Questions from the Sidelines

Quercus · Post by **Quercus** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:24 am

Okay, I have been tracking the various Evochron games since the Alliance one and have felt that although they are very ambitious, they just don't look or feel quite as intuitive as games I have previously played.
As the games have advanced the graphics have improved but as of Renegades it still doesn't feel quite right.
I was convinced by a colleague to purchase renegades and having done so, never quite managed to hook up with them to play it online.

I see that Legends is now the current version, so what happens to all the Regenades players? Is there any way to offset the cost of purchasing this version against my previous licence (and yes I know technically Renegades is still supported, but it obviously doesn't have the latest advances in the game engine).

I really want to love this game (I was a bit fan of Freelancer and what it tried to do with multiplayer), but so far I just don't.

What reasons would I have to splash out for this and to try and convince my friends to do likewise?
(It is a real shame that the demo version doesn't allow multiplayer - if you did include that I could at least get my friends to try it out).

berighteous · Post by **berighteous** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:50 pm

Legends is one of the greatest games in all gamedom. Its only $25. Buy it. Live it.

spelk · Post by **spelk** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:04 pm

Quercus, the demo allows you to play through the tutorials as much as you like, to get a feel for the handling, and then you have 90 minutes of play inside the game. I'm not sure anyone would get anymore out of the demo, if it included 90 minutes of online demo time. Plus you may have teammates winking out of existance, during a linked mission.

I didn't play a massive amount of Renegades at all, I bought it, dabbled a bit but wasn't caught by it initially. When I got my sweaty mits on Legends, I was sold almost instantly.. I think the advances made in graphics just helped me shift more towards it. Listening to the tutorials explain the inertial flight mechanics, also gave me a big leg up on getting started with the game. Once I understood the flying, the game starts to open up exponentially. Multiplayer opens it up even further. Legends is worth it though, because of where the game is going, since launch there have been major feature upgrades that warrant the entry fee alone. Ships hangars, and templates, plus multiplayer tweaks and the UI changes to the NAV system. All within the first month of release.

I think if you bought the game at launch, and you were a Renegades pilot already (ie. you have paid for the Renegades license) then there was a slight discount on the games price. I'm not sure if that still holds true, I think it may have been a time limited offer.

Let your friends try the demo, if they like what they see, then you can be assured that you can all play together on a server, or run a private server of your own.

You could all load up old copies of Freelancer and play that of course, but Evochron is taking the game into new territory and its development cycle is now, its updated, supported and whats more you can take an active part in helping shape its future, with your suggestions and input to this community, so I can't think of a better reason for buying it than that.

warsign · Post by **warsign** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:19 am

EL is awesome.

Exim · Post by **Exim** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:54 am

I am not sure what the official answer would be but in my very honest opinion... For $25 you are getting more than you paid for.

As I understand it, ER & EL are standalone product from each other thus not the same game, so you dont "upgrade" to another game.

Just because it is not a big title game, it doesnt mean it is any less of a game.
Good game and bad game is a very personal opinion... you either love a game do or you dont... no one can force you or "help" you in that regards... because you "want" to love EL but you dont? maybe a discount can nudge it along... what if you said that to your gf/wife or bf/husband... I wonder how that'd work out... (take no offence... I am just simply stating my pov)

Countless hours have been spent making this game, so I dont see why anyone should get a discount... developers deserve every dime they get... they have themselves to feed if not family to feed... they spent their time and had their brain cells killed and this is their reward... should they eat 20% or however much less for dinner each day because they are no big title? or should the funtionality of your copy of the game be discounted 20% or however much also?

I am fairly confident that if I went to EA Games or any other brand game publisher and said to them, "Oh I bought Version 9001 of your game, can I somehow offset the cost of 9001 for your 9002? Cos I really wanna love your game but I dont right now cos its a few bucks too expensive..."

And really... how much discount do you think you should be receiving? 10%? 20%? 30%? more?
10% = $2.5
20% = $5

Honestly if a few bucks will make such a difference to your life, maybe you shouldnt be playing games in the first place...

