Fast Movement/Normal Space FTL

[Inverness]

I've been thinking awhile about what it might be like if an FTL drive was available that worked by allowing you to travel over time in normal space rather than from point to point instantly like the current implementation. I've played EVE before, and while I didn't really get into it for one reason or another, one of my favorite things about the game as far as aesthetics goes was how when you engaged warp drive, you could see planets zoom by you in an instant until they've shrunk to a pin-points of light. It was a very visceral experience that I don't get with point-to-point travel.

Since I'm rather new to Evochron, I don't really know how such a thing would affect gameplay, or if it would even be possible, or whether it has been discussed before, etc. There is that problem of what to do if something is in your path and you're going FTL. EVE just has you phase right through the object, but I think it would be better if you were knocked out of FTL when approaching a gravity field or an object.

Anyhow, I'm not suggesting a replacement of the current FTL system, but rather an alternative with different pros and cons.

[Edited on 12-1-2010 by Inverness]

[Atollski]

Hi Inverness and welcome!

That would be a great visual effect, maybe a bit more demanding on the computer but definitely worth it. Just warning you now, that FTL drive discussions seem to cause amazing debates.

Hopefully will see you on MP in Remula 1 soon!

[Edited on 1/12/2010 by Atollski]

[Inverness]

Hi Inverness and welcome!

That would be a great visual effect, maybe a bit more demanding on the computer but definitely worth it. Just warning you now, that FTL drive discussions seem to cause amazing debates.

Hopefully will see you on MP in Remula 1 soon!

[Edited on 1/12/2010 by Atollski]

Thanks. I do hope for an amazing debate.

I was thinking a bit more about how a normal-space drive might differ from the Fulcrum Drive if implemented. I think a good way to differentiate beyond the method itself might be long-distance travel. The current FTL takes one fuel unit per sector, so double that to two. This probably wouldn't bother someone much if they're taking short trips within a system (though I can only speak for my inexperienced self of course), but for going long distance between systems that means a lot more fuel usage. As an alternative, you would have the normal-space FTL drive, which would consume one unit of fuel per sector of travel at maximum speed. The travel would also be at a constant rate until you reach your destination, so no repeated jumps like with the Fulcrum Drive. This would have the limitation of not being able to just go through objects, which shouldn't really be a problem in deep space.

As for the speed of this normal-space drive, I think it should be adjustable using the number keys as with the normal thrusters. It seems sensible to make the distance traveled at full speed about the same as a person using a Mantis Drive with all power diverted to weapon energy, or perhaps a bit more. However, the normal-space drive would be twice as fuel efficient if following the previous suggestion. As for the fuel usage, as mentioned before, one unit per sector seems sensible enough, but I think slower speeds could be made to use proportionately less fuel. For example, setting the speed to ten percent would mean it would take ten times longer to get somewhere but take ten times less fuel. That might be useful if you're in deep space and low on fuel.

Anyhow, my main interest was really in the awesome visual effects of FTL travel, but I figured I could offer some thoughts about how an alternative FTL drive might fit into the game.

[mcmad]

talk about coincidence....
I was thinking about much the same thing a few weeks ago. The way I think it could work in game is along the lines of the "inertialess drive" of the Lensmen series of books by E.E 'doc' Smith. Basically the ship establishes a field that causes it to have no inertia. This means the slightest thrust and it instantly accelerates to a speed capped by the amount of interstellar particles it hits. [In the books special relativity was ignored so vast distances could be travelled.]
This means close into a system you naturally slow down because of solar wind, dust and debris. Between systems you are really moving and between galaxies you move even faster.
this could work well in a game because the max speed is set by engine power and density of particles. to set up the inertialess field would take a good lump of fuel (say 150) but to travel would take about 1 per sector, maybe less, this would be in balance with fuel costs for normal manoeuvring and traditional evochron jump drives.
I reckon a speed of about 2 sectors per second between systems, slowing to 1 sector every 5 seconds within 10 sectors of a system sun or planet (for simplicity).
This would make exploring a much more feasible option as your speed would give you a clue you were near something.


