Capital ship destruction...

[Vice]

Based on feedback I've received, this option is being made available for voting as a number of players have indicated capital ships are too easy to destroy. Please vote for the direction you would prefer. If changed, it would be applied via stronger shielding and tougher armor.

This is considering that capital ships have been made to be able to defend themselves against each other much more effectively, generally requiring the player to attack with anti-capital ship weapons or tactics to be more involved in their destruction (which may be too powerful at this point). Capital ship vs capital ship damage levels were dialed back based on feedback and balance metrics. Too often, players could sit back and do nothing while the cap ships battled it out, more of a roll the dice and watch prospect than a significant interactive gameplay element. Since enough players indicated that this made capital ship engagements non-interactive and they wanted to play a much more significant role in their destruction, cap ship shields and armor as well as weapon damage tables were adjusted significantly to the point that two capital ships were pretty well protected against each other. However, it may be too easy for the player to destroy a capital ship directly, please vote for changes you might like to see and post comments.

[Nubarus]

I feel that the shield and armor are not really the issue here, it's their lack of defense vs smaller ships.

If you take a look at a game like freespace for instance the capital ships have a range of anti capital ship as well as anti fighter/bomber weapons.

Their anti capital ship arsenal is composed of Torpedo launchers, beam cannons and heavy laser turrets.
Their anti fighter/bomber arsenal is composed of flak cannons, missile launchers and anti fighter beam cannons.

What could be an idea is to beef up their defensive weapons and add tactical torpedoes to the game to tacle capital ships with but without blowing everything to the next dimention with them nuclear fulcrums we have now.

There is no inbetween in this game, you either have the single target missiles or giant overkill fulcrums of mass destruction.

With more tactical weapons for precision strikes where you can take out turrets, shield generators and subsystems with missiles and cannonfire and then bring in the torpedoes to deliver the final blow will make it more interesting to take em on as well, especially in multiplayer.

In freespace you really need good tactics to take out a capital ship and real teamwork is essential, this will make it a lot more fun to take em on.

In freespace I am truly scared of capital ships and wait for some backup to take em on, either AI or other players.

So if possible change the way the ai ships attack capital ships in a more tactical way and/or add orders to tell them to do so.
Give the Capital ships more tactical defense weapons vs smaller ships.
Add destroyable cannon, beam, missile and torpedo turrets.
Add shield generators.
Add tactical torpedoes with less mass destruction so you can cripple and eventually destroy capital ships.

I know it's asking for a lot but in the end it will make team effort play way more interesting and a new challenge to face in the game.

Adding a thinker hide on the capital ships will only change one thing, it will take longer to destroy it, people get annoyed and will then just blast em with a fulcrum to get it over with making it boring to take on the capitals.
People will then either avoid em or take the easy way out and bring a fulcrum.

[SeeJay]

I agree with Nubarus here.

Give the Cap ships better defensive weapons to increase difficulty if possible.

[DennyMala]

The drawback is that harder to attack means almost invulnerable with a fighter escort as you'll get damaged and will be unable to get back for a second pass in a timely manner.

I agree this will tend to make attacking a cap ship a group effort and I support this. But what for SP players?

Before beefing up defences or cap ship compbat capabilities, we need to accomodate the weapons needed to confront a cap ship with a chance of success. The gap between fighters missiles and cannons/beams and cap attack missiles and cannon/beams should be closed and this may be an entire new chapter for the game. An interesting one too.

The attacking force will have to specialize in roles as some will take on the figters and a cpuple will ferry in the heavy hitters for the cap ship.

As of now it's only a matter of picking the right tectic and cap ships are a piece of cake. Do it wrong and your'e busted more than half of the times. I don't feel this as to be weak on the cap ship side.... just that we learnt the weak spot and exploited it.

Probebly this would all be resolved by more variations in the scenarios or behavious of the cap ship so that a single strategy don't always win.

[Edited on 11/2/2013 by DennyMala]

[Nubarus]

You can always lure the escorts away and take em out and then attack the capital ship.

As for single player, this is why I talked about making options to give specific orders for fleet AI because let's face it, if you want to bust capital ships you should do so with hired wingmen instead of being able to do it on your own with normal weapons.
If you can do it by yourself fairly easy it totally defeats the purpose of a capital ship in the first place.

An aircraft carrier or a battle cruiser cannot be deafted by a single airplane using regular weapons so why should this be the case way way in the future?
You would think people learn from lessons leared in the past.

