willpower of a saint!

I'm very very happy to vote again for the hint/story idea in some format or other!

One last point : randomness is not the same as variety

[Edited on 31-5-2011 by DaveK]

Jack Dandy · Post by **Jack Dandy** » Tue May 31, 2011 6:12 pm

I really like what Rush was saying.
There should be more reasons to explore. And as mentioned in the other thread, more fluff certainly won't hurt. Even slight variations on existing contracts?

Maybe lower prices in planet markets than their respective stations?

We just need some more reasons to do things besides "It's there".

Nigel_Strange · Post by **Nigel_Strange** » Tue May 31, 2011 6:58 pm

DaveK had a good idea: having systems with different economies offering different types of goods. Essentially, it would be changing the economy slightly, so instead of a basic single value for "economy" determining the prices for everything, some systems would have higher prices for tech, while others higher prices for food, etc.

I think that this is already implemented to some extent, however, it doesn't really work that way. Platinum is the most expensive (hence the best commodity) anywhere. Why would you move food from a planet to a station if you could move platinum instead? The result is that people on stations would starve. The solution is for the price discrepancy for food must produce enough profit incentive to move it.

I think that units should be in tons or some other quantity. For instance, you can carry 25 tons of food or 25 tons of plat. I imagine that the space required for 25 tons of food would be much greater. However, to people starving on a space station, 25 tons of food would be more valuable.

I think that in addition to building stations, a more dynamic universe would be intoxicating. For instance: you discover a planet. You might have the option of disclosing the location to the nearby Federation or Alliance base. You get a monetary reward for the discovery and, in addition, you can name the planet. Then, maybe a month later, you return to the planet and discover that there is a colony on it. Later, you find a city on it. I imagine that the coding for this behavior would be huge. I think that would make exploring more interesting.

To some extent, we have something like that, but it is a player instituted map online.

Post by **DaveK** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:25 pm

I remember Elite having to work like that because each system only had one planet and so price differentials were based on flying from system to system. In Evochron this basic differential could exist within a system and an even bigger differential could exist between systems

Thinking of Elite - the BBC B had 32K of RAM (yep 32 Kilobytes) - 2 K was taken by the operating system for basic functioning; for the B&W graphics mode that Elite was written in, the operating sytem took another 14 Kbytes - leaving 16 Kbytes to code the whole game (no loading extra code between systems!) Hence wireframe graphics, one planet/one star/one station per system and no landing on the planets. I remember reading that the 8 galaxies of 256 systems each (each of the 2048 systems had a unique name) was actually coded in about 512 bytes (yep - 512 bytes = half a kilobyte = one two thousandth of a megabyte) using mathematical formulae to create the names and info. A high res icon in Windows uses twice the memory that a BBC B computer possessed in total. My present PC has 250 000 times that much memory and has extra memory for it's own use. Nostalgia is actually better than it used to be!

:D:D:D:D:D:D

Elite had cannon and views facing front - rear - left - right, plus missiles (one flavour) plus the equivalent of FTs except that they destroyed every other ship around you. And, most memorably . . . "Everyone can hear you scream in space" thanks to the rescue pod beacon!

Evochron is actually what we used to dream in our wildest dreams Elite could be (and then some!) if computers didn't have any limits at all

Rush · Post by **Rush** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:14 pm

In these discussions, I always remind the Escape Velocity series. It's a lot like Evochron, except multiplayer, and has some features like the bar that are very interesting.
Actually, all the main quests were found at the bar

A good thing of that game, was that the universe changed only when the player completed main quests. For example the attack of a system, or a first contact with a species. It would be nice to see something like this implemented in Evochron. It would also be optional: if you want to change the universe, do the quest. If not, just ignore it.
I would like to see a human quest where we can build new gates to invade Vonari systems, and the same on the opposite side

Why not also adding new unknown species, for the exploration part, maybe bound somehow to a quest. Find the new species with some hint, see who they are, trade or maybe fight with them

In multiplayer the "universe change" option could be just inhibited.

My idea is that the more different contracts and quests we have, the better it is

[Edited on 1-6-2011 by Rush]

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:33 pm

I know that game! Unfortunately it is only available for MAC.
I would love to play it.

Rush · Post by **Rush** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:59 pm

Wikipedia says that EV Nova (the last one) has a port for Windows

A great feature of that game was the plug-in feature, that is what i described for Evochron: editable resources to make new missions and quests, as well as systems, governments, ships, technology etc etc...

Edit: I just downloaded the free trial version from Ambrosia's website

[Edited on 1-6-2011 by Rush]

Nerevar_X · Post by **Nerevar_X** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:24 am

First of all the whole part of the game that boasts of exploration makes no sense. Given the way to travel across space involves "jumping" from point to point just a few squares (even with the best unit) it takes absolutely forever.

I cannot believe any regular player found the hidden planet in the Pearl system for doing that money-making run. It's just so incredibly far away it takes a buttload of jumps. Unless maybe they cheated somehow.

In anycase, more stuff on the planets would be great.
Farther jump distances.
Better Quad/Nav map, it's a real pain the way you have to zoom in/out, right click. You can just pan over easily like in other games, its pretty annoying.

