Pinpointing an uncharted system

Earl · Post by **Earl** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:34 am

Ok, so I was cruising between two systems hoping to stumble upon an uncharted system, and was watching the names of systems as I flew by.. I picked one at random (after seeing a cluster of stations built by Miaz in open space, thought there must be SOMETHING cool there).

and here's the technique I'm trying to use to find the star/planets:

First, I found the north and south edges of the system, where the name changes. I did it by traveling straight north and south from an arbitrary point. I averaged to get the horizontal center of the circle.
Then I decided to travel west or east until I found something.
Well, it didn't work for me. After plotting all four edges and searching near the center, I still found nothing.

Am I wrong in assuming the system itself will be at or near the center of the named area? And is it possible for some areas to be named, but empty?

Aures · Post by **Aures** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:07 am

Yes you are probably wrong. The planet is probably at the edge of the system.

See my posts starting on page 3 of the thread http://www.starwraith.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6663 for details of the method I use. It has been very successful so far. Basically you follow the border of the system.

Earl · Post by **Earl** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:17 am

That doesn't follow any logic at all to me- how many objects have you found this way?

Capt_Caveman · Post by **Capt_Caveman** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:31 pm

I have explored many numbered systems from border to border and not found anything, I beleive the number is a referance to territory or something else and not a star or planet. found this true in legends and seems to be true in merc.
For example, I have a station at -420,0,-420 west of thuban. the system is m688, miaz has some stations to the east but i have found nothing else. the systems to the north, west and south are all labled T928, figure that one out lol

[Edited on 10-11-2010 by capt_cronic]

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:52 pm

Well, there could be only one answer. The universe is called "T928" and all others are "small subsystems within it!?!?! LOL:P

Capt_Caveman · Post by **Capt_Caveman** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:05 pm

Your probably right, but there are 3 or 4 more systems to the east between
m688 and thuban,
hard to visualize so i tried to plot a small area map and got confuseing results.
(it was late)
I'll try a better survey tonight

Post by **Marvin** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:28 pm

Systems are probably all either square or rectangular (as Earl mentioned) ... 'though there might be some systems embedded inside other systems.

Aures · Post by **Aures** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:33 pm

Following that method three hidden systems with 20 objects total. If you discount the part where I completely circumnavigate a system it took about 275 jumps. In the process I gained good clues to a large number of other hidden systems that will be much quicker to find so I expect my average to go below 20 jumps per object during the course of mapping the area.

Sorry the posts are long winded and confusing, I was partly developing the method as I went. There is a precise method but it is buried in those posts. I will try to do a clear step by step guide. You have already done steps 1 and 2.

First, some terminology. Many hidden systems have no real name. They are made up of several planets with names of the form letter-number-number-number eg A123. When you are out in deep space the sector you are in probably has a name with the same form. That usually means you are near a hidden planet in a hidden system. I will refer to them as lnnns which stands for letter-number-number-number system. Many hidden systems are at the intersection of a number of lnnns. I call them nodes because they are like nodes in a network. There are a number of borders extending out from the hidden system into space, effectively giving you a trail to the system. I call these internal borders. There are also intersections between one hidden system and the next that contain no objects. I call them anti-nodes. I call borders between two hidden systems external borders.

1) Fly to a lnnns. The best way to start is from one of the known systems around the edge (or in the centre) of a ring of known systems connected by jump gates. There are 4 major ones in the different quadrants of the quadrant map. From there head away from the known system and into the ring of space the system is on the border of. Soon you will leave the system and probably enter a lnnns.

2) This step is optional, you can follow the external border between the known system you just left and the lnnns and proceed to step 4 if you like. Otherwise, keep heading in the same direction until the system name displayed in the nav map changes to a different lnnns. You are now at the border between two lnnns. By finding it you can now find the hidden system/s they belong to.

3) Pick a direction and follow the border in that direction. It will probably be at a sharp angle to the direction you have been travelling so it may take a few jumps to work out what direction to go in.

3a- To follow the border jump to one corner of the nav map (ie 7SX and 7SZ from where you are) and check if the system name changes.

3b- If it does change you have just crossed the border and should jump to a different corner of the nav map to cross it again. Don't jump either in the direction you have been going or back to where you have just been. Jump perpendicular to your last jump in whichever direction is towards the other system.