If I would live in the Evochron universe and they would offer me a job on a capital ship I would say yeah, you go ahead and do it yourself mate.
you might as well just wear a bomb jacket and blow yourself up as soon as the badguys show up.

[-splosives-]

My two suggestions

-Give the cap ship particle cannons greater range, make sure all sides are defended.
-Make the flak cannons do more damage against shields.

those two things should make them a lot more difficult to kill.

I remember cap ships in arvoch alliance to do a lot more damage to me, maybe that's a good way to start.

[Edited on 2-11-2013 by -splosives-]

[Capt_Caveman]

I killed a few cap ships last night just too check.

I found if I target weapons, charge in fast and open fire, the weapons are dead in no time at all and then i can kill the cap ship at my Leisure

it seems easier than some civi a.i.

[Edited on 2-11-2013 by capt_cronic]

[Triton83]

I vote for much tougher capital ship.

In compensation I'd like a new torpedo capable of dealing serious damages to a capital ship hull, but not to destroy it. The torpedo shouldn't have an area of effect (or maybe a small one) in order to be usable in coop MP contracts. The torpedo should be useless against fighters, either being expensive and slow, or simply being lockable to capital ships only. Thereby pilots could specialize between anti-fighter or anti-capital ship equipment. The reward for contracts including capital ships could be higher to compensate the torpedoes cost.

[Maarschalk]

I voted no, to keep it the same. Even a lonely Battle Cruiser at sea has it's weak spots and can be taken down by a single submarine.

Here we are talking about Space Battles where attack from any angle is possible!

The game is already difficult enough for new players. It would increase the difficulty for new players to gain rank and progress and it is already much harder than before!

Everything becomes much easier for the Veterans once they figure things out and so they become bored and wan't more difficulty.

So say the difficulty is increased again and the Experts find tactical ways again to destroy the capital ships quickly because they learn and find the new weak spots!
So they become bored again and wan't more difficulty while the new players get stuck and not being able to advance!

To make a game playable, balanced, exciting and fun for a broad range of players new and veterans alike there has to be chalanges, weakspots to be discovered.
Think back when you started as a new player in a Talon, not knowing how to take down a capital ship, how difficult it was! Some find the solution to destroying capital ships faster then others. Just like finding a tactical way to jump through a worm hole inside a black hole, even this is easier once you know how than destroying a Capital ship.

Do not increase the difficulty because as a player you are bored and find things easier now that you know how the game works!
If you wan't more of a challange than do PvP battles with the Expert Players!......

[-splosives-]

I voted no, to keep it the same. Even a lonely Battle Cruiser at sea has it's weak spots and can be taken down by a single submarine.

Here we are talking about Space Battles where attack from any angle is possible!

The game is already difficult enough for new players. It would increase the difficulty for new players to gain rank and progress and it is already much harder than before!

Everything becomes much easier for the Veterans once they figure things out and so they become bored and wan't more difficulty.

So say the difficulty is increased again and the Experts find tactical ways again to destroy the capital ships quickly because they learn and find the new weak spots!
So they become bored again and wan't more difficulty while the new players get stuck and not being able to advance!

To make a game playable, balanced, exciting and fun for a broad range of players new and veterans alike there has to be chalanges, weakspots to be discovered.
Think back when you started as a new player in a Talon, not knowing how to take down a capital ship, how difficult it was! Some find the solution to destroying capital ships faster then others. Just like finding a tactical way to jump through a worm hole inside a black hole, even this is easier once you know how than destroying a Capital ship.

Do not increase the difficulty because as a player you are bored and find things easier now that you know how the game works!
If you wan't more of a challange than do PvP battles with the Expert Players!......

You can get Legendary/fadm rank without killing a single capital ship.
And I also think new players shouldn't be able to kill cap ships.
Cap ships should be something to be feared, not something to laugh at.

[SeeJay]

Also, players that play SP and has no challenge need harder Cap ships!;)

You can always hire a fleet if you have problems as a new player.

[Nubarus]

Right now the capital ships are just a huge chunk of wasted metals and manhours. Their defensive capabilities are so puny and little bady defending his lollypop is more of a challenge.

The only defense against small ships are missile launchers and some weak flak cannon that barely does any dmg and just throws you around for a bit.

[kb5ixd]

I voted no, to keep it the same. Even a lonely Battle Cruiser at sea has it's weak spots and can be taken down by a single submarine.