[Edited on 2-12-2010 by mcmad]

[Inverness]

talk about coincidence....
I was thinking about much the same thing a few weeks ago. The way I think it could work in game is along the lines of the "inertialess drive" of the Lensmen series of books by E.E 'doc' Smith. Basically the ship establishes a field that causes it to have no inertia. This means the slightest thrust and it instantly accelerates to a speed capped by the amount of interstellar particles it hits. [In the books special relativity was ignored so vast distances could be travelled.]
This means close into a system you naturally slow down because of solar wind, dust and debris. Between systems you are really moving and between galaxies you move even faster.
this could work well in a game because the max speed is set by engine power and density of particles. to set up the inertialess field would take a good lump of fuel (say 150) but to travel would take about 1 per sector, maybe less, this would be in balance with fuel costs for normal manoeuvring and traditional evochron jump drives.
I reckon a speed of about 2 sectors per second between systems, slowing to 1 sector every 5 seconds within 10 sectors of a system sun or planet (for simplicity).
This would make exploring a much more feasible option as your speed would give you a clue you were near something.


[Edited on 2-12-2010 by mcmad]

I don't really want a large initial fuel usage to go into FTL because sometimes I might just want to make short trips for the view. Also, course corrections would become quite costly if you have to use up so much fuel to go around a planet or something smaller. I think 100% weapon energy is a good enough cost just as with the Fulcrum Drive.

You can hit close to 10k with normal engines, objects do fly by pretty fast at that speed. Warning, you will use a lot of fuel getting up to that speed though.
The current FTL drive works well for getting to the action quick.
There is a lot of open, empty space out there, even near the numerous uncharted systems. The kind of drive you propose wouldn't give you much in the way of scenery during long trips. Personally, I'd rather cross 10 sectors in 10 seconds then take 10 minutes.

It wouldn't give you scenery during long trips, true, but as I said before, if you could customize the speed, you would have plenty of scenery for intra-system trips. But even then, I think its a better experience than repeated jumps on autopilot.

For long trips, going up to max speed would mean crossing sectors rapidly just as you do when traveling long distance with the autopilot activated. You wouldn't have to wait 10 minutes to cross 10 sectors.

[Edited on 12-2-2010 by Inverness]

[mcmad]

I take your point about lack of scenery in the empty spaces. Perhaps we could have more systems

The one thing that bugs me about jump drives is they dont use enough fuel. To create a wormhole takes enormous amounts of energy (about a whole sun according to theories expounded when i was at uni) so getting to jump 10 sectors for the same amount of fuel it takes to boost to 3 or 4 k in the game is a bit a a free lunch.

At 2 sectors a second you could cover 1000 sectors in 8 mins 20 seconds. it would cost 150 fuel plus whatever rate per sector we set . it makes it a bit more of a chore getting there i agree, but a fluid experience and a realistic fuel cost. But within a sector you could set your waypoint and get there in 5 seconds, get 4 sectors away in 20 seconds, all within the scope of running around a multi-planet system.

In reality i dont see this as part of evochron, but it would be fun if it was.

[Inverness]

I take your point about lack of scenery in the empty spaces. Perhaps we could have more systems

The one thing that bugs me about jump drives is they dont use enough fuel. To create a wormhole takes enormous amounts of energy (about a whole sun according to theories expounded when i was at uni) so getting to jump 10 sectors for the same amount of fuel it takes to boost to 3 or 4 k in the game is a bit a a free lunch.

At 2 sectors a second you could cover 1000 sectors in 8 mins 20 seconds. it would cost 150 fuel plus whatever rate per sector we set . it makes it a bit more of a chore getting there i agree, but a fluid experience and a realistic fuel cost. But within a sector you could set your waypoint and get there in 5 seconds, get 4 sectors away in 20 seconds, all within the scope of running around a multi-planet system.

In reality i dont see this as part of evochron, but it would be fun if it was.

I think it would be nice if you could see nearby stars from a greater distance, but that would probably make exploration too easy.

A change to the amount of fuel used by the Fulcrum Drive is something I considered before posting this topic. There would be an amount of fuel used based on the class of drive. It would basically be initial cost + distance cost = total cost. The distance cost would be 1 per sector, as normal, but the initial cost would be 1 for class 1 drives and 5 for class 5 drives. The initial cost would be the same no matter the distance traveled. A Mantis Drive, being special, would behave a bit differently. The fuel cost for it would be solely 2 units per sector travel. That would make it much cheaper to go short distance than with a class 5 Fulcrum Drive but cost 20 units to go the full 10 sectors.

The normal-space FTL would differentiate by having some more limitations in exchange for lower fuel cost. It would be much faster to travel between gates by jumping directly to them, but more expensive fuel-wise compared to normal-space travel which would take longer for traveling a single jump distance and the inability to travel straight through anything in between you and the target.

