Exploration Poll

[reaper2040]

There is a lot of discussion about how exploration and locating hidden systems/items is handled in the game and what options there are, or should be, available.

What do you think?

[Marvin]

I think you should learn to mod.

[reaper2040]

I think you should learn to mod.

Would you mind elaborating a bit?

[Edited on 10-15-2010 by reaper2040]

[Marvin]

Nothing that isn't already in the game "should" be available. Unless, of course, it's something listed in the FAQ. Otherwise, I don't see any misrepresentation. Ergo, there is nothing else Vice "should" add.

[reaper2040]

I don't see any misrepresentation

I don't see any misrepresentation either Marvin and I'm really not sure how you managed to read that into my post.

As far as what "should" included, that is obviously entirely up to Vice; however, it seems to me that Vice pays attention to what everyone thinks and very often makes changes or adds features as a result of our feedback. I have seen great ideas presented for Legends that Vice applied to that game and Mercenary seems to incorporate many of the big ideas previously discussed in the Legends and Renegades forums.

You are passionate about how you want to see this series develop (or not develop?). That is fine, we all have and are entitled to our opinions, that is precisely why I started this poll: to get a feel for what the community at large may want see in the future.

[Aures]

Sorry I couldn't vote, I have about equal sympathy for all four options.

[BraveHart]

"I like it the way it is...I know there are other hidden worlds and systems and it feels great when I find one on my own...if I feel myself getting a bit frustrated looking for hidden systems I just take a break and do some missions or contracts...then it's back to the search! and in Mercenary you can build yourself a station to get fuel...that I like"

[Marvin]

Originally posted by reaper2040

I don't see any misrepresentation either Marvin and I'm really not sure how you managed to read that into my post.

To say that some option should be available implies that the option was promised but not delivered. Which is pretty much the definition of misrepresentation. And, IMHO, this game has already delivered above and beyond what was promised.

[kutte128]

would it possible and usefull to spread rumors (maybe for cash) ?

like the text in Pearl with the hidden military installaion (don't remember the right terms).

just rare,random,vague rumors without coords

puts even a little more life and "realism" to the game.

of course this is no demand , just an idea

[Crashdown]

Haven't really done much exploration for hidden stuff yet, but some vague rumours/hints would probably compel me to search a bit more. I also feel like 'discovered' locations should appear on your nav map.
Can't say I'm bothered by how it is now, but that's the direction I'd like to see it go.

[TGS]

I wasn't going to post but basically in response to this... many people I have noticed have been griping on the exploration part of this game. Primarily in the sense that exploration is lacking. Maybe the die hard fans like it the way it is but I can comfortably say as someone who has been a gamer for 15+ years and has played most of the greats.


The reason I bring this up is most games do not give you a vast game world/universe, then dot "hidden things" and say "Go explore" without actually giving you the tools to do it. And if you tell me "But you have the tools you can fly around in a search pattern and fly sector by sector to find things" I will tell you that you are insane. That isn't the tool to do it. That's merely the element of travel built into the game. Stumbling upon a hidden planet/system/object would be just that. Stumbling upon it.

One of the most awesome things about Evochron is the size and scope. One of the things that make the size and scope less daunting is the Fulcrum drive. Now that's great except that for the method of exploring I think the fulcrum drive actually does more harm than good because as I have said in previous posts with the max fulcrum drive or heck even the C5 version you can easily jump "over" hidden objects. And sure there are techniques to pin down and find the things you want but they are techniques that are still simply extensions of travel. This isn't enough. If you give players a massive game world there are a few things you need to give them to make it work. Tools to get around and tools to navigate around. IE find things. There is no deep space scanner. There is device, ship or crew that will direct you to hidden objects without you being pretty close and pretty mindful.

I don't think anyone is asking for a device that gives them instant access to everything right at their fingertips. But a device that aids in exploration would be nothing but beneficial to this game. In fact the only people I can see not wanting such a device or feature are the die hard's who don't want it to come remotely easy because it wasn't for them or because of other selfish reasons.

I know the reason I love this game is the size of its universe. Now in EL the size and scope was somewhat static. All the object's in the game were pretty much set in stone and that was it. Now with player constructed stations that dramatically expands the options. But we still don't have a good way of finding things out in the vast void of space.