3c- If the system name changes again you have crossed the border again and should repeat step 3b in the other direction. If the border is roughly a horizontal or a vertical line you will zig zag across the border and follow it in a certain direction.

3d- If the system name does not change you have either not jumped far enough to cross the border or you have jumped in the wrong direction. Jump again in the same direction and if the system name does change repeat 3b. If the border is at an angle you will often have to zig (go one way) several times in a row, then zag (go the other) once before zigging several times again. If the number of times you have to zig or zag changes the border is changing direction. Sometimes you will have to change the general direction of your zig-zagging motion to match. If you think you are heading deeper into the same system, make a right angle turn back towards the other system or backtrack to where you know the border is and follow it more carefully. To backtrack make a right angle turn, jump once and then another right angle turn so you are heading back towards where you came from but not along the same line. Usually following the border is pretty easy and does not require many right angled turns or backtracking.

4) After a while following the border you will jump and find yourself in a sector where the system name is different to the two you have been following. You are now a junction between three or more lnnns. If you are lucky the border you were following was internal and you were following it in the right direction. You have just found a node or hidden system and the possibility getting lucky is why I do step 2. More likely there is nothing at the junction, you have found an anti-node and the key to finding all hidden systems connected to it.

5) If you have found a node explore it and learn what planets it contains. If you have found an anti-node mark it on your map log with a name that includes all 3 lnnns. You can delete it when you have found all the systems the anti-node connects to.

6) Choose a border to follow between one of the lnnns you have been following and the one you have just encountered. If you were lucky you have been following an external border and have just found an internal border. If the anti-node is roughly a the shape of a T junction (rather than a Y junction or something else) chances are the border that dead ends is an internal one and you should head off in that direction. If you have just come from that direction you might have been heading directly away from a node, but no biggie. Keep on going. Most anti-nodes are between an internal and two external borders, but you might hit one that is between 3 external borders or one where more than 3 lnnns intersect. Whatever direction you go in, you are closer to finding hidden systems.

7) Repeat steps 3-6 but make sure you keep following whatever lnnns you decided to keep following the first time you hit an anti-node. You will eventually find the node for that lnnns.

In the worst case you will completely circumnavigate the border before finding the hidden system. The size of the system depends on how crowded the area of space it but when I tried it it took 111 jumps to do an almost complete lap. There is a benefit to being unlucky, in that on the way you probably hit an anti-node between one lnnns in the system you just found and two lnnns that are in the next hidden system. You can go directly back to that anti-node and follow the border directly to the new hidden system. So really you just found two hidden systems. As you keep exploring the amount of anti-nodes you find grows faster than nodes and each hidden system will be easier to find than the last. It has taken me between about 10 and 100 jumps from when I start following the border. 100 jumps is an almost worse case scenario travelling from the heart of one hidden system to another in densely populated space.

Point 3d is just a beginners guide to following borders, since that is where the real art of this is. Maybe a picture (or three) is worth a thousand words:
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/591716a334.jpg
This is drawing I made as an example of how hidden systems work. The yellow circles are hidden systems or nodes. The black circles inside those are hidden planets. Blue lines are internal borders. Green lines are external borders. Red circles are anti-nodes. The drawing is not to any scale but does represent how hidden system borders work. I used straight line segments for simplicity, real borders have a much smoother shape. I think the system designation you see when in a sector is determined by some measure of what the closest object is to you. It is certainly not a simple shape like a square or rectangle. More like a squished tear-drop. It is probably worked out at runtime rather than stored in the universe file (certainly wasn't in the universe file for Legends). I will refer to up, down, left and right as north, south, west and east respectively.

Note that although this is not to scale it is possible to completely survey a large vertical strip down the middle of this picture without ever running into anything.
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/2c92e9c777.jpg
Here is an example of a pretty lucky voyage. Jumps are represented by arrows in that direction. Although they are fairly representative of the number of jumps they are just a graphics program line style and are not to any scale. You start by coming in from known space in the south-east by heading due west. When you reach the border of the known space system you keep going. When you next cross systems you start to follow the border north-west and run straight into a hidden system. You explore the hidden system and then head out following one of the internal borders. When you get to the anti-node you have to pick a direction. I kept the line blue if you turn right and chose pink to represent choosing left. If you go right you soon hit another anti-node. Since you have already been to the lnnns you just entered you know you are at an anti-node between an internal and external border of the system you just found. So you continue along the external border. Then you hit another anti-node and start following the internal border directly to the next hidden system.

