Spacecraft approaching the speed of light or C

Cheri50000 · Post by **Cheri50000** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:27 am

Hi, Guys!

I got another feature request for evochron: instead of acceleration slowing down when going up to about the speed of 5,000, let's make the spacecraft start accelerating more slowly when approaching the speed of light or 299,792.5 kilometers per second when using the afterburner in inertial mode. Since there is no friction in the vacuum of space it is possible to accelerate the spacecraft to an ever greater velocity way higher than the speed of 5,000. I think the spacecraft's maximum speed should be 299,792.5 kilometers per second, not 7.9 kilometers per second. Thanks!

Cheers,
Vincent

[Edited on 2-2-2012 by Cheri50000]

Ora · Post by **Ora** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:58 am

I kind of agree with you on this, but it would probably deplete your fuel to get to that speed, and you may not even make it to that speed even then.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:58 am

It is not that simple!
To keep accelerating you will keep needing fuel even when there is no friction. No friction means in space you get moving at a constant speed that the last force applied to your ship. If you cut your engines you keep moving at a constant speed on inertia you do not accelarate un less you turn your engines back on. And as you accelerate and your speed increases so does your mass and you will need more fuel to accelerate the mass more! So at some point you will need massive amount of fuel which also in itself ads to the mass of the ship to keep accelerating to the speed of light. You do not keep accelerating without a constant increasing force applied to the increasing mass!

[Edited on 2-2-2012 by Maarschalk]

Post by **Marvin** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:39 am

Supposedly, your mass is infinite at the speed* of light. Which would cause most MoBo's to overheat and graphics cards to fall to the center of the earth.

* I could never figure out why speed would cause an increase in mass when, normally, it's acceleration that changes mass.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:10 am

From post: 128354, Topic: tid=8759, author=Marvin wrote: Supposedly, your mass is infinite at the speed* of light. Which would cause most MoBo's to overheat and graphics cards to fall to the center of the earth.

* I could never figure out why speed would cause an increase in mass when, normally, it's acceleration that changes mass.

E=mcÂ², m=mass, c=constant=speed of light.

To keep it simple let use 2 units for the speed of light.
E=m2Â² say m=1 unit of mass so E=1x2Â²=4
now I apply 8 units of energy to try to accelerate the mass to the speed of light So 8=m2Â² this means that the mass has increased to 2 because now if I apply another 8 energy units the mass is still 2 at the current speed it is moving so to accelerate it a little more closer to the speed of light I have to apply now 16 units of energy so now 16=m2Â² so m=4 now at a little bit closer to light speed and so on.

So every time to accelerate an object to a faster speed in space you need more energy. If the mass stayed constant then acceleration should stay constant at the same amount of energy applied but it is not as DaveK's charts show!....

So say you are traveling close to the speed of light and you are trying to match your speed to that of light the amount of Energy needed to accelerate the mass to the speed of light means that the mass must have increased moving close to the speed of light!

Cheri50000 · Post by **Cheri50000** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:33 am

Hi, Maarschalk!

Yes, I know about the mass increases with increasing speed but much faster than the speed of 5,000 or 5 kilometers per second, more like about 50,000,000 or 50,000 kilometers per second! I think this needs to fixed in evochron. For example when the fuel level is 400, you might be able to accelerate your ship up to about 100,000-150,000 or 100-150 kilometers per second.

Cheers,
Vincent

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:41 am

From post: 128391, Topic: tid=8759, author=Cheri50000 wrote:Hi, Maarschalk!

Yes, I know about the mass increases with increasing speed but much faster than the speed of 5,000 or 5 kilometers per second, more like about 50,000,000 or 50,000 kilometers per second! I think this needs to fixed in evochron. For example when the fuel level is 400, you might be able to accelerate your ship up to about 100,000-150,000 or 100-150 kilometers per second.

Cheers,
Vincent

The way it currently is in the game is to balance the scaled down reality of the Evochron Universe and not make travel to long or to short to a point where it becomes to boring and easy because you can get every where very fast or it takes to long to get any where so that players get frustrated quickly....

[Edited on 2-2-2012 by Maarschalk]

Cheri50000 · Post by **Cheri50000** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:31 pm

Hi, Maarschalk!

That's true, that would be hard for the players. With 400 fuel, you won't be able to get up to speed of light anyway, I would like to see in the game is be able to accelerate way past 7,900 meters per second, since in space, the speed of 7,900 meters per second is nothing. For example, like in the Sapphire system when flying from 3 sectors to another, I would like to go faster than 7,900 meters per second, but would like to go 50,000 meters per second or 50 kilometers per second. Thanks!

