Thrusters in Inertial not controllable by throttle stick?

ixelion · Post by **ixelion** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:57 pm

I'm new to EM, and getting used to flying around, I have a HOTAS setup and found that the keys for inertial speed increase/decrease cannot be controlled by an analogue throttle axis? Does this make sense? Doesn't this essentially control the same thrusters as in IDS mode? So if I want to decrease/increase my speed in inertial I have to press buttons instead of use my throttle? With my limited experience it feels like maneuvering in inertial mode slightly unintuitive as I rely heavily on afterburner and switching to IDS (ignoring Inertial speed inc/dec altogether).

Am I doing something wrong?

Post by **Vice** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:58 pm

Button controls are separate functions from axis controls in this game. All you need to do is map one of your controller's axis channels to 'Inertial Forward/Reverse' and you can have variable control of inertial forward/reverse thrusters on the joystick without being limited to on/off button input. You can read more about the game's control system and its dedicated mapping options designed for each method of input here: http://www.starwraith.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11271

Post by **DaveK** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:16 pm

If you're talking inertial forward and reverse I had mine on a two way switch on my stick (Saitek X52Pro) but now have them on one of the two way switches of my Thrustmaster MFD Cougar Flight Panels They seem to work fine in both situations. I've also tried it on a two way rotary control on the throttle and that worked as well, once I realised why I couldn't stop! (I'd nudged the control slightly

)

Might work out for you

Post by **Marvin** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:49 pm

I have none of that flim-flamery ... my throttle controls speed in both IDS and inertial mode. Granted, I got my practice playing Orbiter ... but practice makes perfect.

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:05 am

What I did is bought about a $10 Footswitch FSP-3 - which is an HID only interface - that has 3 foot switched on it - from Amazon.com. It has a pice of software (you can download a newer version) that lets to assigh a Keypress to the 3 switches (you can't assign multiple keypresses except in the case of like Alt-Ctrl-A for example or a String like "testing")
They default to sending A B C to whatever program has the windows "Focus".
So I have my keyboard remapped so the the Arrow keys on my Laptop are After Burn, Inertial Forward, Intertial Reverse, and Reverse (IDS).
In the footswitch software I set the switch to send the Arrow Key presses for Inert Rev, Inert Fwd, and Reverse so I can control those with my foot and leave my hands free for the Gamepad controls and keyboard.
I only with it wold send multiple keystrokes because what I would really like is for the Reverse to be able to send Reverse + Afterburn.
Again, this is only HID, it does NOT show up as a Game Controller, other wise one could probably use xpadder to do what I wish I could.

Post by **DaveK** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:20 am

From post: 173675, Topic: tid=11669, author=Marvin wrote: I have none of that flim-flamery ... my throttle controls speed in both IDS and inertial mode. Granted, I got my practice playing Orbiter ... but practice makes perfect.

Sounds perfect - how did you manage to set it up?

Post by **Marvin** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:59 pm

I don't remember. It's been a long time since I played Orbiter.

-splosives- · Post by **-splosives-** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:37 am

I removed the IDS throttle controlls and replaced them with inertial forward/reverse, and now I just fly only in inertial mode. Whenever I do need IDS, I use buttons 1 to 9 on my keyboard.

Beta_ver · Post by **Beta_ver** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:03 pm

I discovered this huge game not long ago but I have the impression that this throttle control for inertial only involves secondary thrusters, not the main engine.
It is difficult to realize what difference there is between this or that engine, besides top speed in IDS mode.
I find a bit odd that the throttle controls the speed, this would be a job for cruise control or some other function regulating a set speed.
To my understanding, the ship has the following :
- secondary thrusters : up down right left, but also fwrd/rev (derived from main engine ?)
- main engine : fwrd/rev/afterburner
It makes sense to have the secondary thrusters mapped on the keyboard, unless you have as many throttles available.
In IDS mode, you can either turn on 100% or off your main engine to reach the speed you set with your throttle.
In inertial, the throttle axis seems to control the secondary fwrd/rev thrusters in on off mode. I do not hear the main engine.
I could not find a mode where the throttle control would control your throttle, meaning you can actually control the thrust the main engine provides from 0% to 100% and all values in between.
So instead of controlling the speed, couldn't the throttle simply control the fuel intake : have different thrust values possible, from 0 to 100%, or -100% to 100% on the main throttle ?
IDS could still limit the max speed vs engine type/frame in this mode, or maybe just make it available for inertial if it's too much of a headache, not sure, but I think it would add a great deal of realism to the piloting, more challenge and potentially more possibilities to maneuver the ship as it would include a new parameter to deal with for the pilots : acceleration.
In situ example :
When fighting a bunch of reds (in sp), they temd to pile up in a row, you set to inertial and begin gaining lateral speed, then you circle them (I think) due to high lateral speed and them trying to follow you.
Next step is getting within range progressively. 2 options : hit the afterburner (very fuel consuming), or toggle between IDS/inertial to initiate closing in on target.
Well, with a throttle control controlling your thrust from -100% to 100% it would be a bit different, you could adjust the closing in curve just with a progressive thrust, more precisely.