I think one sector per second is a bit more reasonable than two. And as I mentioned before, I wouldn't like having to use 150 fuel units just to get going.

I don't think its a good idea to shake things up too much by creating a dramatic difference in fuel cost, which is why I didn't mention this in my first post.

[Edited on 12-2-2010 by Inverness]

[Marvin]

I wouldn't like having to use 150 fuel units just to get going.

Then you probably wouldn't want a realistic FTL. As Eclipse said, 10k gives you the feeling of going faster than light (try it ... accelerate to 10k and see if it takes about 8 seconds to get from Sapphire to Sapphire's sun).

[Inverness]

I wouldn't like having to use 150 fuel units just to get going.

Then you probably wouldn't want a realistic FTL. As Eclipse said, 10k gives you the feeling of going faster than light (try it ... accelerate to 10k and see if it takes about 8 seconds to get from Sapphire to Sapphire's sun).

I'm more concerned about aesthetics than realism in this case. A mix of aesthetics and gameplay value based on the current standards.

Though, if this was about realism I don't think FTL would use thruster fuel to power itself (assuming it is thruster fuel and not some sort of reactor fuel). Instead I think FTL of either type should require some sort of charge-up sequence and then happen instantly rather than having your ship accelerate to over 10k. The charge would depend on the distance you're going to travel with a Fulcrum Drive.

But anyhow, I'd rather not have a dramatic change to fuel use for FTL.

[DaveK]

Hi

Interesting ideas - I'm enjoying the thread!

However, whatever the new drive is, it isn't FTL (Faster Than Light). I mention this because the community values the "realistic" physics of the Evoverse - I predict that the orbiting thread from XB7 will run and run

Relativity shows that when a mass, say a ship, accelerates its mass increases, its length (along the direction of movement) appears to an outside observer to decrease and a clock in the ship appears to run more slowly to an outside observer

As velocity approaches the speed of light the mass of the object approaches infinite. Newton showed that the force required to accelerate a mass is equal to its mass times the acceleration (F=ma). As a result the force needed to accelerate a mass approaches infinite as the mass approaches infinite. At the speed of light the mass is infinite and hence the force required to accelerate the mass is infinite and hence the SoL is the max speed you can get (even then you can only approach it - not reach it) - speed cameras are not needed in space

That's why FTL travel in real physics is via wormholes which form shortcuts across space time. Other SciFi writers have created witch space, spacefolding (aka space compression) drives (the idea is to bring two points in space closer together in some way so that you can travel between them quickly without having to "actually" travel faster than light), tachyon drives (tachyons are theoretical particles that can only move faster than the SoL).

The alternatives are generation ships (original Elite and several Sci Fi novels) and stasis modules for the crew (e.g. in Alien)

However, there is no reason not to invent a drive that is more efficient than the normal rocket reaction drive. For game play it could be set (like a ramjet) not to work below a certain velocity. Above that velocity it might collect hydrogen fuel (via an electromagnetic "scoop" and allow accelerations to significant proportions of the SoL.

A thing to remember though is that after whizzing along at your chosen velocity for a while, you will have to slow down again (turn round or reverse thrust) and then decellerate for as long as you accelerated. It also means no sight-seeing stops along the way because there is no just dropping out of hyperdrive!

An answer to this need for long winded acceleration and decelleration is inertial dampers so that accelerations and decellerations can be very high - How could this work? - as a Star Trek writer answered when asked how the Heisenberg Compensators in the transporter system work - "very well!"

Has anyone worked out how long it would take to cross a sector at, say, 0.5c. How long would it take to get from Sirius to Sol in real time? - it's a couple of hours at the moment

This engine technology would be rare and expensive - great reasons to explore and a money sink!

[Dormin]

Oh great one more reason to ask for one more slot or 2. As it is 8 don't cut it for me. I constantly have to put stuff in stations to retro fit my ship according to the mission I am on.

And the experimental drive sux 10 units of fuel so I am assuming that's 10 sectors.

[Inverness]

I suppose it would be possible for Vice to create another experimental drive that operates similar to a Fulcrum jump drive but maintains a small singularity in front the ship for the duration of travel.

