Cargo bay swapping

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:41 pm

I did a search of the forum on this subject but could not find the answer, so forgive me if it has already been discussed.

Being a new player it took me some time before I filled all of my equipment slots and had other equipment stored in my cargo bays. I immediately saw that I could swap one piece of equipment with another while docked at a station (as long as I have an empty bay) but was surprised when I could not do the same while flying. Since there are a limited amount of equipment slots any many types of equipment it would be nice to be able to swap them out on the fly depending on your needs at the time. I know it can be easily discounted by saying that the install requires expert technicians to accomplish which can only be found at the stations but thought it would be a nice addition allowing the player more options while flying in space.

So my question is if this been discussed before and if not could it be considered for a future build.

49rTbird · Post by **49rTbird** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:56 pm

It has been discussed but reasoned away. We all can't be happy (lol).

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:19 pm

Boy that was fast, thanks thetiebers!

I would be nice but I'm sure Vice has his reasons for not implementing it.

Post by **Vice** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:53 pm

Weapon and equipment swapping in space was proposed and shot down (harshly). You can read much of the discussion here, including the vote changes and points raised on both sides: http://www.starwraith.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3002

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:52 pm

Thanks Vice, I appreciate the link!

Post by **Marvin** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:28 pm

I, too, thank you for the link. Now that I've read thru most of the posts ... it seems that by about page 4 it's totally oriented toward weapons swap. I can understand that.

But what about us explorers? Carrying an engineer on board, we should be able to at least swap out what's in our cargo bay. We don't rush into the heat of battle ... we prefer to hustle across hostile areas of space, at max speed, in search of sanctuary.

More importantly, I'm planning to build a galaxy from scratch ... one with systems located in three dimensions. But I don't plan to populate it with a lot of refueling points. Ergo, I'll need (hard coded in the game) a way of swapping between repairs and refueling ... while in space. So I can repair when I'm forced to fight my way across a sector. And refuel when I come across a nebula or a planet with rings composed of water.

tha_rami · Post by **tha_rami** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:58 pm

Well, no, what you should do is build in both a Fuel Converter and Repair System, then possibly drop the Cannon Relay and Cargo Scanner.

So, I think your setup would be (Tractor/Mining Beam, Fulcrum Drive, Fuel Converter, Repair System, Shield Booster).

You need to think about your role. The current limitations make the game more of a 'choose your role' instead of 'you can have it all', and I've even supported a vote making the Mining Beam a seperate item from the Tractor Beam, and even allowing things like Radar upgrades as equipment items.

Post by **Marvin** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:18 am

A radar upgrade would be nice ... but I doubt it would help me set course for a star system thirty or forty sectors away. For that I'll need to use an old-fashioned, handheld nav computer. (I can put it right next to my "green book" notepad.)

About having "Scotty" switch out pieces of equipment, I suppose if he won't do it, I'm stuck with storing the cannon relay in favor of the fuel converter. Thanks for the suggestion. (Although I do wish Vice would open the discussion again ... especially since it was last voted on in Renegades.)

tha_rami · Post by **tha_rami** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:43 am

Heh, personally, I'd still urge against it. Like said, it would limit the need to choose and optimize, two things that are both crucial to creating a 'human economy'.

Discussion is good - this post could even lead to a discussion. No discussion is ever closed, as far as I know, unless its really useless (no, we won't have a XBOX360 emulator on-board).

Post by **Marvin** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:23 pm

Originally posted by tha_rami
(no, we won't have a XBOX360 emulator on-board).

LOL ... my thumbs were never coordinated enough to use a game pad.

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:35 pm

From reading the previous topic on this subject I saw valid arguments on both sides, I personally would have voted yes until I saw that Vice had changed his mind about allowing equipment swaps and it was to be for weapons only. To me adding the ability for your crew to swap out equipment would make them more valuable, I could just imagine them running around the ship yelling "Where's the wrench".

One thing I did not see proposed in the other topic and I'm not sure if it is possible is to have an option to turn swapping on or off on the front end screen. This would allow the player to choose if he wants to use it or not. The same could be done for the server much like we currently have the option to bring our SP efforts to the MP world or not.

The suggestion by Vice to make a space swap take longer would also add to the realism and make the player have to think long and hard before committing. If he does it at the wrong time and hostile forces are moving in he could find himself in deep trouble. A player would also be faced with another decision that was discussed during Renegades, do I carry more equipment or do I keep my bays open for trading materials. Having choices is what it's all about, the more a player has to make the more varied the outcome will be in his game.

The concerns I read all seemed to be from a military point of view, they stated that it would cause an imbalance for players on the server but I see that now when an experienced player joins a server. He could have been playing for a long time and his ship is maxed out while another player who just started is still flying in a tin can with wings. Most if not all players that I have met online have been civil and will not engage in PvP combat unless the other party agrees so most already understand that there is going to be a balance issue between the old heads with their fully upgraded craft and the new player who is just starting to get the hang of it.

As I mentioned earlier if it is possible to have this as an option that can be turned on and off it would please both those for and those against. The more options a player has the more attractive the game becomes, we all have different ideas and styles of play so doing something like this would in my opinion help to get more players to join.

Krellon-VEX · Post by **Krellon-VEX** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:06 pm

Usually I do not join forums and was not going to join this one. However, after reading Gordon's last post I have to agree. Too many developers get into this thing about realism in their games and end up ruining the whole experience. It is not about realism. It is about what is enjoyable to each player. Those who only think about fighting all the time might think about realism. However, some of us are not into that type of thinking. I will never play a game for the MP side of it. It is always single player for me. So for me I am not concerned about balance issues against another player. It is more about exploring space. Seeing whats out there. I agree that maybe the weapons should not be exchangeable in space. But to me you should be able to at least exchange equipment. My two cents for what it's worth. After all if it was about what's real we probably would not be sitting in front of video screens exploring dreams of space, we'd probably be out there living it.

