The need for speed, or the sensation thereof

Galaxian · Post by **Galaxian** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:16 pm

An observation that I've had regarding the sensation of speed relative to stationary objects is that while under 'normal' (throttle main engine) power, it 'feels' slow to me and that having objects reeling past the cockpit windows at mach 5 would add another tasty bit of frosting to the cake of this already 'best in the 'verse' sim...

In my little acorn of a mind, I have this idea the advanced ships of Evochron should be an order of magnitude faster than any current day craft, atmospheric or otherwise. However cruising at full throttle in the Firestar in the vicinity of stationary objects (stations, asteroids, planetary bodies) 'feels' quite a bit slower than the terrestrial jets I fly in .mil sims.

My take on this is that velocity under full main engine power and IDS on should be in the thousands range rather than the hundreds.

More speed would put likely put a bit more workload on the pilot, requiring more throttle/fuel/energy management and requiring more situational awareness to avoid ramming/overshooting things at speed.

It's all relative of course and not a criticism.

Just my opinion FWIW...

[Edited on 1-2-2011 by Galaxian]

GUNSLINGR · Post by **GUNSLINGR** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:04 pm

I felt like this also until I got used to flying without IDS. Just think of IDS as a tool, not the main throttle for the ship.

I hope that helps,
-Gun

Post by **Marvin** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:23 am

IDS uses maneuvering jets. At high speeds, they are ineffective. That's the way they work and the way they should work. Fly past a station at 5,000 while inertial is engaged and you'll get the feel for real speed. Or just point toward a planet and do the same ... afterburner until you hit max speed. Then, when you can see the trees down below, try to slow down before you become a pancake.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:45 am

From post: 99032, Topic: tid=7100, author=Marvin wrote: IDS uses maneuvering jets. At high speeds, they are ineffective. That's the way they work and the way they should work. Fly past a station at 5,000 while inertial is engaged and you'll get the feel for real speed. Or just point toward a planet and do the same ... afterburner until you hit max speed. Then, when you can see the trees down below, try to slow down before you become a pancake.

Tried that with Planet jumping........LOL......

:P:P:P:P:P

Galaxian · Post by **Galaxian** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:02 am

I'd still like to be able to throttle up to and maintain throttle control at speeds greater those currently 'limited' by IDS.

The fact that thrusters are less effective with speed is a given and I don't use IDS as much as inertial as it's too slow most of the time. I mainly use IDS for very low speed work and that's about it.

For combat I use inertial about 90% of the time.

I suppose the thing of it being that I'm constantly bouncing off the AB and would prefer to have real throttle control at speed vs and on/off toggle. It's 'smoother' and I'd have finer control.

Smooth = fast

But maybe that's just 30 years of riding sportbikes talking...

Galaxian · Post by **Galaxian** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:04 pm

Perhaps I can articulate what I'm getting at better by putting it this way:

The heart of the matter is that the 'speed limit' imposed by IDS feels artificially low to me based on my experience and premise of the advanced technologies/hardware involved.

Perhaps raising the IDS 'speed limit' up to some value where the maneuvering thruster performance envelope and fwd/rev velocity have a significant departure.

I'm not sure how this is currently calculated or if it's set by some value, but here's the jist of what I'm getting at:

IDS imposes the 'limiter' when the ship reaches a speed where maneuvering thruster become essentially ineffective and the ship is in danger of departing (IDS) controlled flight. The actual speed would depend on the particular ship frame/engine configuration just as it does now.

Obviously there would be a good deal of 'sliding' involved at the top end of the envelope, but you could throttle back to regain some turning performance.

Additionally, raising the IDS speed limit would mean more 'hands-on' throttle control be required of the pilot as you'd no longer be able to just run around in atmo@full power all the time without getting lit on fire or motoring through asteroid fields at 100% throttle without plowing into something.

You'd still have inertial as needed/preferred, just like it is now. Same with squirting around on the 'burner if you wanted to. This would just give the pilot more options.

[Edited on 1-3-2011 by Galaxian] Fixed grammar and expanded on a thought.

[Edited on 1-3-2011 by Galaxian]

Accountant · Post by **Accountant** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:16 pm

I kind of like the idea of the IDS being raised to a higher level (to, as Galaxian says, some value where IDS starts to truly becomes ineffective). Right now my Starmaster tops out at 400, which makes IDS all but useless except for turn assistance in combat. It would be nice to get at least 1400-1500 out of IDS (would make planet travel faster, too).