Here we are talking about Space Battles where attack from any angle is possible!

The game is already difficult enough for new players. It would increase the difficulty for new players to gain rank and progress and it is already much harder than before!

Everything becomes much easier for the Veterans once they figure things out and so they become bored and wan't more difficulty.

So say the difficulty is increased again and the Experts find tactical ways again to destroy the capital ships quickly because they learn and find the new weak spots!
So they become bored again and wan't more difficulty while the new players get stuck and not being able to advance!

To make a game playable, balanced, exciting and fun for a broad range of players new and veterans alike there has to be chalanges, weakspots to be discovered.
Think back when you started as a new player in a Talon, not knowing how to take down a capital ship, how difficult it was! Some find the solution to destroying capital ships faster then others. Just like finding a tactical way to jump through a worm hole inside a black hole, even this is easier once you know how than destroying a Capital ship.

Do not increase the difficulty because as a player you are bored and find things easier now that you know how the game works!
If you wan't more of a challange than do PvP battles with the Expert Players!......

I have to agree with this ^^^^
Also - I think a lot of folks see this as a question for the guilds/clans/masses.
I feel folks should and need to understand how many of us do fly alone.
I have never went after a Capitol Ship, it just didn’t seem like the ‘smart’ thing to do.

You got to love it, folks come in to the game, join a guild/clan, get free credits, free advice and free back-up as needed – then say the game is too easy.

[Edited on 2-11-2013 by kb5ixd]

[Maarschalk]

I voted no, to keep it the same. Even a lonely Battle Cruiser at sea has it's weak spots and can be taken down by a single submarine.

Here we are talking about Space Battles where attack from any angle is possible!

The game is already difficult enough for new players. It would increase the difficulty for new players to gain rank and progress and it is already much harder than before!

Everything becomes much easier for the Veterans once they figure things out and so they become bored and wan't more difficulty.

So say the difficulty is increased again and the Experts find tactical ways again to destroy the capital ships quickly because they learn and find the new weak spots!
So they become bored again and wan't more difficulty while the new players get stuck and not being able to advance!

To make a game playable, balanced, exciting and fun for a broad range of players new and veterans alike there has to be chalanges, weakspots to be discovered.
Think back when you started as a new player in a Talon, not knowing how to take down a capital ship, how difficult it was! Some find the solution to destroying capital ships faster then others. Just like finding a tactical way to jump through a worm hole inside a black hole, even this is easier once you know how than destroying a Capital ship.

Do not increase the difficulty because as a player you are bored and find things easier now that you know how the game works!
If you wan't more of a challange than do PvP battles with the Expert Players!......

You can get Legendary/fadm rank without killing a single capital ship.
And I also think new players shouldn't be able to kill cap ships.
Cap ships should be something to be feared, not something to laugh at.

1. Yes, you can but it takes the fun out of the game if you can not take on Capital ships as a new player and discover the weakspots and the fun to be able to do multiple waypoint battle missions involving Capships as it is part of the IMG quest as well!

2. New players can not kill Cap ships, they do not know how yet and fear them already, unless they discover their weak spots or are made aware of them in a Spoiler.!....

[Cato]

I agree that the capital ships should be harder to kill (it's almost silly how easy they are), but I don't think that making them physically tougher alone is *quite* the answer. As Maarschalk pointed out, we shouldn't be catering to the bored veteran players exclusively, but we shouldn't be making them such a snap for a new player to come in and smoke 2 or 3 of them in one sitting after getting fragged a couple of times. Killing a capital ship shouldn't just require a gigantic missile or sitting in the same blind spot long enough, and seeing the satisfying KA-BOOM when you do kill one should make you whoop with joy and leap out of your seat, spilling your Mountain Dew all over your keyboard.


My suggestions to make the capital ships more threatening:

1) Make the escorts not so stupid; i.e., have them actually behave as escorts rather than flies buzzing around a piece of meat. They should stick with their CAP and protect their quarry, rather than rabidly skitter off after the first thing they see as a juicy target.

