Situation Update

[Dinac29]

Hi all, been playing these things for nearly 20 years. Nice to see a worthy game out on the market.

Played EM for a few days now, figured a lot of things out but have some questions.

Is it a bug that often when I right click in the nav map it doesn't show the quadrant? But instead shows a blank?

Do the mission enemies get tougher as you do? Or are they simply related to the mission difficulty, seems like no matter what I do I'm struggling to survive against any more than two fighters.

Thanks! Again again, great game!!

[Dingo]

mission difficulty will vary by sector and mission type. any other questions feel free to join the remula1 server on multiplayer and either one of us, or the server admin himself will help you out. welcome!

[Ravenfeeder]

Sometimes, with right clicking on the nav map, you'll get a blank. Usually means that you have just slightly missed your right click target. Try jumping nearer to your target, and right clicking again. Good luck, and welcome to the game, and the forum.

[Maarschalk]

Hi Dinac29. Welcome to the game and forum. Use the rear view and top view in Navigation console to see your relative position to the galactic plane equator. If you are above or below this plane where most of the planets and objects are located and you right click on the nav map you will get a blank sector.......

[49rTbird]

Hi Dinac29, Welcome to the forum and the Sim. Have fun and hope to see you out there sometime.

[Aures]

I believe there is an issue with right clicking on a sector when zoomed out. Sometimes it is because you have changed your SY and you need to use rear view to select the correct plane. Other times it seems to do it itself, I often have to use the rear view to get objects to show up when I have absolutely not changed the SY of my view. I believe that is the issue that a lot of people are running into, they say they click on a sector and a blank shows up and they are told they have changed the height they are viewing and need to reset it (or have clicked on the wrong sector). Resetting it using the rear view does resolve the issue but in many cases they have not changed the height they are viewing at.

Doesn't it seem odd to anyone that a lot of new players run into this issue when they are unaware of how the rear view works and have never used it or left the ecliptic? I am certain it is doing something odd sometimes. Usually happens to me a couple of times per session. Your current position and destination are set to SY=0, you right click on a sector while zoomed out in top view, the objects in the sector you have selected do not show up. If you then go into rear view and left click to set a current destination that is in the same SY plane as your ship and previous destination and then repeat the process of right clicking on a sector in top view the objects show up as expected.

I will get some specific position/destination information next time I run into the issue.

[Aures]

Originally posted by Eclipse
This can happen when the destination SY field is +/- the plane of the object being clicked on.

Thanks, I was trying to point out that I am sure that is not what is happening so obviously I wasn't very clear.

Originally posted by Eclipse
Pay attention to your SY value in the nav map while you are replicating the effect.

Your actual SY value changing doesn't cause this issue, you can drift into a different sector but you will still see the plane of your selected destination when you right click on a sector.

I had a go at trying to cause this issue by flying around a bit but I was unable to. The issue seems to crop up when I am actually doing stuff rather than just flying around, guess I will have to wait for it to come up naturally. As I am currently just raising my military rank it might be a while before I run into it again.

[Jester]

Originally posted by Eclipse
This can happen when the destination SY field is +/- the plane of the object being clicked on.

I get this frequently after doing a lot of jumps (for example exploring unchartered space and returning to a charted region).

I always explore along the SY=0 galactic equator and the problem still occurs. Once it starts it's reproducable any time you zoom out and right click on another object (eg a planet).

Since the top down view shows all objects no matter what their SY co-ordinate I can't see this being the only cause.

The only way I have found to remedy the issue once it starts is to exit the game completely and restart the application.

[Aures]

Originally posted by Jester
The only way I have found to remedy the issue once it starts is to exit the game completely and restart the application.

That is what I used to do as well, but I have found that using the rear view and left clicking on the SY=0 plane does fix it.

I am hesitant to post this without the issue in front of me but I believe when it occurs you are able to see objects in your current sector in the SY=0 plane but clicking on another sector with objects in the SY=0 plane shows nothing. Whereas, if you have legitimately set your destination to an SY plane other than 0 right clicking on your current sector using the top down view will not show objects in the SY=0 plane.