Biggest suggestion: make it worth it to get the better weapons/shields/gear. I have the best everything and I still get blown to piece by noob NPC ships after just several hits. It seems to be the NPC's level up with you. I noticed when I went back to one system, I saw alot of Starmasters flying around after I got mine. What gives? What is the point of trying to get the best stuff if everyone else can take what you dish out? Its really kills the game and makes it all feel quite pointless.

Also, all those missions to blow up a big ship and like 15 small ships. Well, unless you do some weird thing like fly away and try to pick them off one at a time, well, that doesn't actually work all the time. at least not for me. Maybe if I'm nerd enough to play the game a zillion times I will soon recognized all the minor juts and zips the NPC pilots make to realize a pattern and habits that I can use against them. Maybe monkeys will fly out of my butt too. Either way, you can't fight them odds really. I blasted an unprotected cap ship and my uber-weapons and missiles didn't do anything. I guess I need a Fulcrum torp to take those out. I read some posts about cap ships being too easy which I find to be laughable since I blasted the crap out of them for a minute or two and didnt dent their shields. A bug? If not, what idiot wants to sit there for 10min. shooting a ship. Also, when it did seem I would start to dent anything it would warp away. NICE. Not really.
I'm also playing Space Rangers II and Parkan II. When you get higher level/stronger weapons/shields, you can deal out and absorb more damage. If my ship with Level 5 equipment runs into a Level 1, 2, 3, 4 ship I am going to probably kick its arse. In Evochron, my hard earned cash to get the best weaps/shields only seems mean it will take 1 less shot to blow up a target or I can only take 1 more hit before I actually explode.

Game "manual" also doesn't explain how to do half the things you can do in the game. Consider revising it. I heard you can recruit NPC ships but I can never find how to do that. I heard you have to get within about 4K or 2K clicks of a friendly NPC ship and in the ship-to-ship trade menu with them there should be an option to hire. I have never seen that though.

[Edited on 6-2-2011 by Nerevar_X]

Post by **Marvin** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:52 am

Dingo · Post by **Dingo** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:03 am

I hear you Marvin. I was going to go into it, but then...nah

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:16 am

Mr. Nerevar_X,
I read your post with some sympathy and understanding. When I first started, I too, felt that destroying a cap ship was out of the question. I used to avoid contracts that asked me to do so.
However, that was before I finally joined MP and got to fly with some other pilots.
There are nuances to the game that are best understood & mastered by sharing contracts. I now feel confident that I can safely destroy cap ships quite easily.
The nav map was another of my pitfalls. I am old & stubborn and stuck in familiar ways and didn't like it either. Now that I have mastered it, with the help & encouragement of other players, I feel quite comfortable with it and it makes sence. Seems like sometimes it's easy to trash the things we don't understand.
I am amazzed that you read the manual, so few do. Congratulations. But I suppose it may take some understandings for granted. Depends on how you look at it.
Now I have never been much good at exploring myself, but it seems some players are more inclined and have the temperment for it. So yes, somebody did manage to fly out and find hidden Pearl and a lot of other places. I don't have the talent for exploration and don't hold it against the game. Once yoiu are in MP, other players will generally be helpful with giving you the co-ords to other places, some you may never heard of!
I would like to see some other way to make finding these hidden places a little easier, but that's up to the author. In the meantime I rely on the help from other players in MP.
So, in conclusion, I highly recommend you give the game another chance and try MP a few times. I know you will not regret it.
Good Hunting and I hope to see you out there...

:)

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:16 am

Nerevar_X, Maybe your uber weapons are not so uber as you think, maybe you are not close enough, maybe you run out of energy and need to recharge, giving the capital ship time to regenerate shields.
I can assure you that it takes waaaay less then 10 minutes to blast a capital ship to space debris, and I use an IceSpear cannon, a class 2 cannon and a Fusion Laser.
As for fighting the AI, it's not that hard, it just requires some training of mastering Inertial flight for combat.

I too found the game rediculously hard when I started playing, then I started to learn Inertial combat and trained myself to first fight 1 ship at a time, then 4 and trained myself more by flying to harder systems where you can fight 10+ foes via contracts.
Now I can beat a 5 waypoint contract with 12 foes per waypoint without even having to reload fuel or countermeasures and without any form of backup, just me and my trusty Avenger.

Flash · Post by **Flash** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:17 pm

From post: 107923, Topic: tid=7616, author=SeeJay wrote:I would also like to see some more difficult docking procedure. Now you can basicly crash into a station
and dock without any penalty.

Something like landing on a carrier at night....

It is more difficult on bad weather planets but I agree. Maybe a few very very difficult planets to land on with extra special equipment or missles.

Flash · Post by **Flash** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:21 pm

Just a thought, how about some very very experimental super equipment with many quirks.

Rush · Post by **Rush** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:00 pm

Or why not random generated equipment, especially weapons, with random statistics, or contracts that involve more than one phase, like escort+deliver cargo or something

Post by **DaveK** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:23 pm

From post: 108019, Topic: tid=7616, author=Rush wrote:Or why not random generated equipment, especially weapons, with random statistics, or contracts that involve more than one phase, like escort+deliver cargo or something

I like the possibility of doubling (or trebling) on contracts, though remember that you can't save during a contract.