If you turn left and follow the pink line you soon hit an anti-node that only connects to external borders. You don't know that at the time but you turn right to keep following the same lnnns. Then another anti-node, again you keep following the same lnnns. One more anti-node and you are on the internal border heading directly towards the next hidden system. If instead of sticking with the same lnnns you had gone a different direction you would have gone to a different hidden system. I have shown those possibilities with orange arrows. In the one on the left you turn at the next anti-node because of reasons that should be familiar by now and find another hidden system. In the one on the right you are already heading directly into that same system.

Real borders are not as straight as I have drawn them, but the paths I have drawn show how to deal with the most tricky kind of border where it is almost at a 45 degree angle. As the angle gets shallower it is easier to zig zag across the border. Most of the time the border is approximately horizontal or vertical and your flight path looks more like the orange arrow on the left. Of course you don't have to always jump to a corner of the nav map and in some cases that may cut down travel time. I talk only about jumping to a corner of the nav map for simplicity, consistency and because it is the most efficient way to follow a border most of the time. I could have crossed the border less often and made fewer jumps but it is important to keep a good idea of where the border is.
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/a823ac3f93.jpg
Here is an example of an unlucky voyage. You come in from known space heading due north in a straight line until you hit the border between two lnnns. At this point you have no idea where the system is or what direction the border goes in so you decide to jump north-west. After a little bit of backtracking you find the border again and start heading south-west. Looks like you will be taking the long way around. When you get to the first anti-node you turn right to avoid going back to where you came from. Five anti-nodes later and you are on the internal border and heading to your first hidden system. It took longer than the first example but you actually know a lot more. You have four different anti-nodes that you know about and can choose as your next destination. Three of them lead directly to other hidden systems. So really going the long way round the external border has got you 3 hidden systems rather than one. You may choose to go to the anti-node that has only external borders because you have know way of knowing that. In that case the journey is slightly longer.

If your luck is really running against you you will turn onto the orange path rather than keeping on the pink and will stay on the external border. If the anti-node is an obvious T junction then you should turn rather than stay on the straight. If it is hard to tell then it is a 50/50 chance you will go the right way. If not, then you won't find the next hidden system until you hit an anti-node somewhere to the west.

EDIT: Changed the embedded pictures to links as they apparently bigger than forum guidelines. The image host is not great so you might have to refresh them to get the image to load.

[Edited on 12-10-2010 by Aures]

Earl · Post by **Earl** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:46 am

All that sounds rather counter-intuitive to me, but I'll go give it a shot. During the course of my trips the other night I managed to make a fairly complete map of the borders of some areas- The systems I have found appear to be rounded.
Aures, do you find planets just floating or do you find them orbiting stars?

Whytephyre · Post by **Whytephyre** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:02 am

Depends on the planet, both being near a star & being hundreds of sectors from a star are possible

btw: my method is called drink & jump.
Fly between systems until the news console changes system names, set a map marker, then drink beer & jump around within the system limits at random.
Depnding on your luck it can work great, or hardly at all

:P

[Edited on 10-12-2010 by Whytephyre]

Aures · Post by **Aures** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:28 am

Yeah the method only works where there are a number of differently named systems in close proximity. Try going to Virgo as one of the planets right by the gate has a name that is a letter-number-number-number so you can see the effect there. It also works for a number of other known systems where parts of the system have their own name. For most named systems the method doesn't work because the object/s is/are somewhere near the centre.

I suppose it is possible one or more the lnnns I have run across are rogue planets not connected to any star but I don't think so. I think the above method should work for the run of the mill lnnns but not named hidden systems.

If it is a named hidden system I can't really help you at this stage. But I can tell you the object is probably not at the centre of the system. I have poked around the borders of one of the hidden planets and while it is less than 100 sectors from the main system the sector name stays "Unknown" out to more than a thousand sectors beyond the planet (at least in the direction I tested). So the named hidden systems are all probably non-symmetric and it is unlikely you can find the objects by following the border and extrapolating where the centre is.

