Nav Map Log

[Vice]

If there is to be a future Evochron title, one of the elements I'll want to spend quite a bit of time reviewing, prototyping, and reworking/changing will likely be the navigation system. So I'd like to open a thread with the goal of discussing possible changes and additions to the navigation console/map system that some players feel might improve it.

As many of you probably know, this is a re-re-review of navigation system discussions/debates over the last several years dating all the way back to around 2005, but it's good to review such things as I want to continually develop and improve on the Evochron formula. I have already developed a list of things I want to work on for prototyping some improvements to the navigation system, so one of the goals of this discussion is also to help me gauge if I'm on the right track and how close I may be with those objectives to what players would like to see added, deleted, or changed.

From time to time, some players state they want to see the nav map/console system 'improved', but unfortunately, very few bother to articulate -how- they want to see it improved. Then some specific suggestions fall too far outside of the realm of the game's needs (ie exact plotting of nav/way points in 3D space) while others lack a functional improvement and would actually take the game back a step or two in terms of accessibility, accuracy, speed, and/or capability. For there to be potential improvement behind a suggestion or request, a feature or option needs to provide a measureable benefit that is relevant to Evochron's design. So when participating in this discussion and posting requests, suggestions, or ideas, please keep the following objectives and conditions in mind:

- Be as objective as you can. Little attention can be paid to 'this sucks' or 'that sucks' nor can much attention be paid to terms like 'better' or 'worse' without detailed objective explanations to provide context and legitimacy to such statements. So don't be afraid to go into detail on what you would like to see and (specifically) why it would improve the navigation system in your opinion.

- Be as relevant as you can with your post. That is, suggestions should be relevant to Evochron, its design and capabilities, rather than something else. Pointing to a different game generally carries little weight with me (especially under subjective conditions and/or with a game that fundamentally operates very differently). My focus is on Evochron and making it better within its design priorities and options, however unique or common a particular option or attribute might be. So when posting ideas, requests, or suggestions, it will help to make sure they conform to what Evochron is about, not the least of which includes its fully open 3D environment that allows the player to place a nav point anywhere within sensor range in that 3D environment and then freely travel there.

- Improvements can be big or small. Even if you think your suggestion or request might be too small to be significant, please share it. Sometimes, the smallest changes can help make a bigger improvement in overall functionality and accessibility.

- Consideration for improvements will likely focus on what can potentially make the nav map perform faster, more accurately, more legibly, and/or with improved accessibility (particularly for new users).

[Marvin]

Here's one suggestion which pertains as much to autopilot as it does to the nav map (and navigation in general): have the autopilot fly a direct route from point A to point B such that it does not zig-zag and that, except at the final jump, always jumps the maximum distance accommodated by the installed class of hyper-drive.

[_-Caleb-_]

Hola.

I think this: The actual nav. console is good but can will be better.

For example, the coords are important in the evo nav console, important and usefull. (This is a immovable point for me)

The method for show the sector/systems is good, but i like the 3D mode of Arvoch Alliance (Extrapolated to the full System size (Around 6-8 sectors and with zoomed 3d sectors))

For the EM players i've recorded a vid of the 3d map in Arvoch Alliance. Video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/omptb2a976p60bo/nav3d.mp4

With this we can see in "realtime" the position of the objects into a system (And we can see a real 3d map of the system) or in a sector for example. Also we can "erase" the top view mode, if we can see in 3d we don't need use the top view nevermore.

EDITED: Another thing is the sectors to waypoints text... actually don't have sense, we can see the number of sectors remaining in the waypoint icon in the hud from EM2...

Regards.

[Edited on 31-7-2014 by _-Caleb-_]

[Vice]

With this we can see in "realtime" the position of the objects into a system (And we can see a real 3d map of the system) or in a sector for example. Also we can "erase" the top view mode, if we can see in 3d we don't need use the top view nevermore.

A method of presenting nav data in 3D is on the drawing board for prototyping. However, it wouldn't allow plotting precise jump/waypoints as experiments in the past have shown when providing a 3D map to players. How would you envision trying to plot an exact (down to the precise coordinate) point in space on a map at a non-fixed 0 or 90 degree orientation? A 3D map would likely be helpful in determining object position relations though, so it could still be a handy tool when used in conjunction with the 2D orientation modes. One (3D) mode could be used for helping to determine positions in space while the other (2D) modes could be used for plotting points in open space.

[DaveK]

The method for show the sector/systems is good, but i like the 3D mode of Arvoch Alliance (Extrapolated to the full System size (Around 6-8 sectors and with zoomed 3d sectors))

For the EM players i've recorded a vid of the 3d map in Arvoch Alliance. Video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/omptb2a976p60bo/nav3d.mp4

With this we can see in "realtime" the position of the objects into a system (And we can see a real 3d map of the system) or in a sector for example. Also we can "erase" the top view mode, if we can see in 3d we don't need use the top view nevermore.

Does the 3D mode in AA allow zooming out to show multiple sectors or is it just a rotation of one sector? I don't play AA but I thought it was limited to one sector missions. I wonder how cluttered would it look in the equivalent of top view mode when zoomed out to include the 16x16 sector grid, given that most objects are close to the Y=0 plane?