Such a drive could be expected to consume fuel at the same one unit per sector traveled, drop energy reserves down to zero, and possibly have an impact on shields and hull (due to protecting the ship integrity at prolonged extreme speeds); thus it would still be necessary for the player to monitor ship health else their ship destruct in transit. Using this type of drive would also require some mechanism of deactivation when close to an object in space (planet, moon, asteroids) and when fuel reaches a critical level (maybe 20 units to allow for stopping the ship at a fuel processor). [Fuel processors could also be modified so that ships don't need the zero velocity to work.]

The event horizon for such a drive could be much smaller (about the size of the gunsight), since the ship does not have to pass through it, and might only obscure a relatively small area directly ahead of the ship which would allow for a more scenic view of deep space travel.

The player would have to choose between the regular 'jump' drive and the new 'exploration' drive, as they would be incompatible.

[Edited on 12-2-2010 by Eclipse]

I really like this idea! Having a singularity pulling your ship across space is a very interesting idea as to how FTL could be achieved in relatively (:D) normal space. The computer would be configured to cut it off for anything large. Though, I don't think there needs to be any impact on your hull or shields, the singularity would take care of any small particles in your path, and the computer would be configured to stop if it detects anything larger. It would make it appear similar in functionality and visual effect as the Fulcrum Drive.

As I mentioned before, I'd like the option of choosing the speed I travel at while this drive is in use using the number keys. Your speed would also affect your fuel usage, which is the result of minor high-precision course corrections/stabilization that become more necessary the faster you go. So at full speed you'll use 1 unit of fuel per sector for stabilization, but at 50% speed you'll use 50% of the fuel to travel the same distance in twice the time.

However, I don't think they should be incompatible. As I mentioned before, I suggested they have different pros and cons so you could choose one or the other or both if you have the equipment slots. The Fulcrum Drive is fine for anybody travelling locally in systems and through gates to others. But anyone that wants to explore long distance or take a trip to Sol would want this new drive. If both are installed there could simply be a button for switching between the two drives. This new drive would require a separate slot alongside your Fulcrum/Mantis Drive.

[Edited on 12-2-2010 by Inverness]

[Dormin]

Reminds me of the push me pull you drive or something of that nature. People come up with some novel ideas.

[TGS]

One thing I have always thought about and wanted in a game but would probably never be implemented for the shear fact that it would be very complicated to implement would be some sort of "hyperspace" or "subspace" depending on the media you follow.

Essentially what you'd do is rather than traverse space itself you would "jump" into a more compressed version of the universe we already have. So what you see as a 10 sectors that the mantis jumps now would actually appear to be one sector in this medium. And instead of going across these sectors slowly you'd do it much faster. It would have to have a few key limitations. First off you wouldn't be able to do it near celestial bodies as in stars/planets as they would be much MUCH larger in this subspace/hyperspace. Also you wouldn't be able to change direction or even your actual speed. So you'd have to be very careful not to fly into anything (Though you'd have a nav computer that would calculate that for you) All you could really do is set your destination... hit jump then you'd jump through a portal or simply appear to burst as in star trek/star wars. You'd be going MUCH faster so if you were doing that appeared speed in normal space you wouldn't see anything because you'd simply pass them far too quickly. But the visual benefit would be that due to planets/stars being much larger you would be able to see them much easier. While you can't change your direction or anything you can stop/pull yourself out.

[Inverness]

One thing I have always thought about and wanted in a game but would probably never be implemented for the shear fact that it would be very complicated to implement would be some sort of "hyperspace" or "subspace" depending on the media you follow.

Essentially what you'd do is rather than traverse space itself you would "jump" into a more compressed version of the universe we already have. So what you see as a 10 sectors that the mantis jumps now would actually appear to be one sector in this medium. And instead of going across these sectors slowly you'd do it much faster. It would have to have a few key limitations. First off you wouldn't be able to do it near celestial bodies as in stars/planets as they would be much MUCH larger in this subspace/hyperspace. Also you wouldn't be able to change direction or even your actual speed. So you'd have to be very careful not to fly into anything (Though you'd have a nav computer that would calculate that for you) All you could really do is set your destination... hit jump then you'd jump through a portal or simply appear to burst as in star trek/star wars. You'd be going MUCH faster so if you were doing that appeared speed in normal space you wouldn't see anything because you'd simply pass them far too quickly. But the visual benefit would be that due to planets/stars being much larger you would be able to see them much easier. While you can't change your direction or anything you can stop/pull yourself out.

