Cap ships can\'t hurt each other?

xman1 · Post by **xman1** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:42 pm

I have yet to see a cap ship actually damage another cap ship. The only time is when I have already wiped out the shields. Has anyone else seen a cap ship blow up another cap ship? This would add a ton of atmosphere. Maybe multiple turrets added could be cool too.

Post by **Vice** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:02 pm

From a previous thread:

The capital ships will help bring down each other's shields with their beam weapons, [but] small ships need to engage. Capital ships are not considered the big threats in this game, they're slow, lumbering, and generally have to rely on defensive/supportive roles due to their inherent limitations.

So they can damage each other, but the objective to seriously damage or destroy them still rests with the player (and other smaller ships).

SVB · Post by **SVB** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:56 am

I think the mechanics should work way differently...
Capital ships should be VERY BIG, have MANY GUNS, beam weapons, and flak turrets to defend itself from bombs...

Anti fighter weapons to target fighters, but so you can hear when it powers up and shoots, and dodge the beam before it hits you - almost devastating your fighter in matter of seconds if you stay under it,

WHile having big beams to fight other capital ships and take down they shields...

FIghters should work on surgical attacks by disabling the ship's shields, cannons, destroying beams so the friendly ships will not get blasted, and then work on destroying the ship with the help of capital ships!!!

-----
In EL there are small "Battleships" and "Command ships" using one beam to try and do anything... they float around and rely heavily on their fighters... heavily!!!!

A player fighter pilot can just fire excals under the cap ship where the beam can't "destroy" the missles.... and then in a few hits only the player will kill it, no body else...

What SHOULD happen is this -
Capital ships must have HEAVY hull (Health) and an HEAVY shield with low recharge rate (because its HUGE) and have MANY guns on it with HUGE cooldowns...

BEams must take down Capital ships, and fighters (they do sometimes in EL, but to an enemy cap ship they don't do much)
Flaks should take out missles, almost all of them (That is why you destroy these after you destroy the beam weapons, to prevent friendly cap ship from the doom)
Lazer turrets must attack all enemies by firing low yield rapid fire lasers at the enemy... it should look like capital ship firing rapid laser on another, adding a "huge space battle feeling"

EDIT: random space battle GIF from an old space game

This would be great if "edited" to the game...
Just multiply the size of the ship and add a ton of turrets and beams to it liek I said above... and actually have a skematic of Alliance and VOnari ships players can look at and coordinate where to strike first!!!

That is strategy!

[Edited on 7-12-2009 by SVB]

SVB · Post by **SVB** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:05 am

Can it be done to EL?
I might be able to say that everyone will agree that even in this mercenary space game, lonewolf, FREEFORM.... the "Alliance" should be very powerful, so with this "Threat" the Vonari...

Not much threat.... not much of that action..
Seems like a cold war

---
More edit: the FIghters will still be a big role in the game, like I said - it is all up to the fighters taking down the enemy capital ship's turrets so the friendly fighters will not get hurt...
A MAJOR problem with this is that in the EL univerce - ANY ship is very hard to control, and ANY missle is pretty much the end for you if it hits.... we usually stroll around using 4K< insertial.... or shoot the missles behind....
and accelaration sucks, so if you are trying to turn - your velocity never lets you... its not like driving a car, but more like skiing down sideways trying to go FORWARD when youre going down.... and to the side..
Would be easier if you could maneuver faster and actually turn..

[Edited on 7-12-2009 by SVB]

Koranis · Post by **Koranis** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:03 pm

To be honest I think the right way is there in the middle.

While I appreciate this take on space battles, it feels a little unbalanced.

If we take what Vice states as pure gold (and I do! So say we all!:)) then we should talk about the cap ship purpose and different classes.

What is the main purpose of the capital ship in this game other than being a CONVINIENT target for the player?

It cannot be destroyed by another cap ship. Only The small crafts pose a main threat to it. So what need do we have for Destroyers, Cruisers and Command ships?

