Impossible to win a single fight anymore

Daedalus · Post by **Daedalus** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:25 pm

Hi!

I have returned to evochron since the update and I'm in a big trouble: every single fight contract I accept end in a quick death:

system: olympus
Frame: vector
engine:3
wing:3
shield:4
particle weapon: starguard
beam:metal vapor
missiles:viper.

mission: every fight mission
enemies: 2 sentinel.

never managed to kill at least one ship.One of my tactics is: When I come in the fight zone, I boost reverse and I try to be at firing range when flying backward. But they stay out of range, and when I reduce my speed, They hit me 1 or 2 times and my system is down, cant shoot anymore, speed reduced etc.
5s/-5w doesnt change the outcome when they come at me.

3 days and not a single fight mission finished. Not a dang mission. Not even a kill. for 12000 creds, having the most difficult fight I have ever had, thats a shame.

[Edited on 12-26-2012 by thetiebers]

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:35 pm

Combat is much harder now but not impossible. You have to know in your case your weapons range!
You need Weapons with a longer range then your enemy so you can hit them from a save distance without being hit by them. This takes maneuvering skills of speed angle of attack and watching your enemies speeds and pay close attention to their distances from you and avoid getting into their firing range! The Weapons Lab is a Good place to modify the range of your particle cannons, moddifying one that already has a long range will help greatly!....

Scavenger4711 · Post by **Scavenger4711** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:40 pm

I know how you feel. Once I even was able to beat about 6 ships by myself (and a perhaps rather cheap tactic) but now with the new AI a lot has changed.
I guess the tactic you're describing won't work anymore as nicely as it did before, because now enemies sometimes accelerate up to 3500 units (mph? I don't know).

What I'd recommend is a pain in the butt, but I'd say: visit the "easier" systems and prepare to learn fighting again. I know it's a pain, as I said, but I can't think of anything else.
The AI just behaves completely different, therefore new tactics have to be learned and used on them.

zex · Post by **zex** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:19 am

You should hire a fleet or come online and fight with people until you get your credits up. Fighting alone without firepower is not fun.

CaptJack92a · Post by **CaptJack92a** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:38 am

I like to keep a full set of missiles on me before heading into combat. With heightened shield systems and stronger weapons I am usually able to hold my own and take them out one by one. Try using different combinations of ship parts and weapons such as missiles.

KingArthur · Post by **KingArthur** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:15 am

Like EVERYTHING in The EXPANSION, It All Boils Down To "ENERGY MANAGEMENT".

CaptJack92a · Post by **CaptJack92a** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:16 am

From post: 153191, Topic: tid=10240, author=KingArthur wrote:Like EVERYTHING in The EXPANSION, It All Boils Down To "ENERGY MANAGEMENT".

Oh yeah, I have my free fingers on [ and ] all the time.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:07 am

From post: 153159, Topic: tid=10240, author=Scavenger4711 wrote:I know how you feel. Once I even was able to beat about 6 ships by myself (and a perhaps rather cheap tactic) but now with the new AI a lot has changed.
I guess the tactic you're describing won't work anymore as nicely as it did before, because now enemies sometimes accelerate up to 3500 units (mph? I don't know).

What I'd recommend is a pain in the butt, but I'd say: visit the "easier" systems and prepare to learn fighting again. I know it's a pain, as I said, but I can't think of anything else.
The AI just behaves completely different, therefore new tactics have to be learned and used on them.

They only accelerate up to 3500 to catch up with you!. Once they are in firing range they slow down! I have been able to handle 12 hostiles by myself in an Evoch-E using only guns and cannons using the tactics I described above! So it should be easy for him to handle just 2 having the right weapons range and control of your speed and target distance!.....

hank · Post by **hank** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:14 pm

ditto to above

I bought EM a few months ago when it was still 1.86xx (so I'm a relative newb). When 2.xx came out I had just achieved captain status + some. After 2.xx came out I had to re-evaluate strategy and tactics because the combat changed significantly (imho). I recently made it to commodore status so I know its possible to beat the red AI devils with new ideas and equipment/weapons combinations.

Good luck.

[Edited on 12-26-2012 by hank]

MiaZ · Post by **MiaZ** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:39 pm

From post: 153212, Topic: tid=10240, author=Maarschalk wrote:
They only accelerate up to 3500 to catch up with you!. Once they are in firing range they slow down! I have been able to handle 12 hostiles by myself in an Evoch-E using only guns and cannons using the tactics I described above! So it should be easy for him to handle just 2 having the right weapons range and control of your speed and target distance!.....