Also in my closing note one thing I have noticed that has kind of worried me is that in reality there might be a lot less out there than people realize. Newbies and new players are given these nice visions of a massive universe with tons of secret treats waiting to be discovered but are there really? And if there are... we should definitely have tools to find them. Even if its something akin to the sensor/probe but only picks up celestial object's and since obviously the map doesn't zoom out any further than the 15x15x15 it should report in chat if any celestial objects are detected within say 500 sectors.

Originally posted by Marvin

Originally posted by reaper2040

I don't see any misrepresentation either Marvin and I'm really not sure how you managed to read that into my post.

To say that some option should be available implies that the option was promised but not delivered. Which is pretty much the definition of misrepresentation. And, IMHO, this game has already delivered above and beyond what was promised.

[Von Paulus]

TGS, you are absolutely right. Every thing you say, it makes sense, and in spite of being a rookie Ive already sense all that.
IMHO, as an old computer/video gamer, that's an area that Vice need really to workout. That will appeal the casual player.
This game needs more SP content.

[Aesir Rising]

I agree with TGS on critical points of his post. Primarily, the "tools" he writes of are in-line with what I'm hoping for, and recently posted about: getting a variety of probes, satellites, and scanners that turn exploration and surveying into a fun and engaging part of the game.

What I'm hoping for introduces a new career path for pilots, codifying exploration and into sets of functions that include various roles, such as:

astro-survey (where are the planets, moons, nebulae, astreroids, stars?)
geo-survey (what can we mine or tractor from a given body, where are the cities and underground entrances, bodies of water and other interesting features?)
surveillance (where are the bad guys? how many are there? what ship types?)

The above assumes new ship equipment and consumables, data displays incorporated into the existing cockpit MFDs, and a dozen other things I'm not yet completely thought through.

Inspiration for some of the implementation ideas come from ideas (that only partly materialized) in Eve Online and X3 scripts.

For purposes of the poll topic question and response, I have to say that this falls under "major changes", so that's my vote. That response is an over-simplification though. The implementation plan for such change doesn't need to happen all at once. Parts of the ideas can (and should) be implemented in stages. The advantage to that approach is that you get new features sooner - and get to test and tweak the core concepts and underlying implementation paradigm before committing to a multi-faceted feature set addition to the game.

None of this precludes some new "hint system". But a "hint" system, at least as far as I've read of other people's ideas on how to implement it, doesn't sound all that fun. If I want to get data on a system I've not yet visited, I want to use tech to obtain that data, not necessarily buy the bartender a beer and ask him for rumors. Each methodology can co-exist though.

[Edited on 10-15-2010 by Aesir Rising]

[Capt_Caveman]

here's an idea, after killing enemy and we grab the're cargo, what if a very small percentage (less than 1% maybee) carry intelligence, small bits of an enemy's nav log, chart, etc. that could be salvaged as well

would be a nice incentive to go on a vonari killing spree.

[Von Paulus]

Originally posted by Aesir Rising
Each methodology can co-exist though.

[Edited on 10-15-2010 by Aesir Rising]

I was reading your post and was thinking exactly the same. These are two different approaches that can co-exist in terms of gameplay.
Your approach would really enforce the exploration part.
This is a sandbox space simulator. I recognize that Evochron has the potentiality to become the game which each of us individually want. That's pretty amazing.

[soulsacrifice]

I would like to see a piece of equipment that drops you out of auto-pilot when something (planet, moon, station etc.) is within 15x15x15 sectors of you. Currently my seach method is to set coordinates and autopilot until I spot something, or get to my destination and then set new coordinates. The chances of me spotting something are unlikely and I always feel that even if I was on the path of something I may not spot it. With this equipment it could drop me out of auto-pilot and give me an audio alert. That would be all I need to make exploring less tedious at times.

[Edited on 10-15-2010 by soulsacrifice]

[Aesir Rising]

Von Paulus: Well, now that you make me think it about it more, I realize the hint system has a different objective than what I was writing about.

A hint system is likely going to appeal more towards someone that wants to get to the destination - where the important part is arriving at the interesting place.

A probe/satellite/survey implementation is going to appeal more to someone that is interested in the trip between point A and B, and considers finding the interesting place at least as fun as arriving there.

I get in my car sometimes just to drive around, with no planned destination. My wife gets in a car to go someplace.

[Knight Rider]

I saw some really nice valid points on both ends.

I'm currently exploring, and I have to be honest, it's been a little frustrating not finding a darn hidden system yet. It would be helpful to have exploration tools (like a long range probe) that would assist your Science Officer.