Only carriers would do, launching swarms of small ships.

I like the space battle depicted in Legends, but I would propose to specialize different classes in order to give them a meaning.

Command and Carriers classes could be left as they are now: in need of fighter escort because small fighters are still the main danger for the capital ships.

Destroyers should be in first line for anti-cap duties, as the Cruisers, but since we have no Frigates there is no counter against assault crafts.

Either we add a new anti-fighter capital ship or make the Destroyers real money for the fighters.

What do you think?

Post by **Vice** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:14 pm

I think that's an excellent direction to go in. 'More intense capital ship battles' as a general goal.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:31 pm

More chalenges are always good!

ShaggyMoose · Post by **ShaggyMoose** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:57 am

Originally posted by SVB:
Awesome Freespace 2 animated GIF!

What a great game. Much more Wing Commander than Elite though, which is how I tend to think of Evochron. Still, certainly has the best capital ship battles of any game I can think of.

[Edited on 14-7-2009 by ShaggyMoose]

BraveHart · Post by **BraveHart** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:51 am

Originally posted by Vice
I think that's an excellent direction to go in. 'More intense capital ship battles' as a general goal.

That would indeed be Great to see

SVB · Post by **SVB** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:42 am

Any cap ship upgrades (NOT piloting them is O.K.) is a very big boost in the game. From the size of them, the biggest of dreadnaught flag ships (MAIN MAIN ships!) They should be so big that they provide coverage, and extra gunpower...

Not ONLY you have to disable the enemy ship, but also defend your's..

Less bombage on the player, more tactic, and a greater challange - since then the capital ships will be the one thing you have to protect.

And it is true. That is what the fighters are for.
Bombers are for offence... Fighters intercept things

verbosity · Post by **verbosity** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:04 am

Personally I'd love to be able to use them as a "defensive wall" from the missiles, it freaked me out the first time I saw one "phase" through a captial on its way to me............

SVB · Post by **SVB** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:19 am

If it was possible in real life, that is exactly what will happen!

Capital ships should be big, unless there is many types that ACTUALLY SERVE A PURPOSE

Like small, medium, and large transports are as big as capital ships in evochron..

There should be ships like... Cruisers (medium ships, for firepower mostly) and battleships (Large ships, heavy fire) and destroyers or some dreadnaught

tha_rami · Post by **tha_rami** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:29 am

I've been saying Capital Ships are not powerful enough, but indeed, they're in the game to be a convenient, not a hard target.

However, I would like them to be generally more defensive. The beam guns in Arvoch were pretty awesome - and remember back in the days of Starwraith, when each of those things was equipped with turrets on both sides?

I like the notion of sometimes not being THE factor in combat, but instead just A factor.

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:31 am

Originally posted by verbosity
Personally I'd love to be able to use them as a "defensive wall" from the missiles, it freaked me out the first time I saw one "phase" through a captial on its way to me............

Hmmm, that sounds like a "bug" to me!

SVB · Post by **SVB** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:26 pm

The "Powerful" capital ships don't target fighters, silly

But fighters will have a hard time defending a cruiser compare to a battleship, since cruisers are much much weaker, even in gunfire, but are still equiped with many things for it's size!

verbosity · Post by **verbosity** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:32 pm

Originally posted by MMaggio
Originally posted by verbosity
Personally I'd love to be able to use them as a "defensive wall" from the missiles, it freaked me out the first time I saw one "phase" through a captial on its way to me............
Hmmm, that sounds like a "bug" to me!

No actually the missiles 'attune' themselves to the target. and to avoid accident collisions with non-target objects they 'phase' out till they are close to the target object ( I had a looong chat with vice about it once iirc)

tha_rami · Post by **tha_rami** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:26 pm

Although that really doesn't make a lot of sense

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:44 pm

Whew! Thank you Rami. I was begiining to think I was in the "twilight zone".

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:06 pm

Uuuuuuuuuuuhm! Good to know!LOL:P:P:P