Best Joystick?

jclark109 · Post by **jclark109** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:47 pm

I can't use controllers since I am anti-ambidextrious ... not against it, just can do it.

Anyway, what is the best joystick you have found to play the game with? I have an old Gravis Blackhawk that I really need to upgrade.

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:13 pm

The Saitek "X" series are the most powerful, programmable controller in the world!
On the top end, there is the X52, a two piece HOTAS controller, cheaper might be the ST90, by the same company.
I don't know what you mean by "anti- ambidextrious".

verbosity · Post by **verbosity** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:15 pm

while I agree with MM I go for the Saitek st290 pro, its the best stick for lefties that I've found

jclark109 · Post by **jclark109** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:22 pm

I can't use a controller (gamepad type with 2 "paddles") because frankly I think the only reason I have a left arm and hand is to maintain my balance. I can hit a keyboard key, but to have any thumb control with my left hand is impossible for me. Was interested in a joystick that could use all the axis points allowed in the setup.

I will check into the ones mentioned. Thank you -

verbosity · Post by **verbosity** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:28 pm

I'd love to see the stick that would allow you to use all the axis with one hand, other than that go for the x45/x52 your left hand would be mostly adjusting thrust and some other minor controls I believe

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:51 pm

WOW! I am not familiar with that condition and am still not sure I understand.
Anyway, if you have the room on your desk, my first choice would be a used Saitek X45 or the newer Saitek X52 as verb has suggested.
Good Luck!

warsign · Post by **warsign** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:33 am

Originally posted by jclark109

Anyway, what is the best joystick you have found to play the game with?

What MMaggio says...

Tucker · Post by **Tucker** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:15 pm

I'm a leftie and I use the Saitek AV8R. I have most of the really common keyboard commands on the toggle switches. Weapons, countermeasures and afterburner as well as hat control on the joystick buttons an the thrust on the thrust levers at the front of the joystick

xman1 · Post by **xman1** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:19 pm

That depends on the money you want to spend. A Saitek is fine if you want a cheap joystick. If you want the best money can buy, look at the 21 lbs. Thrustmaster Cougar.

http://www.thrustmaster.com/product.asp ... atformID=5

32 buttons, up to 10 axis (ships with 6 axis). Has 64k of onboard memory and probably a faster CPU than your first PC. Fully logic capable (not like a cheap software program like other joysticks, this one does it onboard), axis shaping, 65K position resolution (A Saitek will be about 256 position). Full GUI programming too if you don't want to learn the language it is based on.

Flight Sim people will write software for it if you just want to load someone elses code. Every sim on the market already has code written for it.

-X

[Edited on 6-29-2009 by xman1]

warsign · Post by **warsign** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:32 pm

Originally posted by xman1
That depends on the money you want to spend. A Saitek is fine if you want a cheap joystick. If you want the best money can buy, look at the 21 lbs. Thrustmaster Cougar.

LOL.
We say expensive to Saitek X52, you are saying cheap?
Again, different approach here.

But It looks good. What is price range of it?

Fly Safe...

verbosity · Post by **verbosity** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:40 pm

Originally posted by Eclipse
The Cougar system is nice, but the F-16 controls are a bit dated. When they make models for the F-18, F-22, and F-35 I will definitely look into buying one.

Me? I'm waiting till they come out with the controler for the MiG-31

Ravenfeeder · Post by **Ravenfeeder** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:49 pm

I use the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro - it has 12 programmable buttons, 4 on the joystick hat, plus a changeable view button, and a throttle control - the afterburner is right next to my thumb. 12 buttons is enough for me, any more and i'd forget what the hell they were all for - and the joystick price won't break the bank. It also has a good solid base.

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:57 pm

I have to admit, as much as I support Saitek, that particular controller does provide a good option. It is a reliable controller and offers more than the Saitek St290.
For what it offers, it is a good buy!

warsign · Post by **warsign** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:57 am

Originally posted by Ravenfeeder
I use the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro - it has 12 programmable buttons, 4 on the joystick hat, plus a changeable view button, and a throttle control - the afterburner is right next to my thumb. 12 buttons is enough for me, any more and i'd forget what the hell they were all for - and the joystick price won't break the bank. It also has a good solid base.

Using same joystick, it is good and price range is awesome.