I agree that a 3D view would help to to identify stations built out of the Y=0 plane so I guess that a one sector 3D view tool would be genuinely useful (at times) if used at a one sector zoom (and it does look cool! )

[DaveK]

Edit: removed this post - after a night's sleep I realised that I had missed the point!

[Edited on 1-8-2014 by DaveK]

[Marvin]

How would you envision trying to plot an exact (down to the precise coordinate) point in space on a map at a non-fixed 0 or 90 degree orientation?

Other games have done it by only allowing the plotting of points which are coexistent with objects ... such as stations, when up close, or stars/planets, when at a distance. If two objects overlap, then the closest object's coordinates would take precedence. To plot non-objective points in space, the coordinates would need to be entered manually ... the location then showing up on the 3D map as confirmation.

[Onirim]

The mouse wheel could zoom to the spot where the pointer is, not to the center.

And orbits could be displayed to easily notice you are within a star system and viewing it from off its plane and where the system's star is.

[Vice]

The mouse wheel could zoom to the spot where the pointer is, not to the center.

I've thought about this myself. Could you elaborate on potential benefits of doing this though? That is, what benefit would it offer over the current right click to snap zoom on any sector on the map?

[Busch]

From what I've seen so far, I'd go with the prototypes being developed. I think they'll tie in well with the radar MFD work that's been a 'community' effort.

[Onirim]

I think it would be nice to grey out everything down your field of view but not in your actual sector. Now you can see a station is there but when you zoom in you find it's not there anymore (because actually, it was never in that zoomed-in sector). Showing it (though greyed out) could add some depth perception without implementing the full 3D thing.

The mouse wheel could zoom to the spot where the pointer is, not to the center.

I've thought about this myself. Could you elaborate on potential benefits of doing this though? That is, what benefit would it offer over the current right click to snap zoom on any sector on the map?

I think it would feel more fluid and you would feel more in control of what's happening on that console. Now you may want to zoom in to a sector but that's not possible. You must right click it, it's more efficient this way but it feels like you are bringing that sector's map to the table from a dusty and webby* drawer. And as soon as you want to zoom out (or see whether to zoom farther in is possible) you'll fast snap back to your ship's sector. It kind of puts your brain to a not easy awareness test (not joking, I mean it).

If not possible with the mousewheel at least a zooming in animation could come in every time you right-click to snap to a sector (and zooming out when back to your ship's sector).

*not sure if it is even an actual word

[Edited on 1/8/2014 by Onirim]

[Vice]

Maybe some kind of animation effect could play for zoom out operations as well to help clarify that alignment as well. Animations for both panning and zooming are something I have been considering.

[PaulB]

One of these may not be related to the subject is the subjecct is just the Nav console but I'll list both anyway (things I can think of at the moment - their may be others but I have to "chaw" on the ideas for a few days before some of them come to mind).

(1) I would like when viewing the Nav Map (zoomed or unzoomed) in nay of the modes (normal, territory, economy) to be able when the mouse is clicked or positioned on any system for there to be a popup (like when you mouse over a windows Sys Tray item like the Time) that would tell you the Threat level of the system (Good, Fair, Moderate Hostile) and possible a little other general type info similar to the System Description in the EM Documentation (maybe ~% of Alliance to Federation & other factions). It would be nice, but may be asking too much, if the Threat level & % levels could be updated as the player improves the levels in each system.
Color coding is nice - but because of my vision is sometimes not as useful as one would like, especially when blending color shades or differing saturation levels.

(2) in the Target List mode it would be nice if you could click on a target ship in the list to Target it rather than have to use the Next Target key to try and cycle through them when there are a lot of ships in the area.

[PaulB]

If part of this discussion is about a 3D mapping similar to Evometrics I would maybe suggest the following.

For any given System, in the console have a series of check boxes to determine what to show in the 3D view, aka,
[] Planets & moons
[] Nebulae clouds
[] Stations
[] Jump Gates
[] Asteriods
etc., etc., and maybe make the default = all.

[PaulB]

I would like to see an "in game" editor for the Nav Map Log where you can Rename items, Drag to a different position in the list, perhaps copy & edit an entry.

I can see where that might not be possible or useful if the Edits couldn't be made to take effect until the game was restarted.

It would kinda need to be the type of thing to "put the game on hold" while editing was being done so nothing serious could be taking place in the game while you were editing the Log.
========================

I'm not sure I can explain this well, but I'd like to see a new Map Log option where you could "load" a "named Route (I'll call it).
For example:
(As it is now, everything in the Log is in the list in whatever order I have entered them or edited them "outside" the game. It can be a bit of a jungle.)
my idea --> named Log entry --> Sapphire>Hidden Pearl
Clicking that entry would load into the New Map Log option a list of navpoints for all the Jumps needed to travel from Sapphire to Hidden Pearl and back to Sapphire via whatever route I had entered.