My above reply is based on my own intereptation of what you are trying to say, if I have offended you or got it all wrong or you wanna hold a gruge against me its all fine... come kill me in space... feel free... I am waiting

Daedalao · Post by **Daedalao** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:59 am

Exim, an independent developer is an interesting thing. I believe if you have a license for renegades, you may still be able to get a discount on Legends. But at $25/copy how can you turn this down

Vice is a very generous man, and for that I appreciate his games even more. Diehard fan sitting here because of a few other things too

tha_rami · Post by **tha_rami** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:07 am

I wouldn't count on a discount, but there's no reason to want one. For $25, you're getting one of the most complete and feature-rich space simulations available.

Ravenfeeder · Post by **Ravenfeeder** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:13 am

Come on, $25 are hardly going to break the bank. It's a darn sight less than you would normally pay for a game of this magnitude.

Sure, EL, can be frustrating, but, isn't that what a game is about; overcoming those frustrations, and winning?

Their are so many sub-plots in EL, all intertwined with each other. There's the money making, so that you can get better ships/equipment, and, there's a lot of ways of making that money, from mining asteroids, to selling commodities, to taking on contracts, both military, and civilian.

There's the military ship side, where your rank advances depending on how many military contracts you complete - took me a while to figure that one out. I initially thought that it was kills, in the military contracts, and then found that it was the contracts themselves that counted: Hint, go for the quickie contracts, instead of the multi waypoint ones, if you want to advance quickly.

There's an entire universe to explore, even caves inside asteroids, that's fun, especially if an enemy ship gets in there with you, though, that is more likely on the multiplayer role, than in the single person role.

Then there is multiplayer, which, if you get a good crowd in, can be amazing fun, and, you can learn a lot from them.

There is also a beacon quest, which can tax the brain cell.

For $25 you get all of the above, plus - a good deal in my book.

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:32 pm

You forgot to mention practically instant tech support, a developer that actually "listens" to the players and welcomes suggestions, debates and dialogue with the players. Many times resulting in a players suggestion actually being implemented in the game!
That alone, should be worth $25.00!

BraveHart · Post by **BraveHart** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:31 pm

Evochron Legends is Excellent.....Vice has put a lot of work into this game and is constantly making it better and better....The updated downloads are free, wow you just can't beat the awesome support he provides. It is money well spent and I know quite a few players in MP and that is just awesome when we all get together. I am sure you and your friends will have a Great time online in MP.

"Good Flying"

Tpol · Post by **Tpol** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:20 pm

Can't speak for everyone here, but I for one sure have a ton of games collecting dust on my bookshelf that I shelled out $50/each for, plus tax. Even titles I liked, it seems these days you get about 6 months out of a game before a company drops support and moves on to a new title. Or they release another add-on for another $50.

I loved Renegades and am loving Legends. Dollar for dollar, I've gotten much more bang for my buck with these.

But if you totally didn't like Renegades, then I'm guessing you won't like Legends either. It's up to you to decide if it's worth your money to find out.

Quercus · Post by **Quercus** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:29 pm

Originally posted by Exim
Honestly if a few bucks will make such a difference to your life, maybe you shouldnt be playing games in the first place...

The point is not so much the amount of money ($25 is cheap), but the fact that I already paid that for ER and barely touched it.
Okay, so EL is a tweaked version of ER but as I have already paid for one game, what is my incentive for coughing up for the next version?

And exactly how long will it be before a new version of EL appears as a separate game?

I guess what I am saying is, I kind of want to like EL and to get into that, but I am wary because of how little I played ER. And if I want to convince my friends to pay for it, I am going to need more than fan boy ravings.

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:52 pm

You know, if you bought Evochron Renegades and never or seldom played it, you probably will never or seldom play Legends either.
Perhaps you should just go back to playing Renegades until you think you got your monies worth, if ever.
No one here is trying to twist your arm or trick you into spending 25 of your hard earned[?] dollars.
Your money might be better served if you buy something you know will give you enjoyment.
Take some time, think about it and do what's best for you!
I hope you have fun, MM

Knight Rider · Post by **Knight Rider** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:52 pm

O.K. evidently, if you have never fully enjoyed Renegades, then you won't appreciate all the new features Legends has to offer. Like Tpol said, I have every space sim sitting on my book shelf collecting dust, and the only reason they keep collecting dust is that I can't find a game yet, that can offer the amount of features, game play, variety and support that this game has.