I don't know about the, "they only accelerate up to 3500 to catch up with you" part.

Seems for me most often they accelerate up to 3500 flying away from me.
If i chase him, he does fast wide circles, so I stop chasing, target a red closer, then he
sneaky comes back at me on my six. I love the new AI

Post by **Marvin** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:05 pm

If I'm where I need to take on more than four at a time, I do it in a sector with a planet ... then either do planetside contracts or drag the AI down with me.

Busch · Post by **Busch** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:03 pm

Do what ever it takes to bring your ships' equipment up to top-of-the-line. C-3 Repair, C-5 Shield Bttry, C-5 Fulcrum drive (or better), Cannon Relay/Heatsinks, and etc. Some of us, tyro and veteran alike, use a primary weapons combo that includes a low-end/longer-ranged particle cannon, coupled with a higher-end beam cannon. Managing the shield/weapons power bias all the while. You can make up your own mind about how this may fit your combat "style" and experience. "Favorite" civ ship frames, engine and shield combinations are many and varied. Most all can be quite effective in combat. I don't take on combat missions in anything less than a Mirage/Raven-class civ frame, as the frame/build resources and capabilities start "opening up" with the Level 4 frames. Next, choose "wisely" the location where you take on the combat missions outside of the CZ/WZ's. In almost every "accessible" system, there is one trade station where the Navy ace-kill, Miner anti-pirate patrol, and Navy escort contracts yield bad guys as pointedly stated in the mission-brief. Harris Mining Station in Oly Primus, Starport 1103 in Talison, and Starport 1107 in Cerulean are good examples of this. 4 bad guys as advertized and thats predominately what you get. Oh, there is the occassional addition to "the swarm", but few and far between. Some of my combat strategies include taking out the meanest, ugliest bad guy first and then tickeling the rest with my primarys until thay die laughing - mostly 'til their dead any ways.

One-at-a-time approach. The closest bad guy to you can hurt you first, the worst, and the longest. Run-away/re-engage at your leisure, not theirs. Make them angry enough to chase you, instead of you chasing them. and then, stay out of their range but inside of yours. Turn in to the "death spiral", just like managing a slide on an icy road with marginal traction. Escort contracts can be a real bear now, but there is a certain "knack" to completing them successfully. They ain't whut theys used to be, but can be had if'n ye jist pays attention to your "closest" target.

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:09 pm

It's harder, yes, but still doable and I haven't even started messing around with the Weapons Lab yet. Learning to fight all over again is challenging and exciting to me.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:30 pm

From post: 153245, Topic: tid=10240, author=MiaZ wrote:
From post: 153212, Topic: tid=10240, author=Maarschalk wrote:
They only accelerate up to 3500 to catch up with you!. Once they are in firing range they slow down! I have been able to handle 12 hostiles by myself in an Evoch-E using only guns and cannons using the tactics I described above! So it should be easy for him to handle just 2 having the right weapons range and control of your speed and target distance!.....
I don't know about the, "they only accelerate up to 3500 to catch up with you" part.

Seems for me most often they accelerate up to 3500 flying away from me.
If i chase him, he does fast wide circles, so I stop chasing, target a red closer, then he
sneaky comes back at me on my six. I love the new AI

Yes, they can catch up with you quickly if you fly one of the brick(heavy and slow) frames! You'll be a sitting duck for the more agile heavy armored enemy. That is why your best bet to take on more than four enemies at the same time is a well armoured fast and agile ship so you can speed up quickly to get out of the firing range of the enemy and keep a safe distance. Yes and managing your energy is very important as others pointed out!...

XenonSurf · Post by **XenonSurf** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:37 pm

Hi,

I'm also having big troubles in combat, not with top-notch but with decent equipment , class 2 weapons and Cannon Rechargers (doubles the fire rate). On planetside, it takes me very long shooting down a single fighter that stays 100% health for very long, even shooting him at close range with the x5 energy on the weapons; then, suddenlly his health goes down, 80, 60, 20, bummm... It takes very long, whatever 1st weapon combination you use. In the meantime, the enemy's friends are comming in making me lose the mission most of the time

How can you tell the enemy shields go down? Is there a way?

