Fresh Idea... please give input.

[TGS]

So here I am on this random monday bored sifting through games I have... and I came across a game I haven't played in ages from Microsoft called Allegiance and I started playing it again and I got to thinking... there is a really good system in that game that would work amazingly in Evochron long term. And that is the radar "signature" concept. Which could then be incorporated into and against both passive hull designs/plating for additional reduction/stealth etc. Then there could be active stealth which like in the game it actively reduces your signature. Then you could go as far as to make optical cloaking as yet another device. This would actually go even further than the concept in Allegiance as their "cloaking" is effectively stealth.

The concept works generally like this. Things are given a radar range. Say a probe or even player has a radar range of 2500m if you have a signature of 100% base... they will see you at 2500m. However say you have a heavy ship... decked out with lots of hardpoints your signature might actually be 200% or even 250% which would then make you visible for them by up to around 8000m even though their range is only short... because your signature is so large they pick you up easier. That would also obviously open up variable sensor ranges and a whole interesting "balancing" structure. I think due to the scope of the game this would really add a great dimension to the size and scope of the game. This could translate into just about everything in the game. Stations showing up at such a long range because they have such a high signature due to their size. Planets the same.

General concept is the larger the ship and the more things you have on it the larger your signature is. And for balancing reasons with the exception of specific "stealth" designs all ships should have a 100-150% signature regardless of their size. But you could design a stealth oriented ship that has a 60-75% signature then activates the active stealth for a further 30% reduction dropping down to 45%.

Which means if they had good sensors of say the Evochron 10000m (10km) that having a 45% signature. True stealth essentially. And that could also give the "cloaking device" its own niche and be rebalanced so it's more for hiding/evading whereas stealth is more geared for surprise attacks. If you decked your ship out for optimal stealth you could get down to like 13% signature which would mean that if they had basic/bad sensors you could be right on top of them and they wouldn't know it. But if they had really good top end sensors you'd still have the element of surprise but not by much. IE 13% signature of a 2500m sensor vs 13% of a 10km sensor.

I just think it would add a great level of depth to the game by large. The only real question is how feasable would it be to put into the game and what would the rest of you think about such a system?

[Edited on 8-17-2009 by TGS]

[Knife26]

I think it would make it much more realistic and feasible as a space sim.

[TGS]

Yeah not to mention it'd just be more fun. The biggest complication I would see with adding a system as dynamic as this now that I'm thinking about it... is the AI. Giving the AI the ability to react and work within the confines of a system like that. Also if it could be done the AI would have to be structured variably as well. So you couldn't simply say "ok I'll aim for 50% or less signature and I can safely avoid all npc contact" Though naturally if you are really focused on stealth and aim for 10-20% you would have that luxury. But it could have a drawback of being double-sided. Friendly ships won't know you're there either so they won't be inclined to trade with you or help you out should you get into a pickle.

Originally posted by Knife26
I think it would make it much more realistic and feasible as a space sim.

[Nigel_Strange]

Friendly ships can trade when I want to trade, and they usually don't help me that much.

I do like the idea, in general. I had suggested something similar: a stealth-augmented ship design that, while not invisible, would be radar invisible for good distances.

I hope you have better luck selling your idea than I did mine.

[TGS]

Well as far as trading goes... if you're orienting your ship around passive stealth... its a disadvantage you'd have to accept. Active stealth on the other hand you wouldn't have to worry too much.

As far as idea... I've noticed a lot of ideas here get shot down. If it gets shot down that's okay. It wouldn't exactly be an easy change to put in. The variable sensor ranges could be doable fairly easily... but making it retroactive in terms of a ship signature could be more work than Vice wants to do lol.

Originally posted by Nigel_Strange
Friendly ships can trade when I want to trade, and they usually don't help me that much.

I do like the idea, in general. I had suggested something similar: a stealth-augmented ship design that, while not invisible, would be radar invisible for good distances.

I hope you have better luck selling your idea than I did mine.

[tha_rami]

Actually, I like the entire way the system sounds and functions.

[verbosity]

Originally posted by TGS
As far as idea... I've noticed a lot of ideas here get shot down. If it gets shot down that's okay. It wouldn't exactly be an easy change to put in. The variable sensor ranges could be doable fairly easily... but making it retroactive in terms of a ship signature could be more work than Vice wants to do lol.

I Think its only fair to point out that usually there a few criteria that go into an idea making it into one of vices games.