Cheers,
Vincent

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:48 pm

I know what you are saying, I do not see a need for it however since with a class5 or Mantis jumpdrive set on Autopilot you can prety much travel faster then 50k/s. the 10k limit is that of your speedometer but when you are jumping you are traveling faster then that. If you jump 5 sectors with a class 5 jumpdrive that is 10000km/15seconds= 666 km/s you are traveling at while your speedometer only reads 10km/s......

[Edited on 2-2-2012 by Maarschalk]

Cheri50000 · Post by **Cheri50000** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:30 pm

Hi, Maarschalk!

The class5 or mantis jump drive is used for traveling very long distances like for example from Sapphire to Thuban system or to pearl system. But when traveling only 3 or 5 sectors, all you need is speed like moving at 50,000 meters per second or 50 kilometers Per second or 164,000 feet per second. If you travel from Sapphire to Thuban system which is at the SZ -500 or 1,000,000 kilometers away fron Sapphire at the speed of 50,000 meters per second or 50 kilometers per second, it would take 20,000 seconds or about 5 and a half hours and to go from Sapphire to Thuban quickly the jump drive would have to be used. So maybe on spacecraft's speedometer, instead of >10k let's make it >100k.

Cheers,
Vincent

FinFoxx · Post by **FinFoxx** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:33 pm

its still faster to hit f2, no need 5Â½ hour in a game

[Edited on 2-2-2012 by FinFoxx]

Cheri50000 · Post by **Cheri50000** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:14 pm

Hi, Guys

What I would like to see in the next release is the ability to go up to speed of light if the spacecraft have enough fuel, the spacecraft's speedometer needs to be changed from >10k to >100k and the ability to go faster than the maximum speed of 7,900 meters per second. Thanks!

Cheers,
Vincent

Archmage · Post by **Archmage** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:07 am

Let me throw a real slider on the C thing.
As an object approaches the speed of light "C," the mass of the object does increase, theoretically, it would require the total mass of the universe to actually match "C." But, what most theorists miss is that the mass of the fuel also increases, allowing for more force moving forward. This is the case since the fuel is an internal force as opposed to an external force that could not possibly generate enough force to surpass "C." Given this, Einstein's is applicable only if the force acting of an object is external, such as the energy being used to accelerate particles at the Large Hadron Collider. We cannot infuse enough force to exceed "C." However, if the particle would have it's own internal propulsion source, we could push an object to near "C" and then, using the particle's expanded mass to force beyond "C." So, while "E=Mc^2" is valid, it can only be applied insofar as an external force acting on an object. It cannot apply to an object using it's own propulsion source since the source would also increase in mass and force approaching "C".

Archmage (quantum physicist)

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:16 am

BTW Vice answered a recent post about speed vs. distance covered. I don't remember the exact name of the post, but it's Meters per second not Kilometers per second for the speed. 7500 mps = 7.5 Kps.

Post by **Marvin** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:17 am

Starting at Sol, point your ship in the direction of Pluto, engage inertial, and use A/B to get your ship going as fast as it can. Time it. Then consider how long it takes a real space ship to make that same trip in the real solar system.

Cheri50000 · Post by **Cheri50000** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:07 am

Hi, guys!

Did you guys see my last post about the next release of evochron I would like to see the spacecraft's speedometer to be changed from >10k to >100k and the ability to go up to speed of light if there is enough fuel, keep accelerating up to the speed of about 100,000 or 100 kilometers per second with 400 fuel and up to the speed of about 200,000 or 200 kilometers per second with 800 fuel, ect.? Thanks!

Cheers,
Vincent

[Edited on 2-3-2012 by Cheri50000]

Post by **Marvin** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:09 am

From post: 128597, Topic: tid=8759, author=Cheri50000 wrote:Did you guys see my last post ...?

Welcome to the club. These guys have been ignoring my suggestions for a couple years now. And that was before the forum was swamped with posts.

Cheri50000 · Post by **Cheri50000** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:17 am

Hi, Marvin!

How come these guys are ignoring your suggestions? Did you see my last post about I want to see improvements in spacecraft's speed in the next release of evochron? Thanks!

Cheers,
Vincent

Post by **Marvin** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:17 am

You mean the one that's a few posts up on this same page? Nope. I ignored it.