Also, the same occurs in the Tutorial: It takes me 10 minutes real-time to shoot down the training drone with my 1st weapon, be it close or far away. So, is it me and my aiming, or do I miss something really important

XenonS

[Edited on 12-26-2012 by XenonSurf]

[Edited on 12-26-2012 by XenonSurf]

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:56 pm

The Target rectangle of the enemy ships tells you the health of the enemy ship also you can see the health of your target in your Bottom Right HUD Tactical Display!
My Advice is shoot your beam weapon first till the enemies shield/health indicators on the target rectangle turn red then switch to particle cannons only to finish him off!...

XenonSurf · Post by **XenonSurf** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:12 pm

Hi Maars,
thanks for the tips! The rectangle, yes, I'll take a look next time.

But else: that's what I did already: I always thought that using laser weapons will degrade the shields (the particle will be rather useless). Once the shields are down, you switch to particle with N or you use both weapons, and this should go. But, in the tutorial and in combat I take ages to get a kill, unless I use my missiles.
When using lasers, I can clearly see how they hit the enemy's shield: there is a blue glowing; after 10 times shooting at full energy, still my enemy's health is at 100%.

[**EDITED**]

I see the problem now: after using the lasers you have LITTLE time to use your particle cannon before the enemy's shield is re-building again !!!
It's all as it should be.

XenonS

[Edited on 12-26-2012 by XenonSurf]

zex · Post by **zex** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:27 pm

It is tough not to get discouraged at first. I remember that the biggest obstacle that I had to overcome was dealing with multiple ships at once. When you are by yourself, space is cruel. You definitely want to start in systems that offer contracts with no more than 4 enemies at a time. If you are playing single player, hire a fleet - the extra protection is enough to tip the balance in your favor more often than not. If you are online, there are usually many people who are running contracts who you can team up with.

Don't get discouraged. You aren't going to be an ace combat pilot right away, but you are going to get better and better in every conflict. You are going to learn tactics that work for you and you will develop a fighting style. Soon, your name will be spoken in whispers amongst the reds, and their hands will shake at the controls when you appear on their target list.

I remember that another thing that I liked to do was hang out at a station in hostile space. You can practice against ships around the station without being in a contract situation. There is no penalty for death, short of a kick to the ego, so just keep at it.

I hope to see you guys out there in fighting form! This is a time of war, and all factions could use eager combat pilots!

DennyMala · Post by **DennyMala** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:04 am

More than anything, change your tactic Daedalus.

You're playing bait to the enemy and when that was a little brainless and following you in a beeline it was a good pick but now they can just use more speed and maneuver to take advantage of the others. In a word now it's a big no go.

You gotta take the fight into your hands and be the one that hunt.

KingArthur · Post by **KingArthur** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:00 pm

DENNY is RIGHT. DISREGARD the Ship Going 3250+ and CONCENTRATE on the CLOSEST RED. The SHIP DOING 3250+ WILL RETURN.

Post by **Marvin** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:03 pm

From post: 153366, Topic: tid=10240, author=KingArthur wrote:The SHIP DOING 3250+ WILL RETURN.

So keep one eye on your radar and make quick work of that closest target. Especially if the returning Red is using a kinetic weapon.

Major Grubert · Post by **Major Grubert** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:18 pm

cycle R and T key for locate enemy by distance speed and frame

keep correct speed and distance, enough to be ready to rush one of them, not that much for lose control and agility (i fly a massive frame)

keep good missiles/guns and learn how they work

new Ia is much fun to fight than old one

zex is right about training in an hostile system, i do that when it's about to test a new load out... no contract needed... you can fly away when you tired bored or half dead

CaptJack92a · Post by **CaptJack92a** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:50 pm

I find it effective also, if you are aware of them before they are, you can launch a larger missile and destroy multiple enemies or at least kill one and badly damage the others.

Post by **Marvin** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:58 pm

I saw something new today. Took a planetside contract, intercepted the Rebel ships ... had half of them attack me and the other half make a run for it (without ever engaging). When I fired missiles at the fleeing AI, they dove for cover behind a range of mountains ... upon which my missiles exploded, harmlessly. The AI then attempted to lure me out into space ... where their numbers gave them the advantage. So cool.

CaptJack92a · Post by **CaptJack92a** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:59 pm

I love improved ai combat!