1. It has to be a valid idea that enhances game play with no ( or little negative effect), and without effecting the 'balance' of game play.
2. there has to be good support for the suggestion with little negative feedback.
3. for it to make it into a current game it has to be a pretty minor change to avoid creating new bugs ( usually these ideas get put on a list for the next game )

there are probably more, but I'm stating from experience and not vices stated process for this.

How much work it is for vice doesn't usually enter into it , There are sometimes concepts that can't be put into one game, and yet make it into another future game ( war zones are a good example of this, they were suggested for Renegades, but didn't appear until legends ).
It's also worth noting that there are a lot of people who play and buy vices games but don't use the forum, several contact vice directly by email, this 'silent majority' do have a noticeable effect on the games, even if us forum users don't realise it.

[Edited on 8-17-2009 by verbosity]

[49rTbird]

Hello Knife26, welcome to the forum and the Sim. C U out there sometime soon.

[TGS]

Yes well I'm very aware of the limitations of design in the game terms especially considering at the end of the day he is only one developer.

This particular change is large in theory... but it ultimately depends on how much framework is already built into the game to support the harder aspects of the suggestion. IE are variable sensor ranges possible within the current engine? Can "items" be made to provide the variable sensor ranges? (IE the same as the engine is on hull design). If yes then how difficult would it be to assign countervalues to various other aspects of the hull and hardpoints. Essentially its a revamp of what's already there. The issue is framework more than anything. If the game doesn't already have a framework in place to allow such changes then it would obviously have to go into another game because it'd simply be too much hassle to build into this one.

But I get the feeling Vice has done quite a bit of work into providing options for future "additions" to the game.

That being said though I get the feeling (And right now its just a feeling...) that he's closing the book on this game. That he might do a bit here and there but I don't think he's going to do much more into this game. So if that is the case... perhaps he can review this idea as a base for the next game.

Originally posted by verbosity

Originally posted by TGS
As far as idea... I've noticed a lot of ideas here get shot down. If it gets shot down that's okay. It wouldn't exactly be an easy change to put in. The variable sensor ranges could be doable fairly easily... but making it retroactive in terms of a ship signature could be more work than Vice wants to do lol.

I Think its only fair to point out that usually there a few criteria that go into an idea making it into one of vices games.

1. It has to be a valid idea that enhances game play with no ( or little negative effect), and without effecting the 'balance' of game play.
2. there has to be good support for the suggestion with little negative feedback.
3. for it to make it into a current game it has to be a pretty minor change to avoid creating new bugs ( usually these ideas get put on a list for the next game )

there are probably more, but I'm stating from experience and not vices stated process for this.

How much work it is for vice doesn't usually enter into it , There are sometimes concepts that can't be put into one game, and yet make it into another future game ( war zones are a good example of this, they were suggested for Renegades, but didn't appear until legends ).
It's also worth noting that there are a lot of people who play and buy vices games but don't use the forum, several contact vice directly by email, this 'silent majority' do have a noticeable effect on the games, even if us forum users don't realise it.

[Edited on 8-17-2009 by verbosity]

[MMaggio]

I can tell you as a matter of fact, that no idea passes Vice's vigilance. If it's feasible, and practical, it's done right away. If not, it's added to an ever growing list and considered for future games.
I remind you folks, that no one game can/or ever has had everything.
But, compared to other games, at least he listens to players and does what he can to impliment your ideas.
I say there is no other author who does this or is willing to listen, so just because there isn't an instant response, doesn't mean your idea doesn't get put in the "to do" list!
Keep 'em coming...

[Vice]

Couple of thoughts that come to mind (along with some notes to help me keep track of potential changes :

- The current system was designed around a 'transponder' system. That is, a global system that had every ship use a send and receive system for identification and detection at a standard range. This gave a predictable behavior with a finite 'activation' point for both the AI system and onboard player systems. I would need to split this into multiple independently operated systems to allow for situations where the player might be able to detect a ship at a greater distance than the AI ship can pick them up and also reverse situations where the AI ship picks up the player before they pick up the AI ship (could make for some exciting scenarios where the player is ambushed by an attack they didn't see coming, lol).

- Hardpoints are internal in Evochron (much like current generation stealth fighters), so they would not impact sensor range. However, the ship itself could certainly be a factor. Some designed and built more for stealthiness (small scouts, unique hull coatings, etc), others for capacity or heavy combat (less stealthy but more robust armor, larger hulls for cargo/equipment, etc).

- This would be a major rule changer for the current game. Generally these are avoided for existing games unless there is strong consensus.