Your Science Officer should have the skills to interpret all the stars, nebulaes, and whatever else is out there. The Science officer would take all the data and plot a course on the highest probability of a system being found.

To be honest, I'm tired of my Science Officer loafing around. It's about time He/She became more interactive during exploration missions, instead of telling me there are possible resources on a planet, after I found it. I always respond, "No Sh%^ Sherlock".

That's what I would like to see, instead of looking for a needle in a hay stack.

Edit: I also wanted to add, the exploration tools could be the best of both worlds. If you are the hard core explorer, don't use them. If you need a little help after exploring the great unknown, they would be available for you and your Science officer.

[Edited on 10-15-2010 by Knight Rider]

[Sinbad]

One of the (many) beauties about Mercenaries which makes it different from many other games is that, with a little imagination, it can feel very realistic. If there is going to be a development along the exploration thread it should, as far as possible, reflect that "realistic" feel. I personally favor the hint system of facilitating exploration, in particular through contact with other AI pilots. If I imagine myself to be in my ship way out in deep space following up a rumour, and I encounter another pilot I would try to hail them and ask if they know any information. Maybe he doesn't or maybe he does, and maybe if you offer him a good sum he'll give you more precise info. This is something which could probably be incorporated into the trade console system.

I also like Soulsacrifice's idea of having a device that will automatically drop you out of FTL jump when you pass through a sector with something in. You could then set the autopliot for a very long trip and go and do something else instead of sitting staring at the NavMap for half an hour.

Whilst a little more aids to exploration would be a good thing I think it's important to still leave a lot of undiscovered stuff without any clues whatsoever. If not, within a short time, everything in the Evochron universe will become known and the game will lose its long-term appeal.

[Knight Rider]

Originally posted by MCCON
Whilst a little more aids to exploration would be a good thing I think it's important to still leave a lot of undiscovered stuff without any clues whatsoever. If not, within a short time, everything in the Evochron universe will become known and the game will lose its long-term appeal.

"Hence", personal taste.

[BraveHart]

"I know that in the past if someone had some news to report...he or she would send off a note to vice and it could be added to the online news screen...Maybe those who know of hidden systems could send in a hint to be added to the news in game or the hints could have a slot in the news automatically...Just a thought" ...."or maybe I am just having a "Yoda moment" in that case don't pay attention to the little guy behind the curtain"

[Jester]

A simple addition (relatively speaking) could be adding "gossip" to the news console when docked at stations.

Afterall the first place a pilot is going to head for on docking is the bar....... And we all know how a few drinks can lead to mouths flapping........


Sure new tools would be very nice to have, but would the result really warrant the amount of work this would entail to implement them? Some should be fairly easy (for example adapting the long range probe may be the most obvious) others would potentially either be extremely difficult to implement or would run the risk of making the game far to easy.

[Knight Rider]

Originally posted by BraveHart
"I know that in the past if someone had some news to report...he or she would send off a note to vice and it could be added to the online news screen...Maybe those who know of hidden systems could send in a hint to be added to the news in game or the hints could have a slot in the news automatically...Just a thought" ...."or maybe I am just having a "Yoda moment" in that case don't pay attention to the little guy behind the curtain"

Old Great One, you shine again. That is a great idea. The news console could offer hints and tidbits of information in the sector you're currently in.

[Edited on 10-15-2010 by Knight Rider]

[Aesir Rising]

Originally posted by MCCON
Whilst a little more aids to exploration would be a good thing I think it's important to still leave a lot of undiscovered stuff without any clues whatsoever. If not, within a short time, everything in the Evochron universe will become known and the game will lose its long-term appeal.

Check this out - from another topic:

Originally posted by Vice
The Evochron Quadrant itself is about +/- 5000 sectors SX, SZ, +/- 2 sectors SY on the galactic ecliptic.

That would indicate 400 million sectors to explore within the Evochron Quadrant itself.

(5,000 * 2)^2*4.

If 1 probe completely uncovered a sector for you every second, you'd need to play about 13 years non-stop to plant a probe in every sector. And in my conceptualization of a probe system, you'd need more than one probe to fully-explore a single sector - and each probe would require a period of time to collect data (more than a second).

tl;dr: If I understand the Vice quote correctly, there's no reason to worry about finishing the game any time soon, with or without a bunch of exploration aids or a news network of hints.

[Sinbad]

Hmm, well if it's going to take that long I'd better put the kettle on...