Come to think of it, this absence of control over fuel intake (thrust power) is visible when you refuel on the corona of a star :
- you are close to the star, so gravity is high, it pulls you into it's core.
- you set your ids to the same speed as the gravity of the star + a few k's using the throttle.
- once balance point is reached, your speed is for example 750, you are fighting the gravity of the star, but your engines are all off. (then I should be sucked right back into the star, no ?) and the ship sits there at rest, ignoring that start trying to eat it.
In this case you would need to set a thrust value to reach balance point and refuel without moving, not set a speed, something not logical here I'd say.
If you try that in inertial mode, which is more realistic, then you can either :
- hit the afterburner from time to time (makes crew members and passengers throw up)
- try to use the secondary inertial thrusters and die vaporized
but impossible to simply use your main engines, set the throttle to the balance value, and burn the fuel it costs to be able to refuel on a star.

Maybe it would also make differences between engines more obvious too. Could even make engines with different character vs type, some taking more time to rev up, different power curves and so on.
Currently seems the different engines are characterized by the limitation of the speed in various IDS modes (once again there is for me 2 different functions, an assistive help that could be managed by a different console and IDS :IDS sets the max speed in it's various modes, cut off engine when you reach it, then the console let you deal with specific requested cruise speeds). Not sure the thrust power is in the model already and not sure I didn't miss something , I'm going to test with the inertial throttle control again but I don't recall the big engine sounding ...

[Edited on 24-12-2014 by Beta_ver]

[Edited on 24-12-2014 by Beta_ver]

Post by **Marvin** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:01 pm

Perhaps you have your throttle set improperly. In IDS mode, mine works similarly to an aircraft throttle ... the main difference being that, at high speeds, it takes longer for maneuvering thrusters to compensate for inertial drift. In inertial mode, I usually use thrusters, via the joystick, to change pitch and heading ... then afterburner to change vectors.

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:21 am

It can all be confusing and other can explain it better than me.
But I will tell you some things I've done.

First I have an unusual set up. I just couldn't get the hang of us a Joystick for Pitch, Roll, Turning. I have a hard time using Roll effectively in say combat or racing conditions.

I have 2 Gamepads hooked up on my laptop.
My Razer I use the Left Stick for Pitch and Turn and the two analog triggers for Roll. This works pretty well for me.
I have the Right Stick on the Razer mapped to the Strafe Thruster which works well in Inertial mode.
Then I have two button maped for Engine speed - and + and a 3rd button for Afterburn.

The 2nd gamepad I have on the left side of my laptop and turined 180 degrees and it just sits there - I don't hold it.
One of the Buttons on it I have specially mapped (using EM options plus Xpadder).
This button is mainly for use in Inertial mode when I need to slow down fast. This button when I press it does 2 things - it engages Reverse Engine plus Afterburn at the same time.
I wanted to map that to a 3 button Foot switch I use but it's not a Game Device but a HID (Human Interface Device) so EM doesn't see it - the software that comes with it letf you map the 3 foot button to a single key press just as if they were Keyboard buttons - so two of them I have mapped to send Inertial Forward and Reverse so I don't have to use the Keyboard for that. The 2rd foot switch send just plain onld Reverse Engine (still useful to free up a hand).

I wish I could get the hang of using Pitch, Roll, Turn for all flight conditions but this old brain just can't hack it and with the gamepads only being 2 axis sticks it wouldn't help me much even if I could. And I really hated the big, bulky Logitech Extreme 3d Pro.

Anyway, maybe this will give you some ideas on configuring buttons and/or throttles to some of your engine/thruster problems.

Beta_ver · Post by **Beta_ver** » Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:56 pm

OK, tested this again, here's what I have :
In inertial mode, the throttle uses secondary thrusters in on/off mode for fwrd/rev.
It s possible to maintain position is a star corona with inertial thrusters, I didn't think this possible but yes it is.
I compared the acceleration of those secondary inertial thrusters with the main engine acceleration (only available in IDS mode). It looks like the main engine thrust is (logically) more powerful than the inertial thrusters used when the throttle is binded to thrust in inertial mode.
The main engine does provide a faster acceleration, although I would have though the difference would be more obvious.

Nowhere could I find a way to have control over the main engine, other than on/off mode to reach a certain speed in IDS mode. In Inertial mode, the only way to even use it is the afterburner.

The flight experience is great already but having control over the main engine would be more fun.
It may not be as simple as it sounds so started thinking so as to not modify too much the way it works today.
- In inertial mode, instead of controlling the fwrd/rev thrusters in on Off mode with the throttle, have the main engine in progressive mode -100% to 100%, so for example if you want to accelerate with your main engine at 57%, up to a speed of 8500, just hit the inertial mode and set your throttle to the appropriate position, then place it in the center to stop the engine once desired speed is achieved, then if you want to slow down faster, just pull the throttle back to -90% and the main engines provide 90% rev thrust. stopping the ship and making it start to accelerate reverse if the throttle is not set back to 0.
- In IDS mode, it doesn't change much, maybe make a setting available to choose between actual "speed setting mode", and the main engine toggling on/off to achieve the setting as fast as possible, or throttle mode, controlling fuel intake, where IDS would function as now, limiting the max speed as before, maintaining ship course as per Newtonian model and as physics permits with the secondary thrusters, but giving control of the main engine thrust to the pilot and not interfering with the speed except to limit it to it's max value vs IDS setting (above which I guess the secondary thrusters and the IDS flight control computer won't be able to help anymore, hence the limitation of max speed, which makes perfect sense).

I have no issues with knowing what to map where on my side, all the controls are logical and the flight model makes sense and is quite realistic to me.
I do really miss the engine power control on the throttle, but the actual speed setting based system is nice too, so being able to toggle those 2 modes in IDS would be great.
It would also be great to be able to use the main engine with adjustable power in inertial mode, for now the only way to use it is the afterburner.

Going back to play now, I have a quest to continue