- Originally, I was going to implement something like this based on different sensor devices (installed as equipment to improve sensor detection). However, purpose built ship frames being the primary/only factor has major appeal as an alternative and it would also keep one equipment hardpoint free (good for the current limit of 5 and potential of additional equipment, even with more slots).

- I personally like the idea a lot and have it on my list. Not sure when or how it may be implemented yet (there are indeed a lot of critical balance issues to consider), but it's something I've wanted to do for a long time.

It's a challenging system to 'get right' as it is inherently an unblanacing concept to mismatch sensor capabilities so significantly between ships. Added to that are all of the various AI, trade, reputation, and economic systems that use the fixed structure (where what ships detect determines their actions to, for, and around the player and in the local area)... lots of system threads to consider/modify.

That being said though I get the feeling (And right now its just a feeling...) that he's closing the book on this game. That he might do a bit here and there but I don't think he's going to do much more into this game.

Oh, I'm still working heavily on it. As long as relevant/feasible/beneficial suggestions and requests come in with enough interest in the game, I intend to keep at it. I've been very busy working with several players who have been working on mods for the game and have run into some limitations, minor bugs, and obstacles that need some fixes and new functionality added. So the next update may not be all that 'glamorous' compared to some, but it will be implementing some important changes for those players working on mods and include some additional improvements. It's an update focused on a lot of 'under the hood' improvements.

[Edited on 8-17-2009 by Vice]

[TGS]

Hey first wanted to say thanks for the response. Glad to get your view on it.

As far as the transponder system goes. I thought about that as well... but in many respects especially in a "solo" military situation you would simply turn such a system off. Unless you're working in a fairly large coordinated effort you simply wouldn't want to broadcast that you are there much less who you are. Which is where the signature system would fall back on.

Thinking about it now in light of your response... such a change might be a tad too much of a change for too... little of a benefit.

Though that being said it could be something slowly built in over time depending on how long your intended development cycle will remain on this game. Obviously picking the most obvious and least gamebreaking to be the first put in. Which would most likely be "equipment" based sensors. Then from there modify it so that such sensors could be variable. From there you'd want to probably introduce the signature system. A visible "value" modifier in which you are visible to sensors of whichever range you added. This would be pointless at first outside of testing but once you were comfortable with it you could move forward and tweak as necessary.

The most "game breaking" of all the changes would ultimately be the ability to turn off your IFF/Transponder. Because if the rest didn't work 100% to fall back on... turning off IFF/Transponder would simply break everything gameplay wise.

Ultimately I think these changes would be a massive boost to the atmosphere of the game. I would go as far as to say it would also open up many options as far as additional "equipment" and potentially adding a lot of customizing options that could add flavor to the game as well as functionality. IE once you have variable sensors in... equipment items could be put in to "scan" for example long range scanners which takes your base scanning range and increases it by say 500% but only picks up things at or below x signature range. IE stations/celestial bodies planets. (Basically the point behind this would be exploration and fun. Especially with the distinction between capital ships and smaller ships (They would have a much larger signature). This should also pick up those within that distance who are broadcasting their IFF/Transponder. IE giving you effectively a very large sensor radius but would require energy to use and could even have a charge up time to balance it out. IE when you turn it on it starts expanding outwards over 10-15 seconds to its full distance.

Gonna make a new paragraph for this cause its abit complex but really neat. Another item type could be a stealth scanner. Which when coupled with your base sensors it could provide 50% "stealth detection" which is where it gets complex. Say you have a sensor range of 5k (5000m) Someone has 50% Signature IFF off. You'll see them at 2500m right? Well what if they activated a stealth device taking their signature down to 15%. You won't see them til around 750m which by then they could have already sent missiles at you. What the scanner would do while activated would be take the 2500m value and boost it by 1250m regardless of their active stealth. So 2500m drops down to 750m but because you have the active stealth scanner up that goes up by 1250m thus allowing you to see them at 2000m. It wouldn't negate low signature at all but it would "counteract" the effects of active stealth.

Anyway I'm kind of getting off topic slightly. The general idea is that right now the game is really good but it's sort of lacking something. I feel that what it's lacking is features. Options... things you can add to and take away. Just random stuff that doesn't necessarily make or break your experience but tweaks it. Vice has done an absolutely wonderful job at giving us options... but with the game in the state it is right now (no offense Vice aside from weapons and a few random tools there isn't really a lot that can be added to the game feature wise. Equipment additions have their limits because the framework surrounding a lot of the ideas just isn't there. IE scanners the functionality nor reasoning for functionality isn't there. Also a few of the features and things that are in the game... don't really "fit" well. Such as the stealth devices. Out of all the games I've ever played... stealth (In reality cloaking) is always a balance concern because it provides near invincibility and a massive advantage. In Evochron there being two stealths a timed one and a untimed one. Balancing wise its interesting because it requires shield energy as well as ship energy giving a finite amount of time in. But it's still very much out of place. But anyway as I'm going offtopic again I won't go into detail. Point is a lot of the game feels clunky and tacked on.