By the way, this is for Vice. In the opening screen after loading your profile you see a little icon for your progress on the military side of the game. But for the civilian side you just see a number and then how far you have progressed (ex... 135 skilled). Is it possible to also show the civilian badge or button. In the documentation it shows that for skilled I should be carrying two blue circular buttons. Thank you Vice for a nice game of space exploration and science fiction.

[Edited on 3-15-2009 by Krellon-VEX]

49rTbird · Post by **49rTbird** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:36 pm

Hello Krellon-VEX, welcome to forum and the game.

PingBosun · Post by **PingBosun** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:17 pm

Hmm. There is a point to be made ref in flight cargo swaps (but certainly not weapon swaps).

Maybe with all the new players it is possibly time to review.

By the way, welcome all new pilots. I have no doubt you will be impressed by this sim and rest assured that MP is brilliant!!

See you all out there sometime.

Post by **Marvin** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:36 am

Originally posted by PingBosunBy the way, welcome all new pilots. I have no doubt you will be impressed by this sim and rest assured that MP is brilliant!!

Thanks. And I'm already impressed ... with the game's scope and MP/SP functionality.

verbosity · Post by **verbosity** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:49 am

Ok a bit off-topic

Originally posted by Gordon
He could have been playing for a long time and his ship is maxed out while another player who just started is still flying in a tin can with wings.

Vice has always balanced the games ( and if anything Legends is more balanced in this way than any previous game), in a way that even a new player with the basic setup has a chance. It possible for a pilot to survive ( even defeat !) an attack from a leviathian!

Smaller ships are (much!) faster, smaller weapons fire more shots per second and the more basic missiles are faster ( I've taken pilots out using echelons due to their increased speed!).

I'm with rami on the not-swapping, allowing a player to swap in-flight does allow them to 'have-it-all' , I could have a stealth generator and fuel convertor in the hold and just swap as required.

yeah and welcome to everyone I've not yet said hi to!

Krellon-VEX · Post by **Krellon-VEX** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:09 pm

Carwash, Thanks for the Sketchup file of your cockpit. Thank's to everyone for the welcome.

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:38 pm

I agree with you Verbosity, Vice has done a wonderful job with his game and yes even the smallest ship can take on the Goliath's if they are being flown by skilled pilots. This item is a wish list and at the end of the day it will not break the game or its enjoyment if it is not implemented. My point is about giving the players as many options as possible to entice more people to purchase the game. Some may want this game to be explorers, others want it for battles and others want it for the MP experience (which is awesome by the way), I personally like to mix it up taking on all the roles the game has to offer. This allows the game to remain fresh, even with all the X series has to offer after a while it becomes tedious, to the point that I have not fired it up in a long time.

Of course a green player having the ability to swap equipment is not going to have an advantage against a better skilled player who can do the same but at least he feels he has options. I used to play and still do more SP than MP so my thinking is more for these type of players where it is you against the AI and having this option in no way is going to ruin the experience, matter of fact it will IMO enhance the enjoyability. In MP it can make a big enough difference and this is where I understand the concerns that is why I asked if it were possible to make it a front end option allowing the server operator to make the call. Players that do not agree with cargo swapping would then have the option of steering clear of servers set up with this option and join one that does not but it would allow those that want to be able to make swaps the option of doing so.

Considering that our current technology and where is has advanced from, I envision that in the future we are going to be able to do more not less. Think about it, the computer we now run used to take up a building the size of the White house and even then it was not as powerful. We can do things today that our parents only dreamed of, we can reach out to anyone in the world by just going to the internet and carry music players the size of a credit card that can plug in almost anywhere. Why would we not be able to do things like this in the future when we can already do them now (as evident in our military).

Everyone's concept of the future is going to be different but one thing I think all can agree on is that technology will improve not digress.

Thank you for the welcome, you and the others have been most kind, makes us greenies feel welcome from day one!

Post by **Marvin** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:20 pm

Originally posted by Gordon: makes us greenies feel welcome from day one!

That would be tomorrow. Happy Saint Paddy's Day!

tha_rami · Post by **tha_rami** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:20 am

Like stated before, the main point is balance and feeling of role. If you can be everything at once, there's no reason to be anything at all. Being something, a miner, or an explorer, or a fighter is part of the game philosophy. Personally, I feel that at this point, this isn't reflected enough - exactly why I propose more equipment items without adding equipment slots. That way, you could optimize your ship for your role even further. Personally, I like mining and exploration, so I've got a great engine, fuel tank and 5 cargo bays installed. If I want to fight, I simply switch into a military ship.

With the new hangar options, you should be able to switch roles pretty fast as well.

So, my main objection against switching in-flight isn't realism (screw realism, as long as somethings fun and convincing, it's good) but game mechanics.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:08 pm

I Agree with tha-rami, Thats what I like about EL. Sinds I started EL Ver 1.058 I did not go back playing ER. Swapping roles is easy, intresting, fun and chalenging in EL, You can store your ships, setup with the equipment for the role you want to play, and just swap ships when in the ship yard!, so you don't have to spend time swapping equipment. You can store has many ships as you can afford. I have two at the moment!

(Don't forget where you stored your ships though, other wise you end up searching the whole universe for that expensive hard earned ship!) actually you will get messages from the stations where you stored your ships for the storage fee being charged. So pay attention to your messages and your credits:P