[Jester]

Thanks for the tip Aures, I'll give it a go.

I must warn you though that should this work, my cat will hate you forever since the opportunities for her to get fed will decrease dramatically!!!!!

[Marvin]

Originally posted by Jester

Since the top down view shows all objects no matter what their SY co-ordinate I can't see this being the only cause.

Don't make that assumption. If an object is more that ten sectors from your current Y axis (the maximum range of your nav map), it won't show up.

Targeting an object that's out of plane can be most difficult if the object is near the edge of a sector. When that happens, it's best to rotate the map to Rear View and click on the center of the sector in question ... then rotate to Top View and do the same. The map should then display the correct sector, with the object where it belongs ... you can then right-click on the object to target it.

[Aures]

The maximum range for viewing stuff is within 8 sectors of your current location (including the sector you are currently in), so you can't view things that are more than 8 (or 7 depending how you count) sectors away from you on the SY axis at 8x zoom. There is no way to see something that is 10 sectors away from you (in any direction) without jumping closer.

[Marvin]

Point being, you can't see all the way up or down along the Y axis.

[SeeJay]

Welcome to a great sim Dinac29. See ya out there!

[Aures]

Ok I encountered the nav map right click issue. I was waiting for 1.158 to download and I decided to start a new profile in response to another thread to see how far I could get in the IMG quest with the starting equipment plus anything technically required to fill a contract. After I finished the first race the nav map was stuffed.

Right clicking on any sector doesn't work. If I use the zoom in/out buttons I can correctly zoom onto my current sector (which is also where my nav point is set). If I click zoom out one level and then right click on my current sector nothing shows up (so what I said earlier about it still working correctly for your current sector was wrong). If I then left click my destination is changed appropriately but the nav point does not show up on the map (even though it is in the sector I am looking at). I can tell from the destination coordinates that everything is happening in the SY=0 plane, but just to double check I used the rear view and confirmed the nav point shows up in my current plane. Just going into the rear view (but not changing the nav point) and then back to top view corrected the issue.

Definitely absolutely a bug. Unfortunately it is not the kind of thing that you can capture in a save. I took some screenshots but hopefully this issue is reproducible by starting a new profile and doing the IMG quest race.

So many new players have been told they were looking in the wrong plane when they have just been experiencing a bug. Luckily the solution offered to them does correct the issue, at least until they experience it again.

EDIT: happened again after I completed the IMG escort contract.

[Edited on 9-11-2010 by Aures]

[Vice]

I've been hunting this down tonight and haven't been able to duplicate it yet. When it does occur, what do the X, Y, Z, SX, SY, and SZ destination values read in the console? Any other readings appear incorrect/different? Any other steps to reproduce are appreciated.

[Aures]

Well both times I have encountered it today have been at the end of a contract, so the destination values are still whatever they were for the contract waypoint (ie in my current sector). I can't say for certain that I have encountered the issue in any other circumstances. So it might be something that sometimes happens when your last destination was a contract waypoint.

I tested whether it always happens at the end of the contract in certain circumstances (ie depends on how zoomed in you are in the nav map when you do the contract or similar) but I haven't found a reliable way to reproduce it.

When I encountered it at the end of the IMG race the screenshot I took had my current position at -75131, -9910, -56771 X, Y, Z and -3, 0, 2 SX, SY, SZ. My destination was set to -73920, -16900, 57020 X, Y, Z and -3, 0, 2 SX, SY, SZ (ie the waypoint I jumped to to start the race). Afaik the issue was present once I had finished the race and required no further steps but it might have been caused by some particular procedure I used in the nav map after finishing the race. I believe I was zoomed in all the way to my current sector. I zoomed out so I could see Evochron station and then right clicked on that sector. Nothing showed up. I played around a bit to confirm using the zoom in button showed the objects in my current sector. Zooming out and right clicking on my current sector showed nothing. If I then left clicked no nav marker showed up in the nav view but my destination was changed and I could see the nav point jumping around in my hud map. I always use the F1 shortcut to open the nav map rather tha some other method if that makes any difference.

