Wow... (Possible Spoilers)

[Trent]

I've been playing a week or so now, in the evenings. After doing a lot of missions, mining, and exploring some systems, I decided to try to make a run to Sol. Had a Fulcrum C5, maxed out my fuel capacity to 4000, and went.

I flew inertial the entire way, not using autopilot. Set my nav point manually from my starting point in Alpha Centauri, pointed my ship as precisely as I could at the nav pointer at 0 velocity. Then I pinned down the ALT+F2 keys.....

Cooked lunch...

Ate lunch...

Read a book...

The trip took 3 hours and required about 2600 fuel. Took about 550 jumps, and only 3 course corrections were made towards the end of the trip.

Some observations along the way.

At 78, -4038, system changed from AC to "Pluto".

Between -594, -4644 and -634, -4662 the system name alternated from Pluto to Mars and back again.

I'd conjecture the Pluto 'system' (which I conjecture is a "band" around the Mars system) is about 600 sectors wide. If it stretches around Sol, it would take a loooong time to search it.

Anyway I'm off to explore, now that I finally got here.

[BraveHart]

"Glad you had a Good trip Trent"

[Trent]

After checking around the system for awhile.... I think I'll be leaving in a much better equipped ship.

[Ravenfeeder]

Aye, buy a Mantis drive for a start!

[Aures]

I don't think the Pluto system stretches all the way around Sol. From what I can tell the game uses some algorithm to assign each sector to a system when you enter it. It has some way of roughly deciding what the closest system is and it uses that. You seem to have found a border between Mars and Pluto. I think that if you had approached Sol from a different angle you could have seen more Mars and skipped Pluto..

If you had wanted to you could have tried sticking to the border between Mars and Pluto that you found and followed that. Kind of pointless when Sol is on the quadrant map though.

The thing you really determined is that there are no hidden systems with names in a lnnns format between Alpha Centauri and Sol for some distance either side of the path you took. So by paying attention rather than leaving the autopilot to get on with it you have eliminated a large swath of space from having any hidden systems. Good for you.

If you want try heading south from Sol, you will probably stay in the Sol system for a ridiculous distance and be able to determine if there is anything down there. I haven't tried that direction off the quadrant map but I have been nearly 5000 sectors out in a different direction. My sector name stayed the same as the system I started from the entire way. Since I was nearly 5000 sectors from that system I can be pretty sure there weren't any systems significantly closer to my final position than that.

If you want to actually find hidden systems head into the interior of one of the 4 main rings of known systems. Glad you enjoyed your trip, not many people have the stamina to go to Sol without using autopilot, especially using a C5. Exploring for hidden systems might be something you would enjoy.

[Maarschalk]

Originally posted by Trent
After checking around the system for awhile.... I think I'll be leaving in a much better equipped ship.

LOL...Indeed....Did you get a Mantis Drive, Stealth Generator, Deployers.....etc....etc.....etc....??:P:P:P:P:P

[Trent]

None for sale here in Sol... although there's some neat goods on the market, and I'm making good use of the mining beams I found. Sold all my gear and weapons (and downgraded my ship) to buy a diamond one first... now I'm up to the Platinum mining beam... and a fully decked out Starmaster with class 15 cannon, and a fresh anti-missile system. Just about ready to pin the keys down again and head out of this joint.

One thing though.

It bugged me that I started getting "Pluto" for a system name about half way to Sol on the way from Alpha Centauri - in fact, I first saw the system name 'Pluto' more than *1000* sectors out from Sol. Then, later it changed to Mars... After a course correction it changed back to Pluto for awhile... then back to Mars... etc. My brain started to get tickled a little but I let it rest for awhile.

Been mining all day - so I've had plenty of time to think about this. The way I see it, there's at least 10,000 sectors in each of three dimensions in the game (+/- 5000 in each of three axis from point of origin). That means there's over 1,000,000,000,000 (one TRILLION) sectors to explore in the game.

Staggering, really.

Being a computer programmer by trade... I figure there's an algorithm behind how "systems" are named - no way Vice is going to store a trillion values somewhere for system names sector by sector.

While exploring in Sol I noticed that as I jump close to various planets, the "system" name in Navigation changed to the nearest planet name (with the exception of Jupiter, which shows as system Venus.. while Uranus and Saturn which show as Earth.. no idea why). Delving further, I noticed, the system name changes half-way between those named bodies - this line can be followed, sector, by sector, extending out from them until you get close to a new body. Basically, from the midway point, here's a "line" extending from each named system. Whatever planet I'm closest to, drives what the "system" is named on the nav map.

So I have an unknown body out there (Pluto), a couple of Known Bodies, and time to experiment with how to find the unknown body based on some points I find where the system name changes.