That makes me think of slipspace from Halo. Though in that case you're not stuck on a single heading and you can fly around in slip space in any direction you want I believe. The thought is interesting to me since you would have a more compressed universe in slipspace, you might see shadows of things in normal space, and perhaps there might be things hidden in slipspace for you to find if you're vigilant? It might be implemented as an experimental version of the Fulcrum Drive where instead of emerging at another point immediately you stay in this alternate space until you decide to leave. I imagine this space would be something like the fluid space from Star Trek as far as looks go. Pea soup basically.

Heh, I think I like this idea more than my other one just because it presents an opportunity for a strange new universe.

[TGS]

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Though fluid space in star trek was actually a different dimension all together and therefore had no direct ties to our universe. The more accurate analogy would be hyperspace ala star wars. There were a few scenes in the updated versions where you actually saw them in hyperspace and saw the backdrop.

If you've ever played the Freespace series their version "SubSpace" had a few missions where you actually played IN it.

But yeah ideally the hyperspace/subspace concept would basically take Evochron from a very large massive universe to something that technically you could fly from star system to star system in 5-10 minutes. And given the gravitational effect of celestial bodies and even perhaps stations if Vice wanted to go that far. You would see shadows of things against the otherwise very bright backdrop.

Now combat wouldn't really be allowed in this alternate space because it would be impossible to do without extra tech and it would actually defeat the purpose. But that would be the perfect way to implement interdiction and gravity well generators ala star wars.

Essentially someone would drop a gravity well deployable or enable a device on their ship which would require a MASSIVE power source and it would project a very large shadow bubble in hyper/sub space similar to the ones celestial objects project. And if anyone were to hit one or be in one they simply wouldn't be able to jump and thus would be trapped. (Which would work for both players and npc's). As for the reasoning that you can't fly around freely in hyperspace... you have to realize the theory behind how it would work would make it nearly impossible to move your ship without ripping it apart. Which is why in the star wars universe technically a ship can fly into a gravity bubble without being pulled out of hyperspace however if they stay in it for any length of time their ship will be ripped apart from the force of movement.

Now that I've laid all this down I'm starting to think perhaps this might be best for a different game entirely. Assuming Vice would even want to design another game universe that isn't Evochron/Starwraith.

One thing I have always thought about and wanted in a game but would probably never be implemented for the shear fact that it would be very complicated to implement would be some sort of "hyperspace" or "subspace" depending on the media you follow.

Essentially what you'd do is rather than traverse space itself you would "jump" into a more compressed version of the universe we already have. So what you see as a 10 sectors that the mantis jumps now would actually appear to be one sector in this medium. And instead of going across these sectors slowly you'd do it much faster. It would have to have a few key limitations. First off you wouldn't be able to do it near celestial bodies as in stars/planets as they would be much MUCH larger in this subspace/hyperspace. Also you wouldn't be able to change direction or even your actual speed. So you'd have to be very careful not to fly into anything (Though you'd have a nav computer that would calculate that for you) All you could really do is set your destination... hit jump then you'd jump through a portal or simply appear to burst as in star trek/star wars. You'd be going MUCH faster so if you were doing that appeared speed in normal space you wouldn't see anything because you'd simply pass them far too quickly. But the visual benefit would be that due to planets/stars being much larger you would be able to see them much easier. While you can't change your direction or anything you can stop/pull yourself out.

That makes me think of slipspace from Halo. Though in that case you're not stuck on a single heading and you can fly around in slip space in any direction you want I believe. The thought is interesting to me since you would have a more compressed universe in slipspace, you might see shadows of things in normal space, and perhaps there might be things hidden in slipspace for you to find if you're vigilant? It might be implemented as an experimental version of the Fulcrum Drive where instead of emerging at another point immediately you stay in this alternate space until you decide to leave. I imagine this space would be something like the fluid space from Star Trek as far as looks go. Pea soup basically.

Heh, I think I like this idea more than my other one just because it presents an opportunity for a strange new universe.

[Maarschalk]

LOL, I won't get started in this thread, otherwise I will get every one relatively lost in relativity....relatively speaking ofcourse.....:P:P:P:P.........cool thread thou.......

[Inverness]

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Though fluid space in star trek was actually a different dimension all together and therefore had no direct ties to our universe. The more accurate analogy would be hyperspace ala star wars. There were a few scenes in the updated versions where you actually saw them in hyperspace and saw the backdrop.

If you've ever played the Freespace series their version "SubSpace" had a few missions where you actually played IN it.