Good luck trying to track it down, sorry I can't offer steps to reliably reproduce it. I'm not surprised this hasn't been picked up before as there is usually a valid reason for objects not showing up and afaik there might not be a method of reproducing the issue 100% of the time. It had to happen to me numerous times before I was absolutely certain there is an issue besides user error. As always I am greatly impressed by your responsiveness and dedication to supporting your products, I'm sure everyone else feels the same way.

[Maarschalk]

When zoomed out in the Nav map and right clicking a sector when zoomed out can be tricky depending on your view. If your view is from the top looking down on the galactic ecliptic and you zoom completely out, you zoom 8 SY sectors out also. So if you try to click a sector how do you know your zooming in on the right sector? Zooming in and out when right clicking in an empty sector does not change your destination coords or your current possition coords. Since the empty sector you inadvertendly right click on to get through the SY sector layers from on top does not have any objects in it to set a destination point even if it sets a marker you can see through the SY sector layers in the correct sector but your still zooming in on an empty sector. If I'm correct on this there should be a way to check which sector you are actually zooming in on to see if this is the case.......

[Edited on 11-9-2010 by Maarschalk]

[Aures]

Thanks Maarschalk but I am well aware how the coordinate plane mechanic in the nav map works (at least when this big is not present). Pretty hard to click on the wrong sector when your only at x2 zoom. You can check your actual destination by left clicking to set a nav point and then right clicking to zoom into the sector without moving the mouse (but a method that does not rely on your destination or keeping the mouse still would be welcome). Btw it doesn't matter what objects are in a sector because right clicking at greater than x1 zoom just goes to x1 zoom and does not set your destination regardless of objects.

There are two things I have observed in this issue that I don't believe are possible in the intended mechanic:

1) Start viewing at x1 zoom on your current sector with your destination also in your current sector (EDIT:in top down view). Press the zoom out button once. Right click on your current sector. The nav map shows nothing. Is there a valid reason for that to happen? It is not a matter of having a destination in a different SY plane selected or of clicking on the wrong sector by accident.

2) After doing the above if you left click somewhere in the sector no destination nav point will be displayed on the nav map. The nav map will remain completely blank. You can tell by looking at the destination coords and on your hud that the nav point is actually being changed. Are there any circumstances where that is supposed to be possible? Definitely doesn't happen if you are in the wrong plane to see objects at x1 zoom or if you right click on an empty sector by accident at a higher zoom. It also happens if you right click on something other than your current sector or if your destination is set to another sector. Using the zoom buttons works fine, but right clicking on a sector breaks the nav map until you press a zoom button again.

Please correct me if you have a valid method to do either of those. In fact point 2 is pretty much the hallmark of the issue, afaik there is no valid way to be at x1 zoom, left click somewhere in the nav map and not have your destination displayed on the nav map. So people who think they might be experiencing this can tell whether they have tripped over the bug or just right clicked on an empty sector by accident. Given this is proving hard to replicate it would be helpful if anyone who manages to do the steps described in point 2 lets the forum know about it. (EDIT: make sure you are in the top view, you can legitimately get this behaviour using the rear view).

Btw part of my real life job is capturing and describing bugs for programmers to fix. I appreciate people coming up with explanations for why I might be mistaken about there being an issue but I don't think it is a productive use of your time. I have had to deal with far more esoteric and hard to pin down bugs than this, people sometimes pay my company triple digits an hour to have me describe functionality issues. I am of course happy to do this for free for Evochron but I take it every bit as seriously as my professional commitments.

[Edited on 9-11-2010 by Aures]

[Edited on 9-11-2010 by Aures]

[Marvin]

1. Never right-click on the Rear View. Always left-click.

2. If you're out of plane, left-click on the Rear View first.

3. Then right-click on the Top View to zoom in on your targeted sector.

[Aures]

Is that a method of reproducing one of the things in my post or a guide for how to use the nav interface properly?