If you can find a game that can match everything Legends has to offer, please let me know, otherwise, buy the game, and discover what we here in this forum, already know, which is this, Vice is a one of a kind developer, who "LISTENS" to the player, and we are the better for it.

Vice develops great games for us because he is us. Enough said.

warsign · Post by **warsign** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:01 pm

Originally posted by Quercus
Originally posted by Exim
Honestly if a few bucks will make such a difference to your life, maybe you shouldnt be playing games in the first place...
The point is not so much the amount of money ($25 is cheap), but the fact that I already paid that for ER and barely touched it.
Okay, so EL is a tweaked version of ER but as I have already paid for one game, what is my incentive for coughing up for the next version?

And exactly how long will it be before a new version of EL appears as a separate game?

I guess what I am saying is, I kind of want to like EL and to get into that, but I am wary because of how little I played ER. And if I want to convince my friends to pay for it, I am going to need more than fan boy ravings.

Fan boy talking, listen:

1. Why did u play ER a little? It is still available and I guess new patch is on the road...I'm still playing it (more than 1 year).
2. Think about Crytek's Crysis. Approx 7-9 months later, new version "warhammer" came in to the picture. Is it tweaked version of Crysis? No, It is called sequel.
3. Evochron Legends is sequel of the Evochron Renegades.
Seperate game, seperate beacon quest, lots of new stuff.
4. Buying a game little late doesn't mean have to play it less.
Play both of them.

I want to fly with you and your friends. I want you to buy Legends and other sequels. I hope you got it...

PS: If you played and finished ER, you will see benefits in EL...

[Edited on 3-14-2009 by warsign]

Exim · Post by **Exim** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:04 pm

Originally posted by Quercus
Originally posted by Exim
Honestly if a few bucks will make such a difference to your life, maybe you shouldnt be playing games in the first place...
The point is not so much the amount of money ($25 is cheap), but the fact that I already paid that for ER and barely touched it.
Okay, so EL is a tweaked version of ER but as I have already paid for one game, what is my incentive for coughing up for the next version?

And exactly how long will it be before a new version of EL appears as a separate game?

I guess what I am saying is, I kind of want to like EL and to get into that, but I am wary because of how little I played ER. And if I want to convince my friends to pay for it, I am going to need more than fan boy ravings.

You said it yourself... $25 is cheap... so tell them... its a wicked game, try the demo out yourself and its ONLY $25 dollars... Is that not enough of a reason?

Multiplayer is virtually identical to Single Player except you have real people to talk to. So I think that MP to be included as part of the demo is absolutely unnecessary.

Besides, I still dont think you understand the point. The fact that you are bought ER and barely touched it is not caused by the game. The fact that you never got around to play with your friends on ER also isnt caused by the game. Perhaps you should better communicate with your friends.

Lets make yet another example shall we?
"The point is not so much the amount of money, but the fact that I already paid for 2008 and barely touched it."
"Okay, so a FIFA 2009 is a tweaked verson of 2008 but as I have already paid for 2008, what is my incentive for coughing up for the next version?"
"And exactly how long will it be before a new version of FIFA appears as a seperate game?"
"I guess what I am saying is, I kind of want to like 2009 and to get into that, but I am wary because of how little I played 2008. And if I want to convince my friends to pay for it, I am going to need more than fanboy ravings."

I wonder what that particular company will say to that one...

I am 100% certain the above mentioned game retails ALOT more than EL and for the price, even if you worked at McDonald's, by the time you come home work and read this, you may have already spent this much today.

My point is, you dont ask for a discount because you dont play the game enough, or your friends dont come online when you want them to. If you dont like the game, charging you $2.50 less isnt going to make you like it.

If your point isnt about the money, then why bother asking for a discount?