There should be a lot more stuff out there in space to explore. More stars more planets. Less stations WITH the planets. Things to explore on planets. More concentrated military presences. More variety in ships and ship classes. IE Fighters, Bombers, corvettes, frigates, cruisers, destroyers even battleships. Right now its... fighters bombers and capital ships. Just feels... well not much. Then there's equipment. NOT ENOUGH OF IT

Then there's one other thing that is completely offtopic but sort of ties into it. Could a server application be made for this game that could actively support and hold a large number of people. This game has soooo much potential but even if say Vice got a massive sponser and a server host on a massive data center with an awesome server... I get the feeling that the way the server is designed seriously lets the game down. I could be completely off the mark but I've been doing networking and server management for a long time and I don't know darkbasic but there has got to be a way to setup the server so it is efficient and scaled properly. (With respects to the largeness of the game that is).

Anyway sorry for the massive amount of... well massive amount. TLDR is something I can't help but always do. For anyone that actually does get through it all I commend you and please reply with your thoughts and opinions I would love to hear them.

Originally posted by Vice
Couple of thoughts that come to mind (along with some notes to help me keep track of potential changes :

- The current system was designed around a 'transponder' system. That is, a global system that had every ship use a send and receive system for identification and detection at a standard range. This gave a predictable behavior with a finite 'activation' point for both the AI system and onboard player systems. I would need to split this into multiple independently operated systems to allow for situations where the player might be able to detect a ship at a greater distance than the AI ship can pick them up and also reverse situations where the AI ship picks up the player before they pick up the AI ship (could make for some exciting scenarios where the player is ambushed by an attack they didn't see coming, lol).

- Hardpoints are internal in Evochron (much like current generation stealth fighters), so they would not impact sensor range. However, the ship itself could certainly be a factor. Some designed and built more for stealthiness (small scouts, unique hull coatings, etc), others for capacity or heavy combat (less stealthy but more robust armor, larger hulls for cargo/equipment, etc).

- This would be a major rule changer for the current game. Generally these are avoided for existing games unless there is strong consensus.

- Originally, I was going to implement something like this based on different sensor devices (installed as equipment to improve sensor detection). However, purpose built ship frames being the primary/only factor has major appeal as an alternative and it would also keep one equipment hardpoint free (good for the current limit of 5 and potential of additional equipment, even with more slots).

- I personally like the idea a lot and have it on my list. Not sure when or how it may be implemented yet (there are indeed a lot of critical balance issues to consider), but it's something I've wanted to do for a long time.

It's a challenging system to 'get right' as it is inherently an unblanacing concept to mismatch sensor capabilities so significantly between ships. Added to that are all of the various AI, trade, reputation, and economic systems that use the fixed structure (where what ship's detect determines their actions to, for, and around the player and in the local area)... lots of system threads to consider/modify.

That being said though I get the feeling (And right now its just a feeling...) that he's closing the book on this game. That he might do a bit here and there but I don't think he's going to do much more into this game.

Oh, I'm still working heavily on it. As long as relevant/feasible/beneficial suggestions and requests come in with enough interest in the game, I intend to keep at it. I've been very busy working with several players who have been working on mods for the game and have run into some limitations, minor bugs, and obstacles that need some fixes and new functionality added. So the next update may not be all that 'glamorous' compared to some, but it will be implementing some important changes for those players working on mods and include some additional improvements. It's an update focused on a lot of 'under the hood' improvements.

[Edited on 8-17-2009 by Vice]

[MMaggio]

The most number of players allowed now is 36. Operating a server for over a year, the most I have ever seen at one time is 14.
If the number of players ever begins to push the 36 mark, I'm sure Vice will find a way to increase it.

[TGS]

Awwww that makes me sad. Considering how large the game "world" is.

Originally posted by MMaggio
The most number of players allowed now is 36. Operating a server for over a year, the most I have ever seen at one time is 14.
If the number of players ever begins to push the 36 mark, I'm sure Vice will find a way to increase it.