[Edited on 9-11-2010 by Aures]

[Marvin]

It's a guide for fail-safe plotting via the nav map.

The most likely reason you're having problems is because in Rear View, whenever you right-click, the map zooms in ... on a sector along your horizontal plane. Meaning, if you right click on a target that's, for example, four sectors down (along the Y axis) and three sectors right (along the X axis) ... the map will zoom in on the sector that's three sectors right ... but along your current Y axis.

In other words, you need to left-click to set the Y coordinate.

[Aures]

Sigh, can we just assume I am doing as I say I am doing?

When I say I am in top down view and I am looking at my current sector and the destination is set inside my current sector at x1 zoom I mean it, along with everything else I said.

It doesn't even matter if you do point 1 in the rear view or the top view as long as your nav destination is in your current sector. Using exactly the same procedure with exactly the same location and destination the nav map behaves in two distinct ways depending on whether this issue is present or not. I will grant you that using the rear view it is possible to left click on the nav map at x1 zoom and not see the destination marker come up so thanks for bringing that to my attention (I will edit the post accordingly) but it is not what I am doing.

And this is exactly why I use video capture software at work to document bugs. Anyone got particular freeware video capture software they would recommend?

[Marvin]

FRAPS used to be the standard freebie for video capture. As for the rest, could you list your steps, one by one?

[Aures]

Unfortunately fraps is watermarked and time limited unless you pay for it. If needed I can get it just for this but I'd rather install something I'm happy to keep using.

Here are my steps:

0) Start game, start a new profile, do the first contract, get to the next station for the quest. All done without exiting the game or doing anything else except for a esc menu quicksave.

1) Started IMG race contract. Before the contract my destination was set to the station where you get the contract. Once you take the contract your destination automatically sets to the contract location. I was definitely in top view mode for this entire process until I explicitly say otherwise (open questions, how zoomed in was my nav map? What text overlay state was active? Probably x1, definitely not x8. Text was on in some form, either all or stations selected).

2) Completed the race successfully. My destination at this point was in my current sector since it does not change after you start the contract.

3) Used the zoom buttons on the nav map to zoom out so I could see the next destination. (I am pretty sure I zoomed out but not so sure about how far).

4) Right clicked on appropriate sector for next IMG contract. Nothing showed up in the nav map.

5) Used zoom buttons to reset view so it centred on my current sector at a anything but x1 zoom. Reconfirmed my destination is in the same sector as me according to the coordinates and destination marker.

6) Right clicked on my current sector. Nothing showed up on the nav map.

7) Played around with it a bit, confirmed what behaviour I get and that it is always the same. Confirmed left clicking to set a destination and then right clicking without moving the mouse still shows nothing.

Found out that left clicking when the nav map is incorrectly blank sets your destination as expected but shows nothing on the nav map (ie it is set to the SX, SY, SZ of the sector you right clicked on, not a sector in another plane).

9) Played around with the destination marker not appearing for a while.

10) Activated rear view (open question, what zoom level was I at? I assume it doesn't matter) and immediately went back into top view without touching anything else.

11) Repeated steps 4 to 9 and confirmed everything now behaves exactly as you would expect (ie not as I experienced the first time I did them). The act of flipping between rear and top view fixed the issue.


Only steps 1 and 2 are needed to produce the issue, everything else is just what I did to test and fix it. Obviously it doesn't happen all the time, I am not sure whether it is random or depends on some variable. I encountered the same problem for one other IMG contract but the rest were fine. I have encountered the issue at least a couple of dozen times during my time playing Mercenary. Afaik they might all be caused by contracts but I am not certain. I have experienced it outside the IMG quest so it is not specific to any it.

Given that you can get kind of similar (but legitimate) behaviour while in rear view mode maybe some code for that effect is sometimes activated incorrectly?