This would also have an effect of raising the top speed of AI ships, which would be nice.

Speaking of AI ships, why don't they use afterburner? It would be nice if enemy AI ships would use afterburner to catch up and it would be cool to see friendly AI ships super-cruising to some destination.

-Accountant

Capt_Caveman · Post by **Capt_Caveman** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:38 pm

legends seemed slow to me at first but i got used to it.
Merc is slower than legends and I cant seem to adjust to it either.
higher ids speed limit would be nice. (IMHO)

Hardass · Post by **Hardass** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:44 pm

I think having the IDS variable on an axis, as opposed to just on/off toggle would be the best for control. Then you could adjust how much dampening you wanted. From the current rigid setting, to a much "looser" implementation of the IDS.

Post by **Marvin** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:07 pm

Actually, IDS speed is limited by engine stress ... ergo, the reason behind different class engines. It would be more realistic if, instead of increasing IDS speed, Vice set afterburner time limits (per burst) ... whereby, if you exceeded the length of time on A/B, your engine petered out.

49rTbird · Post by **49rTbird** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:32 pm

From post: 99087, Topic: tid=7100, author=Marvin wrote: Actually, IDS speed is limited by engine stress ... ergo, the reason behind different class engines. It would be more realistic if, instead of increasing IDS speed, Vice set afterburner time limits (per burst) ... whereby, if you exceeded the length of time on A/B, your engine petered out.

This seems to happen with the new afterburner equipment add on.

You get more thrust but only for a limited time.

:(

[Edited on 1-3-2011 by thetiebers]

Post by **Vice** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:14 pm

An adjustable IDS maximum is an interesting idea. A practical way to add such an option would be two key/button controls to increase and decrease its limits. The default would be 1X, then the player could change it up to something like 5X. Here are a few points to consider with such an option though:

- The 'safety' net provided by the IDS would be overridden by settings above 1X. That means you could no longer hold maximum throttle in atmospheres, around asteroid fields (depending on frame/engine type), and in carriers.

- The precision of the speed settings would decrease with greater maximums, so instead of units of maybe 4-12 per throttle step, it could be up to something like 50-100 per step.

Neither of these are too serious, as long as the player is aware of the risks and changes associated with the option. I'll go ahead and try out some prototypes for it.

Galaxian · Post by **Galaxian** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:33 pm

That sounds awesome Vice.

Thanks!

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:15 am

Sounds really cool.

Thanks

Post by **Marvin** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:34 am

I can see it coming ... accidently setting the throttle to x10 while attempting to chat ... all while inside an asteroid field.

Galaxian · Post by **Galaxian** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:51 am

I'm looking forward to it....

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:12 am

LOL....Better train the Engineer and Navigator on the new IDS implementation....Oi...Oi....Oi...Planet, Astroid cave and Blackhole jumping gets a whole different meaning when jumping with IDS on.....

:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P

Post by **Marvin** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:59 am

It'll be like driving on ice.

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:11 am

From post: 99136, Topic: tid=7100, author=Marvin wrote: It'll be like driving on ice.

Then the Swedes will rock at this since it's all snow and ice here!

Hardass · Post by **Hardass** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:02 am

I like the new IDS.

As a wish list... Is it possible to have it affect the horizontal and vertical thrusters the same as throttle?

Accountant · Post by **Accountant** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:11 am

Beautiful, the new IDS is the best of all worlds. Thanks Vice.

Post by **Vice** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:26 am

As a wish list... Is it possible to have it affect the horizontal and vertical thrusters the same as throttle?

Not too feasibly, since the maneuvering thrusters are bound in a way that is different from the throttle driving the main engine. You'd need to disable the IDS to remove those limits. However, you can use the throttle IDS scaling mode to set a speed you want, then turn your ship to offset that momentum to horizontal and/or vertical velocity, then hold the desired thruster key to keep that momentum with the IDS on. I do that quite a bit in dogfights.

Galaxian · Post by **Galaxian** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:53 am

Blowing through an expanding fireball that was milliseconds earlier a Vonari fighter while in an epic 3500kph, full military throttle powerslide... priceless

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:34 am

Now you can slide and skip on the ice rings of planets like a pebble skips on a lake......

:P:P:P:P:P