ALOT of games came out with alot of versions too, most also standalone and slightly tweaked. I wont go into that cos that'd just be off topic. Do you get a discount because you bought the prior version? or that you barely touched it?

Mate, It is $25 dollars, take it or leave it.
I am online most night when I come home from work. Feel free to take your anger out on me.

spelk · Post by **spelk** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:06 pm

Originally posted by Quercus
The point is not so much the amount of money ($25 is cheap), but the fact that I already paid that for ER and barely touched it. Okay, so EL is a tweaked version of ER but as I have already paid for one game, what is my incentive for coughing up for the next version?

I'm not sure your playtime on ER is an indicator as to how playable EL is. They are quite similar games, but EL is an evolution of ER, its the next in line, with a lot more features opened up, not to mention a step up in terms of graphical content.

Originally posted by QuercusAnd exactly how long will it be before a new version of EL appears as a separate game?

I don't know. But EL has just been released, and its still evolving at this very minute, so I'd say if you're holding off because there might be another sequel out "very soon now", I don't think there will be.

Originally posted by QuercusI guess what I am saying is, I kind of want to like EL and to get into that, but I am wary because of how little I played ER.

Well, if the features of ER didn't inspire you to play it, then perhaps certain features of EL won't inspire you to play it either.. that's down to your personal tastes.. no-one here can help you with that... but you can get a grip on those features and the extras by playing with the demo, and you don't have to invest any money to try that out.

Originally posted by Quercus And if I want to convince my friends to pay for it, I am going to need more than fan boy ravings.

By the sounds of it, I think you have to convince yourself first.

Do you think the game will open up, if you can have some solid argument to attract your friends into it? Because, there is an online community here, thriving, so perhaps the game will open up, if you were to taste it yourself without your friends first? If then you become overly enthusiastic for the game yourself, that will help you when presenting the case to your friends, surely.

But you see, you may not get a properly reasoned balanced answer here, because most of the people on these forums are already fans of the game, so you come to a place where the fans reside, and then ask questions to be convinced to like the game and sell it to your friends, and then you say its going to take more than the ravings of fan boys to convince them.. then your question should have been posed to a more impartial and objective set of forums/people, to be honest. Read some reviews out there, play the demo, and try and make your own mind up first.

The people here who already enjoy and play the game, are going to list the positives, they're going to bask in the stuff that makes the game important to them. And to be fair thats what you asked them. And they're telling you what makes EL special.

Why not check out the comments posted up on Rock, Paper, Shotgun - Vice did an interview there about the game. Check out the EL discussions on the Egosoft forums, to get a less fan boy, and a more objective viewpoint.

I hope you manage to come to a decision, and I hope you find what it is you're looking for.

Fly safe.

tha_rami · Post by **tha_rami** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:56 pm

I'm not actually a fanboy. I'm a convinced and happy gamer - have been since Riftspace. That's all.

Evochron Legends is an evolution of Evochron Renegades. The best indication about whether you'll like it or not is the demo. If you can't find anything good in the demo, you probably won't like the full game.

Evochron Renegades has been released in 2007. It's 2009 now, and Legends was released a month ago. By normal standards, most likely a hypothetical next Evochron title will be quite a while away.

If you barely touched Renegades, you've been missing out. I'd recommend you to avoid doing that again and just jump in with Legends!

[Edited on 14-3-2009 by tha_rami]

Daedalao · Post by **Daedalao** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:57 pm

rami, you mean renegades was released in 2007.

tha_rami · Post by **tha_rami** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:45 pm

Yeah, that's what I said

:P

spelk · Post by **spelk** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:45 pm

Originally posted by tha_rami
I'm not actually a fanboy. I'm a convinced and happy gamer - have been since Riftspace. That's all.

I didn't mean to insinuate we're all "fanboys" as a derogatory term.. apologies for that, but personally I think an Evochron fanboy is a thing to be proud of.

BraveHart · Post by **BraveHart** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:01 am

Quercus.....You can always use a tried and true method: "The K.I.S.S. Method"........
"Keep It Simple Starpilot!!"