My theory at the moment is that the system designation is determined at runtime by whatever is the closest object. I have yet to properly test that theory but if it does hold water I should be able to locate objects in named hidden systems by knowing the locations of objects in neighbouring systems. The border should be halfway between the two objects according to my current thinking and I can work out where to search based on my knowledge of neighbours.

In that hidden planet system that extends over a thousand sectors I just crossed a border into the next system. It is a named hidden system that I had no idea existed before yesterday. I was going to start mapping the border today. Since the border is over a thousand sectors away from the hidden planet I guess I am over a thousand sectors from the system I am looking for. Plotting the border between the two and taking a look at its shape should give me a good idea where to search. It is a good test of the theory because the system is probably gigantic compared to the ones I was exploring before.

If I find the system I am looking for or give up I will switch to plotting the systems around Al's Quay to try and get a good idea where I should search in it for objects. It is just a theory at this stage so I would suggest others stick to lnnns for now.

Whytephyre · Post by **Whytephyre** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:38 am

Originally posted by Aures
My theory at the moment is that the system designation is determined at runtime by whatever is the closest object. I have yet to properly test that theory but if it does hold water I should be able to locate objects in named hidden systems by knowing the locations of objects in neighbouring systems. The border should be halfway between the two objects according to my current thinking and I can work out where to search based on my knowledge of neighbours.

when you put it like that it almost sounds like triangulation would be a simple
solution

Aures · Post by **Aures** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:53 am

Exactly Whitephyre. Given the distance of a stretch of border from a known object I should be able to determine the locus of an object that is at the same distance from the border but in the new system.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:44 am

Nice Aures, thanks for the info. This should be very helpfull for a lot of players who want to explore....

Aures · Post by **Aures** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:33 am

My pleasure.

Ok hit a bit of a snag with the named hidden system I found. I am actually at the border of an Unknown system (ie area around a hidden planet in a known system) and two named hidden systems. I think both the named hidden systems are part of the same system and that is causing my system name to constantly change. If that is the case I will probably be able to find it using some variation of my posted method.

After I have done that I will go to Al's Quay as that may be a better test of trying to find a hidden object that is not near a border.

Post by **Marvin** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:05 am

Originally posted by Aures

I think both the named hidden systems are part of the same system and that is causing my system name to constantly change.

You might be cutting across an embedded system ... one small system inside another large one. If so, the name would change from the larger system to the smaller and then back again as you pass through the smaller system.

MiaZ · Post by **MiaZ** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:35 am

Originally posted by Whytephyre
btw: my method is called drink & jump.
Fly between systems until the news console changes system names, set a map marker, then drink beer & jump around within the system limits at random.
Depnding on your luck it can work great, or hardly at all :P

This method works really well for me.

I always find something, just not many planets yet.
But its been fun.

Aures · Post by **Aures** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:47 am

No I wasn't dealing with an embedded system. And I had actually been to both of the systems in Legends, I just forgot about one of them. I gave up in the end and went back to Legends.

Minor spoiler alert:
I was actually hunting around the border of Pearl Unknown, Lost Rucker and Solace Prime. I forgot that Solace Prime was part of the Lost Rucker System. After a little while I did suspect that it might be and that I had forgotten. I wanted to see if I could find Lost Rucker the hard way since I didn't remember the coordinates from Legends. At least I found out there is a whole lot of nothing between Pearl and Lost Rucker and the borders behave weirdly at very large distances. I hadn't found the Lost Rucker Gate in Mercenary yet, so I have just found it by going to Lost Rucker the long way.

Here is a link to a screenshot of part of my journey. Black is Pearl Unknown, red is Lost Rucker and blue is Solace Prime:Pearl Hidden/Lost Rucker/Solace Prime border journey

I think the border weirdness is because that part of my journey was a long way from the Lost Rucker system. The borders I have followed between lnnns have been much cleaner and closer to the actual systems. If I had gotten closer to the system I might have been able to follow a sensible border, but from where I was the border was very foamy and hard to follow. In hindsight there is a border that leads in generally the right direction but it would take a lot of work to follow.