Essentially what it would do is rather than have all you setups all in one log where you have to scroll through a potential big list is to have Named Routes in the Main Log and the Details of each Route in a seperate area or file to be loaded for that Journey you wish to make and reduce the clutter of having them all in one big Log file.
Kinda like a Relational Database.
You load the Route then select each Jump in the Route to the destination and back as you need them.
So it would really I think require a Dual Log, One with Important Nav Points and Routes and a Second for Nav Points of each Route
So maybe the new options would be
Map Log and when you choose a Named Route that would open the Route Log

Hope I've made this comprehensible.

[Marvin]

So it would really I think require a Dual Log, One with Important Nav Points and Routes and a Second for Nav Points of each Route....

Or clicking on the Nav Log option would bring up a secondary menu whereby the player could select a category of his own design ... the number of possible categories being equal to the length of the Log window.

[Nigel_Strange]

I would like the ability to view a map distant regions. If I visit an area, I would like to be able to look at that part of the map later. For example, if I'm in Sapphire, but I've been to Cerulean, then I would like to be able to click Cerulean on the quadrant map and then zoom in to the objects within Cerulean.

Also, I would like a smooth transition from nav map to quadrant map, ideally there being no real difference except zoom level. I should be able to zoom out of the current sector and see systems within "sensor range," but my computer should also be able to maintain a memory of places that I have been, so as I zoom out, I should be able to see more and more systems, connected by gates.

Example. I'm out exploring and I find a system that is not on any of the maps. I want to go back there later, but I can't remember exactly where it was. I should be able to zoom out, recenter the map to where I thought it was, find it, and then zoom in to it. The nav computer "remembers" everything that I have discovered.

Gates from one region to another should be linked by faint lines at all zoom levels, so I can see where the gate goes (so long as it is either a known gate or a gate that I have been through).

3d rotation is nice, just to get a different view, but when the mouse is released, it could snap back to orthogonal view for precision plotting.

Finally, if I see an object that is right-clickable on the nav map, I should be able to right-click it and go there, even if it is a sector above or below me. This has thrown off more players than I care to contemplate: they can see a system, but they can't get to it because they didn't rotate to see the Z axis. On the one hand, it's nice to see that systems are staggered a little bit off the ecliptic plane. On the other hand, it's annoying when this minor deviation in one axis means that you can't simply jump there without fiddling with map rotation. The computer should be "smart" enough to know that when you right-click on a station or gate, that you want to jump directly to it, even if it means jumping one or two sectors above or below the ecliptic.

[Skylee]

Hello !
My first suggestion, thinking about many new features that the nav map could implement in the future, is to have a bigger nav panel, I know there is a "zoomed" version of the map but the navigation computer is a vital system in our ship so maybe can be a good choice as first step to expand the navigation panel to the whole windshield rather than the current square on the right of the screen.
This could immediatly help for some better view issues, and gives the space for all the future features in plan (3dmap, more info on the screen, ships, waypoint paths...etc)

[Skylee]

One last thing as a rookie pilot who I am, that would be useful for critical combat situation to have an "emergency jump" to call, this could be completely navcom-managed just to avoid jumping into planets/stars (...or maybe not...that's the risk of Emergency-Jump )and will move the player in a random location (within the current sector/fulcrum range area...?)

something like "in case of emergency call the E-Jump"

[Edited on 1-8-2014 by Skylee]

[Major Grubert]

something between EM_Tool and IFoS

good scale (emtool)
record place my ship have been (emtool)
move the map the way i want, zoom, turn, and so on (ifos)
notes/infos user input for all bodies (both)
add bodies as they are found (both)


for me, bodies on a map dont need animation at all, only precise scale position and infos about the place if available

[CS-ACI-]

Hello,

This is one of those not in the box ideas.

A history tool for a pilots travel. Does not need to be extensive, just covering 5 - 10 last jumps from system too system.

I know we have the map log, but an-auto log for when you forget to add a point.

Steve.

[Marvin]

something like "in case of emergency call the E-Jump"

Try using Alt+F2 ... your ship will make a maximum jump in the direction you're ship is pointed.

Speaking of a bigger nav panel, it would be nice if I could toggle the right-hand monitor between Targeting Info and the Nav Map. That way, I could travel long distances while both looking out the HUD/windscreen and, at the same time, keeping an eye on the space around me.

[Busch]

IIRC, one of the many 'tool tips' in Legends was a recommendation to plot a nav point/jump point prior to engaging in combat - aka: 'emergency jump point'. I think this should be left up to 'piloting skills', rather than being made a feature/function of the Nav Con.

[Nigel_Strange]

As a general rule, it is a good idea to set an escape nav point when you go into combat. Combat veterans should know this.

Marvin: while I really like your idea for using the right MFD for a nav map, I fear it might be too small to provide much detail.

However...it WOULD be nice if you could get an alert (maybe even with a sound) when your sensors pick up a system object (star, planet, station or whatever) within sensor range (8 or 10 sectors, I believe). Obviously, you should be able to turn this feature on or off as you don't need this information unless you are in deep space. It might be a useful product that you can purchase in a station to add to your ship.

Or, maybe this could be something that the Navigator does for you: alerts you about large bodies beyond the current sector.

[Edited on 8-1-2014 by Nigel_Strange]

[Marvin]

Either option would be a good addition to navigation, Nigel.