Cheri50000 · Post by **Cheri50000** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:21 am

Hi, Marvin!

I'm trying to help you guys make evochron as realistic as possible and that's why I want to see the improvement in spacecraft speed in the next release of evochron.

Cheers,
Vincent

[Edited on 2-3-2012 by Cheri50000]

Cheri50000 · Post by **Cheri50000** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:45 am

Hi, Maarschalk!

Did you see my post about improvements to the spacecraft's speed in the next release of evochron? Thanks!

Cheers,
Vincent

Scavenger4711 · Post by **Scavenger4711** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:42 pm

Speaking of speed and jump drives: I actually don't quite like the way the jump drive in Evochron Mercenary and Legends is working. I mean you can like jump "through" a whole planet. I prefered the jump drive as it is designed in Arvoch Alliance, where you ship simply increases speed to a maximum of 10K.
Okay, 10K for Mercenary would be a little slow, I know but perhaps it could be possible to increase the speed then to e.g. 100K or 150K.

For me, the jumpdrives in Arvoch Alliance seem to be the more "logical" ones. What do you guys think? Which points would speak for and against it?

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:16 pm

I do not ignore any posts, well relatively speaking that is!

I think some of you guys are missing the point or are ignoring the fact that the speedometer reading limit is 10k/s this does not mean you can not go faster then 10k as I already gave an example of that. Why introduce something that already can be done or make the experience worse by making travel 5 hours?

Just because your Cars speedometer has a marking for max 180 mph does not mean your Car can not go faster then that if it was pulled by a jet moving at 400knots, heck it would not stay on the ground long and its speedometer might reed closer to zero when airborne but you are still moving faster then what your speedometer is reading or capable of reading and I do not see the point of changing this in Evochron Mercenary.....

:P

[Edited on 2-3-2012 by Maarschalk]

Scavenger4711 · Post by **Scavenger4711** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:38 pm

From post: 128703, Topic: tid=8759, author=Maarschalk wrote:I think some of you guys are missing the point or are ignoring the fact that the speedometer reading limit is 10k/s this does not mean you can not go faster then 10k as I already gave an example of that. ...

I know, the speedometer says >10K which mean that it is more than 10K, so yeah you can go faster

. But with the current technology featured in Evochron this is barely possible and I think it would be really cool to to fly super-fast without any "jumps" in between which basically just make you skip a part of the way you were actually supposed to pass or fly through.
My personal concern or problem is just that jumping from one point to another isn't logical for me. (I somehow need to have a lot of things explained scientificly in a game, but I just don't get how the fulcrum drive is supposed to make your ship skip a certain distance ^^)
Also I think it would also make jumps more "difficult" because you'd actually have to get your ship into the direction you want to travel to before jumping. It then would require some "skill" and precalculating.

An alternative that I could bring in would be some kind of super-propulsion-system which replaces the fulcrum jump drive and allows the player to travel like in Arvoch Alliance (just a bit faster). In that way everyone can have what he/she wants.

[Edited on 3-2-2012 by Scavenger4711]

Dhuran · Post by **Dhuran** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:54 pm

E=mc^2 is just an objects mass energy (or rest energy). Basically how much energy would be produced if all the mass was spontaneously transformed into energy (like in some forms of nuclear decay). It is unrelated to the motion of the object.

If the object is in motion its total energy would be described as the rest energy plus the kinetic energy.

When your talking about propulsion, momentum is often used since it can be directly related to thrust through the total impulse provided by the propulsion system.

From relativity (I'm not going to derive anything here. . .), the true momentum of an object can be described as Momentum = Gamma * Mass * Velocity

Where Gamma is the Lorentz transformation factor (which also shows up in time dilation and length contraction equations).
Gamma = 1/sqrt(1-(Vel/C)^2)

The Lorentz factor is essentially equal to 1 for speeds much lower than the speed of light, therefore that momentum equation is true at an speed below the speed of light (and the classical momentum equation, Momentum = Mass*Velocity is still accurate at V << C)

But as you approach the speed of light, the Lorentz factor asymptotically increases in magnitude. So you're momentum will also increase in magnitude. The more momentum you have, the more impulse you need to increase that momentum. (Impulse is just change in momentum)

It's a good thing some physics are simplified in this game. . . The maneuvers you would have to make to dock with an orbiting space station while you are also in orbit about the same body are not intuitive. . . (Look up Clohessey-Wiltshire equations to see what I mean)