another day, another newbie

49rTbird · Post by **49rTbird** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:53 pm

I Have found that if I do a quick save just before I try something strange it pays off in the long run (lol).

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:31 pm

Yes, always Save before trying something stupid.....LOL....

:P:P:P:P

Marsu · Post by **Marsu** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:53 pm

yeah, I do that, it just never occurred to me that it could work

I found something else that is a bit weird:
if I accelerate straight ahead (in inertial), the speed limit is 3600 (depending on the frame, I know).
but then I can still accelerate to max 3600 sideways AND vertical, which adds up to more than 3600.
But if I turn, the speed "vanishes". Suddenly I only have something like 2800 on every axis... seems like the "boundary" for the speed-vector is a box, not a ball, which would make more sense.

well, speed limit in space doesn't generally make "sense", but I have seen in frontier how much fun space-combat is without that limit, so thats ok

(space combat at 10-100k m/s: "there he is! he is in range!" *pew pew* "and he's gone. turn around, accelerate for 2 minutes, yay!" )

Post by **Marvin** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:49 pm

The readout is for velocity ... not speed. Velocity has vectors. Turn 180 degrees from your direction of travel and your vector is a negative of your speed.

warsign · Post by **warsign** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:16 am

Marsu · Post by **Marsu** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:34 am

Originally posted by Marvin
The readout is for velocity ... not speed. Velocity has vectors. Turn 180 degrees from your direction of travel and your vector is a negative of your speed.

yes, I am aware of that. But try this:
- turn off IDS
- point your ship at heading 0Â°, level flight
- accelerate to maximum velocity straight ahead
- accelerate to maximum horizontal velocity to the right or left (without turning, just with the thrusters)
- now you have forward velocity of 3680 / 4k / whatever max is for your frame AND the same for horizontal speed.
- This means a total speed of 5204(pythagoras 3680Â²+3680Â²=5204Â²)
- turn your ship (not roll) on the Y axis by 360 degrees to the left or right
- turn it back the way it was (well, it should already be, after 360Â° turning)
- Surprise, surprise, your speed is suddenly different

I just tested this again. My forward speed was 3680, my horizontal speed too. After the 360Â° rotation it was ~2000 forward and ~3000 horizontal.
Which means the actual velocity is ~3600.
WHERE DID ALL MY SPEED GO?

[Edited on 31-12-2009 by Marsu]

[Edited on 31-12-2009 by Marsu]

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:34 pm

There no "free rides", when it comes to energy/movement so to speak. Some energy was used to make the turn and it had to come from somewhere. The "loss" as you see it was used as energy to make the turn or whatever other moves you made.

Marsu · Post by **Marsu** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:55 pm

Originally posted by MMaggio
There no "free rides", when it comes to energy/movement so to speak. Some energy was used to make the turn and it had to come from somewhere. The "loss" as you see it was used as energy to make the turn or whatever other moves you made.

aw come on, that is a bad copout.
If it were that way, I would constantly loose speed with every rotational maneuver. Which I don't.

Even if it where that way... I am no physicist, but even if the thrust for a simple rotation along one axis and the following counterthrust to stop the rotation would slow me down, it would probably not by 35%. Otherwise that would be one bad shipdesign, if 1 second of maneuvering thrusters could cancel several seconds of afterburner.

Marsu · Post by **Marsu** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:55 pm

Originally posted by Eclipse
Originally posted by Marsu
- This means a total speed of 5204(pythagoras 3680Â²+3680Â²=5204Â²)
Your math is wrong. 3680 forward at pitch zero and (not plus) 3680 vertically up means that you should have 3680 also at forward with pitch +45. Yes, that really is rocket science.
Your "missing" velocity comes from firing the RCS in changing attitude.

[Edited on 12-31-2009 by Eclipse]

No, basic vector math. A vector that has a size of 3680 on the Z axis (forward) and 3680 on the Y axis (up), has a length of ~5204.
Sketch it on a piece of paper... you can mark the length on the x-axis, draw up the same length. from there you draw a line to the origin... tadaaa, triangle.

At least that is what I am thinking. You can prove me wrong, it has happened before. I am not a math-genius or anything, but those basics kinda stuck with me...

Marsu · Post by **Marsu** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:40 pm

Here, take a look at that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_ ... ubtraction

my speed and direction are the sum of two (or three) vectors, in your example up (0, 3680, 0) and forward (0, 0, 3680).
The sum is vector (0, 3680, 3680).
The length of vector is squareroot (a1Â²+a2Â²+a3Â²) = sqrt( 0Â²+3680Â²+3680Â²) = sqrt (27084800) = 5204.31

because, as Wikipedia states: "The length of the vector a can be computed with the Euclidean norm (formula see above) which is a consequence of the Pythagorean theorem since the basis vectors e1, e2, e3 are orthogonal unit vectors."

And if Wikipedia is not enough for you I can get out my mathbooks from a few semesters back...

I am sorry if I sound condescending, but I am trying to make a point here. The point that the calculation of speed (or more specific the speedlimits) in this game is a bit to simple, I think.
And of course to educate everyone on the importance of vector-math

And no, I don't have anything better to do on this beautiful new years eve...

btw, the pythagorean theorem is used to calculate the length of the hypotenuse. Of course, as it uses areas to do so (the square on all sides of the triangle), it can also be used to calculate surface areas.

[Edited on 31-12-2009 by Marsu]

Dengar · Post by **Dengar** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:01 pm

Sorry boys, but does it really matter?

Most combat pilots tend to use their thrust like a switch - either on or off. All they look at is their target, shields maybe number of missile left and their fuel.

By the way - Happy New Year to all Evochron pilots, but particularly to Vice. Thank you for all you efforts and we hope to continue the carry the fight into the next episode.

Marsu · Post by **Marsu** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:23 pm

Well... for the general awesomeness that is Evochron it does not matter.

But of course, educating people (and oneself) is always important in my eyes.

I mainly brought it up because 1) I found it odd and 2) I just think this is something that *might* be exploited.

If it is an easy fix, fine. If not, it can be ignored, I am sure Vice has more important things on his agenda. Like making Evochron even more awesome!

Post by **Marvin** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:52 pm

Originally posted by Dengar

Most combat pilots tend to use their thrust like a switch - either on or off. All they look at is their target, shields maybe number of missile left and their fuel.

Actually, real combat pilots "look" at a lot of things. If you've ever watched Dogfights on the History channel, you'll probably remember the comparison charts for the two dogfighting aircraft. The winning pilot is usually the guy who not only knows all that stuff but also knows how to use it to his advantage.

I doubt the AI in Legends can adapt his tactics to fit the statistics of both his ship and the ship of his adversary. Then again, when on line, you don't always go up against AI.