.....if you have any doubts don't buy it, Enjoy your Renegades game and Have the best time Flying online with your Friends. When you want to try another Great Game buy Legends and enjoy all the cool things that have been brought to it....No need to over-think a easy decision as to buy Evochron Legends.....Worse comes to worse just do a coin toss

. I am very satisfied with Evochron Legends and so are a lot of other pilots.

"Enjoy Renegades and Good Flying to you"

Quercus · Post by **Quercus** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:30 am

Thanks for all the replies.
Just to clarify something, my friends are part of an online multi-gaming clan and they are spread across the U.K. and Europe (with a few in the U.S.), so getting them round to show them a game isn't viable. Also, not all of them are as keen on this sort of game as I am.
I managed to get a number of them interested in Freelancer when that came out, showed them Evochron Alliance when that appeared (and that didn't get anywhere because the demo was SP only), then was convinced to get ER when one of them bought that, but so far have completely failed to hook up with him online to play it at all.

I have mentioned EL to them but one of them (who was a big Jumpgate fan and is looking forward to Jumpgate Evolutions) looked at the demo and thought the graphics were nothing special.

EL has the promise to be a great game and it would be great if my quest to find a suitable successor to Freelancer multiplayer (we ran our own modded server to avoid the PvP rubbish) was finally over.

As for the discount question, well I wouldn't know about the yearly sporting games because I don't play that rubbish.
As for Crysis - that was an expansion, just marketed as a stand-alone game.

I'm not sure I want to invest more time in Renegades knowing that Legends is there and prettier, better, etc., etc. - that was the crux of my dilemma.

Exim · Post by **Exim** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:32 pm

Well... then think of this as an "expansion", marketed as a stand-alone game...

My friends are part of a civilisation and are all spread across a planet called earth... I too was part of an online multi-gaming clan [MC] to be exact and we too ran our own modded server and what else? I was part of the crew running it... You dont need to clarify who your friends are... it doesnt make any difference... of course, if your friend were prince harry or something, it may be a different story... If your previous clan mates went to another game... go with them... dont want to? then dont... play a new game and meet new friends...

If your friends didnt try EA cos demo was SP only and that made it all failed and sodded. I dont remember Freelancer had MP in its demo, so shouldnt that too have failed for you and your friends?

I am too looking very forward to JGE... and what difference does that make? None, Zip... I am still going to play EL anyway...

Basically, in short, until now I still have yet to see you speak of any "real" points... I am almost certain you will not get your free licence and you wont see MP in demo... but who knows you can never be 100% sure in life...

PS: I hope JSE will be free when it comes out of beta, otherwise that'd be a big fail too probably in your books. Let me tell you something about how the MMO business works... They charge you for the initial game client, then they charge you for subscription, then they charge you for updates, and it keeps going... and guess what? they will all be above $25.

I know, I know... I am a dream breaker... thats what I do... so please, I cordially invite you to come to space and release your anger. I promise I will be better than your friends, I wont hook up with you BUT I WILL be online...

Quercus · Post by **Quercus** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:31 pm

Exim, the difference with Freelancer (I don't think the demo was MP either) was that it looked sufficiently appealing as a mainstream game to get a few people interested in buying it without any coercion. The fact that some were playing it made it more popular for others.

I played JG myself and decided that I didn't like the grind while suffering at the hands of higher level players and watching my friends storm ahead of me level wise. I don't like the MMO model which is why I generally steer well clear of them.

I'm not asking for a free licence. I would say that (as the demo is time based anyway) it should allow MP access because that might convince more people to get involved. That is my experience.
I also think the time limit for the demo could be increased slightly. When it takes you ages to travel around even the starting system the time gets eaten up too quickly. Even jumping closer to a planet / space station then involves a lengthy period of flying into it to dock (unless you want to burn lots of fuel).

Anyway, I will buy the damned game and not just because you keep coaxing me to come and find you.

Next question is, what servers are out there? Is there a single main one or are you all split all over the place?

Final question, if I run a dedicated server, are they are server admin tools out there?