[Edited on 6-30-2009 by warsign]

xman1 · Post by **xman1** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:59 pm

Originally posted by Eclipse
The Cougar system is nice, but the F-16 controls are a bit dated. When they make models for the F-18, F-22, and F-35 I will definitely look into buying one.

Why? The F-16 setup is pretty much as perfect as you can get. So perfect, the F-22 uses the same number of hats and buttons and is nearly identical. The F-16 and F-22 are practically interchangeable as a stick, so it would be pointless to buy the F-22 controller over the one that ships with the stick. The difference on the stick itself? It sort of looks different! Nothing else. Buttons and hats are all the same.

The throttle is the only thing different on an F-22 since you have to deal with dual engines. Overall, the same hats and controls exist on the F-22 throttle short of the Ant Elevation knob and ranging knob since these task is now done by the F-22's computers and the pilot no longer needs to direct the RADAR since it is all done for him.

To those that don't know, what he is talking about above is that the Thrustmaster Cougar is built in a modular fashion. It was designed to have the stick itself unscrew from the base, and a different stick be put in it's place. Thrustmaster has not made an alternate stick yet due to the fact that there really hasn't been any new flight sims since Falcon AF.

Originally posted by warsign
LOL.
We say expensive to Saitek X52, you are saying cheap?
Again, different approach here.

But It looks good. What is price range of it?

Fly Safe...

The Saitek is about half the cost. There is one in the family, but I can tell you, I'd probably break it since it feels a little chinsey. The plastic even squeaks when you grip it. Just my two cents on it.

-X

PS. Here is the cockpit of the F-22. Notice the same hat placement as the F-16. It's like a mouse for your computer - impossible to improve upon a perfect design.

Just had to add this pic too! It came fro here:
http://www.aviationexplorer.com/f-22_raptor_facts.htm

[Edited on 6-30-2009 by xman1]

warsign · Post by **warsign** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:13 pm

Originally posted by Eclipse
Interesting picture, but I can tell you that that is not a genuine F-22 cockpit. The F-22 has metal stick and throttle, hats ans switches are also metal. What you have there is a picture of someone's home simulator, probably from HiRevSims.

But joystick style is almost like F16, or not?

warsign · Post by **warsign** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:51 pm

Originally posted by Eclipse
The hat and button positions for the F-22 and F-35 are in more comfortable locations, and easier to use, then those on an F-16. The number of hats/switches on the sticks are the same, then number of hats/switches on the throttles is greatly increased.

The F-22 stick/throttle can control 60 functions more easily then any previous control set. It's the ergonomics I'm far more interested in. A nice example is the single trim control, a single 4-way hat is used in the F-22/F-35 instead of the two trim knobs in the F-16.

Nice infos really,thank you. 60 functions? Great! That joystick must be like a keyboard.

How do you know all those things? Do you build a real F22 or F16 in your spare time? Any internet site about this? Learning all of them would be great, I like real fighters.

verbosity · Post by **verbosity** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:31 pm

Originally posted by Eclipse
I have a Lockheed-Martin plant in my town.

Do they have a Factory outlet? how much can you get a blackbird for?

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:42 pm

Maybe we can get one on Ebay?
I'll add it to my "wish list".

xman1 · Post by **xman1** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:38 am

Originally posted by Eclipse
Interesting picture, but I can tell you that that is not a genuine F-22 cockpit. The F-22 has metal stick and throttle, hats ans switches are also metal. What you have there is a picture of someone's home simulator, probably from HiRevSims.

The hat and button positions for the F-22 and F-35 are in more comfortable locations, and easier to use, then those on an F-16. The number of hats/switches on the sticks are the same, then number of hats/switches on the throttles is greatly increased.

The F-22 stick/throttle can control 60 functions more easily then any previous control set. It's the ergonomics I'm far more interested in. A nice example is the single trim control, a single 4-way hat is used in the F-22/F-35 instead of the two trim knobs in the F-16.

I don't want to argue with you, but I don't know where you get your information. Let me correct a few inaccuracies.

First off, the F-16 only has one trim control on its HOTAS too. It is the same trim control as the one in the F-22 - top right hat.

The above stick in the F-22 cockpit is not plastic, no matter how it looks to you. Those metal hats are simply painted. On the Cougar too, even though the hats look plastic, they are actually painted gray metal buttons.