I must be missing something, but random weapons???? Why would I want a missile with a range of 10, a speed of 10 000 and a yield of 50? ditto canon etc etc. All that would happen is that I would have to resist the temptation to reload over and over again until I got a randon throw of max range, max refire, max yield and then I would stick with it. 20 minutes reloading and I'm back where you started (bored??) but with a gun that makes combat easier (more boring???)

Post by **DaveK** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:24 pm

From post: 108018, Topic: tid=7616, author=Flash wrote:Just a thought, how about some very very experimental super equipment with many quirks.

The way I fly, my ship feels like it is fully equipped with that stuff anyway

:P:P:P:P

Rush · Post by **Rush** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:14 pm

Yeah, probably the random equipment is not a great idea

Probably the best way of improving the game is enhancing the exploration and contract parts

I would also like to investigate phenomena, like different types of stars, different nebulae, asteroid caves etc... with many many things to find. Like "easter eggs" in many places

And why not some pseudo-scientific news, like a planet/stellar body classification. For example the science officer could provide information about a planet (star nebula etc) that can be sold to a research station to get money and reputation. A "scan stellar body" function could provide some data. The more and more accurate data, the more money we get when we get back to a research station

Wasp89 · Post by **Wasp89** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:06 pm

From post: 108017, Topic: tid=7616, author=Flash wrote:
From post: 107923, Topic: tid=7616, author=SeeJay wrote:I would also like to see some more difficult docking procedure. Now you can basicly crash into a station
and dock without any penalty.

Something like landing on a carrier at night....
It is more difficult on bad weather planets but I agree. Maybe a few very very difficult planets to land on with extra special equipment or missles.

There is at least one space station that I can think of that is particularly difficult to dock with, thanks to some rather nasty weather conditions surrounding it.

Of course, you WILL blow up if you don't line yourself up just right when doing a high speed docking procedure with any of the carriers in the game! When compared to docking with space stations, there is a difference akin to the difference between landing at an airport and trying to land on a carrier in real life.

[Edited on 6-2-2011 by Wasp89]

Post by **DaveK** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:26 pm

From post: 108024, Topic: tid=7616, author=Rush wrote:Yeah, probably the random equipment is not a great idea

Probably the best way of improving the game is enhancing the exploration and contract parts
I would also like to investigate phenomena, like different types of stars, different nebulae, asteroid caves etc... with many many things to find. Like "easter eggs" in many places
And why not some pseudo-scientific news, like a planet/stellar body classification. For example the science officer could provide information about a planet (star nebula etc) that can be sold to a research station to get money and reputation. A "scan stellar body" function could provide some data. The more and more accurate data, the more money we get when we get back to a research station

Some nice ideas there!

Post by **DaveK** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:40 pm

From post: 108025, Topic: tid=7616, author=Wasp89 wrote:Of course, you WILL blow up if you don't line yourself up just right when doing a high speed docking procedure with any of the carriers in the game! When compared to docking with space stations, there is a difference akin to the difference between landing at an airport and trying to land on a carrier in real life.

[Edited on 6-2-2011 by Wasp89]

Ok - back to the original question - apart from the fact some people seem to want everything to be hard because if it isn't they get bored, what is wrong with landing at an airport (without the modern 21st C Sol development of computer assisted landings)? What improvement appears in the game for most pilots, most of the time in most systems by stopping them landing smoothly, rather than having to be a Tom Cruise imitation in "Top Gun" every time they want to trade, refuel, find a contract or re-equip?

Landing on (in?) a Navy Carrier (!!!!) perhaps should be harder than landing in a civilian station, though unlike a US Navy Carrier (Earth 20th Century) the Evochron carriers aren't pitching about in the sea of space with side winds getting in the way!

You might as well suggest a lottery when buying and selling (aka stock market) and a percentage of dud missiles and weapons "rounds" (as in the real military world) and random "friendly fire" (an oxymoron if ever there was one) wherever you go - it would certainly make a difference to the game . . . .but would it be an improvement?

:):):):):)

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:52 pm

Crashing into any station/carrier/city shouldn't end in a successful docking.
That's how it is now and doesn't need any skill at all. I just think it's wrong.

It could be an "auto dock" feature for those that don't like it harder. (if docking is to hard).
I would like that it required at least some skill to dock.

Dingo · Post by **Dingo** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:21 pm

Personally, I'm against anything that requires skill. However, I do believe that docking should require more style.

Post by **Marvin** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:09 am

From post: 108032, Topic: tid=7616, author=Dingo79 wrote:Personally, I'm against anything that requires skill.

I'm hanging that motto over my computer desk.

Jack Dandy · Post by **Jack Dandy** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:34 am

From post: 108032, Topic: tid=7616, author=Dingo79 wrote:Personally, I'm against anything that requires skill.

I'm all for skill-based gameplay, especially considering this game isn't a number-cruncher like EVE.