Known bodies:

Earth (-1052, 0, -5052)
Venus (-1049, 0, -5051)

Now moving out a bit, the Earth-Venus line can be followed on a diagonal line extending "south-south-east" (for a lack of a better term). Since Venus one sector "higher" than Earth, it introduces a slight skew as you move south but it's easy to follow.

Following the Venus-Earth line down I find a trinary convergence point with Pluto here:

-1044, -5070 Venus "owns"
-1045, -5071 Earth "owns"
-1044, -5071 Pluto "owns"

So I found a point where "Pluto" becomes closer to me than Earth and Venus.

There's a similar Venus-Mars line that forms like the Venus-Earth line did. I follow this Venus-Mars border east until I find a similar point of juncture between Venus, Mars, and Pluto here:

-1032, -5055 Mars "owns"
-1033, -5056 Venus "owns"
-1032, -5056 Pluto "owns"

So now I have the juncture of Mars-Venus-Pluto systems.

Since both of my plots were made with Venus in common, I head back to Venus (-1049, -5051). I get as close to the center of the system as I can without entering the Venus atmosphere, come to a stop, and set my Nav marker my first juncture I found - and get a heading of 164. I set my NAV system marker to the second point of juncture I found, and get a bearing of 110 (ish).

Midpoint between these is 137. Stationary, I move my ship to point that direction (making sure I'm level and at zero climb).

First jump, just past the asteroids. Second jump, past Jupiter. Third jump, getting out there. Fourth jump, middle of nowhere. Fifth jump, still middle of nowhere.

Sixth jump. I find Pluto at -1025, 0, -5070.

The NAV Computer screws up your trajectory quite a bit so for long-distance system hunting you WILL need to make course corrections. On the first jump plot watch the degrees of difference between your intended bearing vs. your plotted bearing so you know how far off the system throws you.

If it wouldn't jump to "same point" in the "furthest possible system" you'd land pretty damn close to the body that the system is named off of. As it is, it takes a bit of work to stay on course over time, and this system isn't quite perfect.

Anyway enjoy system hunting!

[Maarschalk]

Nicely done trent......

[Aures]

Thanks Trent that was great. So the Sol system works pretty much like the generic hidden system does as I explaned in the Pinpointing a hidden system thread. Great to have independent confirmation that the borders do always behave like that.

You can use that method of finding and following borders to make a bee line for hidden systems. Sounds like it is something you might get a kick out of.

I think that Jupiter, Saturn and Uranus might not have their own system designations. That is why they show up as whatever is closer (according to the algorithm) whether that is Venus or Earth.

Generally you should expect the system name to change about half way between the two objects that are giving the different system names. That is how the game decides where to put the border in the first place.

[Trent]

One other thing to mention, after the fourth jump, the system name changed to Pluto, so I knew I'd passed the halfway mark. I did a little scouting around this area and the actual border of Pluto began at -1037, -5063. Pluto is actually 7 jumps out ( first shows on the nav screen at 6 jumps).

Anyway, that tidbit (midpoint on the proper trajectory) can be used to know when you're "close", if the body doesn't show up on the NAV system. That way when you get 2x the midpoint, on long jumps where the max jump feature of the NAV computer screws your trajectory, you know what way to go hunting.

Beginning the long trek back to gated space so I can play around with this technique some more, over some longer ranges.

[Trent]

PS on the way to SOL I didn't use autopilot because it wastes a little fuel each jump. From Alpha Centauri it's a LOOONG friggin haul - nearly 2x longer than from Sirius, which is where I'm heading next. If I had used Autopilot I would have eventually gotten stranded. Hence the wedge-down-the-key technique....

The way back is going to be autopilot, but I'm going to keep an eye out for system-changes and plot the points for future reference. You need two points, and a centerpoint to draw bearings from, to use the above technique, so whatever I may find I'll log - might come in handy later.

[Trent]

[removed dupe post]

[Edited on 10-17-2010 by Trent]

[Aures]

With Sol you are heading in a pretty straight line to it so it is simple. If you don't know where the object is in the system you are looking for you don't know that you are heading in the right direction, just that you are about as far from it as you are from the object in the neighbouring system.

I would be careful about trying to project where to go based on a small stretch of border (especially if you have only sampled it at a couple of widely spaced points). The algorithm seems to be fairly heuristic so the border can wiggle back and forth and it is hard to get an accurate picture of what it is doing. For really large systems like Lost Rucker the border is kind of jumbled and foamy near the edges.