But yeah ideally the hyperspace/subspace concept would basically take Evochron from a very large massive universe to something that technically you could fly from star system to star system in 5-10 minutes. And given the gravitational effect of celestial bodies and even perhaps stations if Vice wanted to go that far. You would see shadows of things against the otherwise very bright backdrop.

Now combat wouldn't really be allowed in this alternate space because it would be impossible to do without extra tech and it would actually defeat the purpose. But that would be the perfect way to implement interdiction and gravity well generators ala star wars.

Essentially someone would drop a gravity well deployable or enable a device on their ship which would require a MASSIVE power source and it would project a very large shadow bubble in hyper/sub space similar to the ones celestial objects project. And if anyone were to hit one or be in one they simply wouldn't be able to jump and thus would be trapped. (Which would work for both players and npc's). As for the reasoning that you can't fly around freely in hyperspace... you have to realize the theory behind how it would work would make it nearly impossible to move your ship without ripping it apart. Which is why in the star wars universe technically a ship can fly into a gravity bubble without being pulled out of hyperspace however if they stay in it for any length of time their ship will be ripped apart from the force of movement.

Now that I've laid all this down I'm starting to think perhaps this might be best for a different game entirely. Assuming Vice would even want to design another game universe that isn't Evochron/Starwraith.

When I referred to Star Trek I was referring purely to the visual effect of being in the alternate space. I would expect some sort of dark ambient colors in different regions such as when you're in a nebula except not so bright of course.


Well, I've been thinking about this a bit more and revising this idea and how it could fit into Evochron without causing a lot of changes, so here is a summary of that:

First, an alternate space exists where 10 units of distance in normal space equals 1 unit of distance in the alternate space. This means traveling a sector in alternate space means 10 sectors in normal space.

Secondly, entering this alternate space would be done using a special version of the Mantis drive that has a switch. That switch would specify whether your jump destination is in normal space or the alternate space. This means if you plot a jump to your currect position you would exit in the corresponding position in the alternate space if that was your destination. And if you plotted a jump 10 sectors away, you would exit one sector from your corresponding position in the alternate space. Basically some scientist discovered that if he fiddled with something in the drive, he could make a ship exit the jump in this alternate space instead of normal space.

Thirdly, as a result of the first two points, jumps in the alternate space (which is possible) would only have a tenth of the distance that you'd get in normal space.

Fourthly, this alternate space has strange ambient background radiation. This gives it a dim background glow of different colors depending on what region you're in rather than the typical blackness of normal space. I imagine the alternate space around some systems being dark purple in color while it is blue or red in some other areas. This ambient radiation also has an impact on your ship, a constant drain on the shields that would slow their recharge rate greatly, but not enough that they would actively drain even if all energy was diverted toward your weapons. This ambient radiation would also have the effect of lowering all of your weapon ranges making combat much more difficult and deadly up close considering the effect on your shield recharge rate.

Finally, I think the impact of objects in normal space on the alternate space should be minimal at best. I think this alternate space might be an opportunity to introduce some new phenomena that isn't seen/possible in normal space. I'm also thinking it might be useful if there was a way to gain enough speed in the alternate space so that traveling through it under high inertia would get you slightly further and with less fuel than using the Mantis Drive in normal space.

Edit: I made a few minor corrections now that I'm more awake.

Another little point I considered. I think jumping from normal space to alternate space or vice versa should do a set amount of damage to the ship. This means if your shields are strong enough it can absorb the effect, but in a weaker ship you might end up doing a significant amount of hull damage. Basically, that would mean repeated jumps to and from normal space would destroy your ship, or jumping to alternate space if you have a significant amount of damage would also be dangerous.

[Edited on 12-5-2010 by Inverness]

[Marvin]

It's amazing how much speculation this game generates.

[Sinbad]

Fascinating thread!

[Inverness]

Thanks! Some thoughts on the alternate space idea I elaborated on would be appreciated. Is this just a pipe dream?

[Marvin]

Is this just a pipe dream?

Would that be the kind of pipe you smoke or the kind that's similar to tubes?

[Inverness]

Is this just a pipe dream?

Would that be the kind of pipe you smoke or the kind that's similar to tubes?

"A pipe dream is a fantastic hope or plan that is generally regarded as being nearly impossible to achieve, originating in the 19th century as an allusion to the dreams experienced by smokers of opium pipes."

[Marvin]

Ahhhh ... so it's the kind of pipe you smoke. Very good. Soooo ... pipe dreams cause cancer, I guess.

[DaveK]

But if you're smoking opium, you probably don't care :P