2) Give the big ships a bigger reserve of flak so they don't run out too soon. They should be able to hold an entire wing of fighters at bay at least long enough to get their escort back - one fighter should hardly pose a threat even without an escort

3) Have more variety and specialization in cap-ships. Big dreadnought-type battleships should be the superheavy boomsticks designed to kill other capital ships, stations, and bombard planets from orbit, thus, they should have giant, powerful, very slow-firing weapons ill-suited to swatting flies. These ships should be REALLY tough and require the big torpedos to bring down, but it should be easy to get in close to one that doesn't have an escort. On the flip side, an anti-fighter frigate or destroyer should be a sight that causes a fighter pilot's hind end to clench significantly, as these would be bristling with fast-tracking barrage weapons or quick missiles that can bring down hordes of incoming fighters. To use the maritime example, think a sub commander seeing a destroyer. It shouldn't be impossible to kill them, as they'd be much more lightly armored, but they should pose a much greater threat due to their weapons loadout and maneuverability.


My intended point is that capital ships shouldn't be nigh impossible to kill, but they should be enough of a challenge that taking one on alone would be suicide for all but the best pilots.

[-splosives-]

My intended point is that capital ships shouldn't be nigh impossible to kill, but they should be enough of a challenge that taking one on alone would be suicide for all but the best pilots.

Very true

[Sinbad]

An excellent discussion here... thanks Vice for stimulating these ideas for the game!

My own suggestions are a combination of some of what has already been said plus a little extra:

1. Defeating Capital ships should require more tactical planning: gun turrets to be taken out, heavily defended shield generators to be taken out, comm systems to be taken out with the effect of making the escort fighters more disorganised.

2. A new type of contract similar to the escort contract but with the countdown timer related to the enemy cap ship. "Enemy Cap ship is passing through the area. Prevent it from reaching it's next jump point." Here you could take out its (heavily defended) engines first then bring down shields before it has time to repair and make an escape.

3. As said by others, enemy escort fighters should be more concerned about sticking close to their Cap ship. Hence taking out the Cap ship comms sub-system could disorient the fighters making them easier targets.

4. Defeating Cap ships should be more difficult in some war zones and easier in others. Maybe some war zones are closer to Vonari HQ and so have a stronger presence, whilst other war zones are further away and only have limited forces available. This would make it easier on beginner players and still provide a more difficult option for veteran players.

[DennyMala]

A weapon suite specialized for cap ship would be a great addition and will make harder cap ships more manageable.

There is no need to make them expensive or lockable only on caps.... high punch at slow speed and poor maneuvrability makes them virtually unable to hit a moving fighter. If it stands still bracing for impact.... well...that's another story but it's its pick.

I vote for this solution: harder cap ships but only with adequate specialized weapons (cannons and beams too if possibile as it will add to the roles of the flight group)

[Zach]

I haven't really had much, if any real experience with combat vs a capital ship. At least not beyond taking a contract and coming across larger ships that I just can't seem to damage without throwing a fulcrum at them.

But, I think this opens the possibility for broader revamps to other combat areas as well. I don't think I am qualified to speak to the armor/shields vs defenses debate, but it seems to me that quite a few people feel they lack the appropriate defenses, as opposed to needing thicker skin.

I think that sounds reasonable, and I also think adding a new missle/torpedo type would be nice as well. But also I don't think this new type should be purchaseable at just any old station. In fact I think it should be easier/cheaper to craft them in the Weapons Lab, while still being available for rare purchase at high prices in very few systems.

As it stands now, I don't craft missles and nobody I have talked to seems to think its worth it.

But I think there are lots of possibilities for new kinds of ballistic ranged weapons. We could get a quicker charging variant of the Exalibur that can target multiple point defenses or subsystems, but only gives you 4 missles instead of 8 for instance. They could be low yield but perhaps possess an EMP charge strong enough to disable the systems for 15 or 20 seconds.

You could also require such a missle only be mountable on specific, heavier / slow frames. Yes, what I am saying is actually give us bomber class ships, or ships suitable to bomber roles, such as the Starmaster, or Chimera. Also I think at the same time, allowing the player to hire up to 2 A.I wingmen online (irrespective of the proposed changes being discussed) would be pretty nice. I know that is probably a can of worms I don't want to open, but its nice when no one is around or you just want a little extra protection, or to be by yourself for a while (but stay in the social atmosphere).

Perhaps a "grouping" system could be implimented as part of that, whereby players would have to group to share contracts, and there would be a limit imposed on how many A.I wingmen to Player ratio is allowed.