[Trent]

I need a verification on my theory.. the only problem is the closest system to where I'm at is a long way away now. Got another 250 jumps before I'm back in gated space. Currently got a knife and a pair of pliers propped up on my flight sim computer to pin down Alt and F2. With +5 Weapon energy to recharge the jump drive quicker, it's 15 seconds from one jump to the next. 250/4 jumps per minute = just over an hour left to go.

Shapes of named 'systems' are going to be irregular, circular masses. Imagine four points of food coloring dripping at the same rate on to a flat surface, that can't intermingle. Each will spread out equally until they meet each other. When they meet each other, they stop, and don't mix. That's your system borders. Three have to be known, one unknown. From the borders of the three known systems, you can always find "center of mass" in the fourth.

You could probably do it with two adjacent known systems that border a third unknown, but it'd be a touch harder on the mathematics because you'd only get one of two bearings you need. The second bearing would need to be figured as a tangent to the first - a bit harder for most people to do (as most haven't used sign & cosign since high school... which for many of us was a long time ago!)

The procedure I outlined above is pretty straight forward, involves no math, and can be done without leaving the game or grabbing a calculator.

I'll sum it up a bit tidier here:

To start with, you need three known adjacent systems, with known fixed bodies (planets / stars), that border on a fourth system with an unknown center. Ideally you'd need a center system, and two adjoining systems, each touching the unknown. You have to find two points of intersection between pairs of the systems (the fourth being the unknown), to find the central body. The point where systems A & B meet D, and where B & C meet D, gives you your vectors. You go back to planet/star B, plot the two bearings, center them, and fly. When the system name changes to that of the unknown system, you've crossed the half way point through the route.

Consider Pluto, Mars, Earth from Sol. They sort of fan out from each other. The planets are all relatively close to the borders, because the nearest systems are SOOO far off in the other direction. Pluto, for instance, stretches out over a thousand sectors before the half way point to Alpha Centauri. It'd take you years (literally) on autopilot to find the planet, if you didn't know where to look. Likewise, Mercury fans out towards Sirius.

System borders aren't straight lines, anywhere, period - every single system border is a curve. Which is why you see a little "fuzz" - pixellation, if you will - since it's not a true straight line but one that zigs and zags back to conform with blocks of sectors.

Anyway if have a known central point, and a couple of points of intersection where three systems coincide, it's possible to find the other.

Tomorrow I'll do a little exploring and see if this theory holds up. If it does, it means I'm on the right track to figuring out the algorithm. Then I can write a bit of software that will allow me to put in more "samples" and assist in locating some of the harder systems (something a little more accurate than the crude "point it here" thing that I outlined above).

[Knight Rider]

I just left Sol, searched all over for the Mantis and Stealth Generator, Couldn't find either one. Has anyone found them yet?

[Trent]

I've seen Stealth generators pop up from time to time, since I hit Rucker, Pearl, and Alpha Centauri. Saw them again in Sol. I haven't seen a Mantis yet. I keep an eye out for "new equipment is now available". The game seems to unlock better gear with time / money or something, dunno. Also seems to depend a great deal on the system your in, Sol gave me much better gear choices than ANY other system I'd been in up to that point.

Also one thing I noticed is even within the same system, two stations were giving widely varying prices (to the point of a million or more credits) on some gear like the Excaliber. Not sure what the deal is with that either - but when I buy expensive gear form now on I'm gonna do a little "shopping around"!

My guess is there's a combination of factors that play in to what equipment is available.. rank, system, rating, etc, and some other factors in to what it costs.

[Trent]

Small update.. Mercury changed to Sirius B at the half-way point, near -1675, -4375. Starting to really think I'm on to something here.


[Edited on 10-17-2010 by Trent]

[Aures]

Yeah, except your theory doesn't really take into account that the average hidden system is a sort of flower petal shaped collection of systems. If you know two or three nearby hidden systems you actually have a whole stack of systems with borders to systems next door. You can't know for sure two different lnnns are part of the same hidden system until you have found it.

I too was initially very excited when I discovered the half way system change thing. But I have found in most circumstances it is quicker to follow the border than speculate about the direction of the system. I hope you can work out a more efficient method, maybe once it is developed we can race from a hidden system to see who can find the one next door the fastest.

[L_B_P]

Did the same then I first startet to explorer. Flew all the way to SOL, then Orion. Went to Pearl and flew to lost Rucker. Then it was easy to find the gate back and mark it on map.

Atm im flew all the way to Vonari and explore the hidden stations, next plan is to fly to wolfzone and Riftspace.

My only problem in Vonari is to find back to normal system

[Edited on 10-17-2010 by L_B_P]

[Edited on 10-17-2010 by L_B_P]

[Aures]

All you need to get back quickly from Vonari to the main systems is a repair system and guts. A tractor beam helps as well.