The Cougar above can actually do 64 functions, but this is even not its limit.

The actual F-16, I'd have to count, but even more. It depends on the mode you are in. In MRM mode, the TMS (a 4 way hat) will change radar modes, bar scan modes, target designate, target break. In Dog Fight mode, it will control the scan range of the RADAR directly in four different modes, such as 10x60 or 30x20. This is just one HAT and I'm not even covering all of what it does.

I mean every hat and button has multiple functions. On the throttle for instance you have the manual range knob. It looks like a simple knob but in air to ground, it will change the contrast image of the ground scanning radar, or in Dog Fight mode, it will change the range on the gunsight for a stealthy attack for example. Press it down in MRM mode and you set an AMRAAM to boresight mode where you can launch and that missile will kill whatever it sees first. If you press this same button with a Maverick selected, it will pop the nose cover off the Maverick eye. Press it again, and you can force the maverick into boresight as well.

Even a single button has multiple uses. The top right hand index finger button will disable and enable nose wheel steering on the ground, change missile hardpoints in combat, and disconnect the F-16 from the tanker in aerial refueling.

The point being, I'm guessing the F-16 has more functions on its HOTAS than the F-22 since a lot of what had to be done by the pilot in an F-16 is automated in the F-22 making life easier for the pilot.

One more thought crossed my head here. Remember that the F-16 HOTAS has 32 buttons (48 if you include 8 way hats), and each button typically has about 2 to 3 separate functions on average, do the math on that one. I would hope they simplified the F-22. I would guess that a lot of the functions would be the same between the two aircraft however, outside of RADAR controls which are greatly simplified in the F-22.

On the stick, the above picture is a production F-22 stick. There was a stick that looked like the F-18's in the early simulators, but those were replaced with what you see above.

I'll post a condensed version of the F-16 controls in a while, and what they do. I'll have to put it together though.

And by the way, the F-16 stick is probably the most comfortable stick there is. That is why the F-22 using something almost identical.

-X

PS. Here is an F-22 on the flightline. It is not a simulator, but an actual aircraft. You should be able to count the throttle buttons in this pic. I'm guessing a couple of those hats in that pic are for thrust vectoring override - You can bet money on that one:

[Edited on 7-1-2009 by xman1]

xman1 · Post by **xman1** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:56 am

Originally posted by Eclipse
I have my information on the controls from being in the cockpits at Andrews and Langley Air Force bases.

Those are nice pictures of the non-production demonstrator cockpits.

The flight stick you show is inaccurate for current rollouts. The flight stick should look like it's attached directly to the panel with no "neck" and moves only 1/4 inch, control is determined by force applied. The flight stick here is also missing two hats that should be visible at this angle if it were indeed a combatant F-22.

That's ridiculous. Done arguing. Picture above is from 2008. The only different ones were the old prototypes.

-X

PS. Here is a good look for ya. Let me know when you figure it out:

BTW, here is one not installed:

[Edited on 7-1-2009 by xman1]

xman1 · Post by **xman1** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:28 am

Originally posted by Eclipse
Glad you're done arguing, and thank you for validating my point on your own.

The first one is from a training cockpit (not in an airframe), the second is from a company that makes flight simulator equipment. Neither picture is of a flight system in a production F-22.

Oh yeah? How? The first one above is a production unit, but you are ignoring that fact.

How about the US military itself:

Link here - http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/shared ... 4P-002.jpg (pic is too large)

The point is, the whole internet doesn't agree with you. All the recent pics don't agree with you. So I personally think you are lying when it comes to the F-22. I have a friend that flies F-16's (recently got taken out in training by F-22's as well, but that's another story). He doesn't agree with you. So how exactly am I validating your points? So if you want to press it, feel free. I'm not sure anyone agrees with you.

-X

[Edited on 7-1-2009 by xman1]

verbosity · Post by **verbosity** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:00 am

I thought I'd have a quick look round the net, Didn't find anything on the stick, but I found this

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:34 am

To xman1 and Eclipse...
Will you two boys please play nice?
In the great cosmic scheme of things, it really doesn't matter!
Thank you, MM

warsign · Post by **warsign** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:33 am

Originally posted by verbosity
I thought I'd have a quick look round the net, Didn't find anything on the stick, but I found this

Rofl!!!