But more to the point, I think it would change the dynamics of online battles. It leaves the possibility for "Fleet" engagements, where players have clear roles and goals. Bombers take out the Cap ships, while Fighters intercept enemy wings and protect bombers. I realize we don't have a lot of players online to always make this work, but who knows, maybe it would attract more players? Or maybe not.. But compensating by giving us a small amount of A.I Wingmen in Multiplayer could help solve that issue as well.


Well those are my thoughts.. A bit broader than what Vice was asking, but it all feels related to me.

[Edited on 2-11-2013 by Zach]

[Marvin]

3. As said by others, enemy escort fighters should be more concerned about sticking close to their Cap ship. Hence taking out the Cap ship comms sub-system could disorient the fighters making them easier targets.

Actually, this is pretty much the opposite of how navies protect their ships. Admittedly, fire-control computers might someday be capable of sorting friend from foe and targeting only foe. But, if that were to happen, jammers or decoys would be employed to fool the computers. Consequently, even in the future, it's likely that a carrier's escort would remain outside a specified range, leaving close-in defense to the carrier's own weapons.

[Triton83]

Actually, this is pretty much the opposite of how navies protect their ships. Admittedly, fire-control computers might someday be capable of sorting friend from foe and targeting only foe. But, if that were to happen, jammers or decoys would be employed to fool the computers. Consequently, even in the future, it's likely that a carrier's escort would remain outside a specified range, leaving close-in defense to the carrier's own weapons.

Real life missiles have far more range than EM missiles

[Marvin]

Real life missiles have far more range than EM missiles

Relatively speaking.

[Busch]

I'd say leave well enough alone with conditions. Buff up the armor or shields a bit, add a few more flakpanzers, maybe hire more/better trained and accurate gunners for the point-defense weapons. Then give us some thing to work with that's not a WMD, but a photon/nuclear torpedo/station-detonator kind of mid-range, mid-yield/effect weapon-of-lesser-destruction. Something a pilot in SP can use to good effect, with maybe the use/employment of wingmen as a pre-requisite/condition/ROE. I am very much liking that the escort mission Cap ships are now providing a flak curtain for entertaining/distracting the AI bad guys who make an appearance. Makes my dismal efforts at protection look like I'm shooting fish in a barrel with a Remington 1740.

[sundalo]

I feel that the shield and armor are not really the issue here, it's their lack of defense vs smaller ships.

If you take a look at a game like freespace for instance the capital ships have a range of anti capital ship as well as anti fighter/bomber weapons.

Their anti capital ship arsenal is composed of Torpedo launchers, beam cannons and heavy laser turrets.
Their anti fighter/bomber arsenal is composed of flak cannons, missile launchers and anti fighter beam cannons.

What could be an idea is to beef up their defensive weapons and add tactical torpedoes to the game to tacle capital ships with but without blowing everything to the next dimention with them nuclear fulcrums we have now.

There is no inbetween in this game, you either have the single target missiles or giant overkill fulcrums of mass destruction.

With more tactical weapons for precision strikes where you can take out turrets, shield generators and subsystems with missiles and cannonfire and then bring in the torpedoes to deliver the final blow will make it more interesting to take em on as well, especially in multiplayer.

In freespace you really need good tactics to take out a capital ship and real teamwork is essential, this will make it a lot more fun to take em on.

In freespace I am truly scared of capital ships and wait for some backup to take em on, either AI or other players.

So if possible change the way the ai ships attack capital ships in a more tactical way and/or add orders to tell them to do so.
Give the Capital ships more tactical defense weapons vs smaller ships.
Add destroyable cannon, beam, missile and torpedo turrets.
Add shield generators.
Add tactical torpedoes with less mass destruction so you can cripple and eventually destroy capital ships.

I know it's asking for a lot but in the end it will make team effort play way more interesting and a new challenge to face in the game.

Adding a thinker hide on the capital ships will only change one thing, it will take longer to destroy it, people get annoyed and will then just blast em with a fulcrum to get it over with making it boring to take on the capitals.
People will then either avoid em or take the easy way out and bring a fulcrum.

QFT. Nubarus, best example of how a cap ship should be, the cap ship fights of freespace 1 and especially 2 gave you that adrenaline rush and fear when you attack them. Those were the best cap ship fights ever in a space combat game hands down.

[Edited on 2-11-2013 by sundalo]

[Munshine]

I voted no.
Yes they are relatively easy to destroy for some experimented pilots playing together knowing their weak spot. But it's still a tad difficult for a player alone even in single player mode.