jump drive sequence?

connan · Post by **connan** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:20 pm

Hello,
i'm really happy to see this game growing up, flying legends now. Congratulations Vice and all others who are involved in!!
After playing a few hours legends and much more hours renegades, my most wanted feature is to see the suroundings (planets, sun, stars, stations) during a jump drive like in eve. This would give so much more orientation and imersion. In spite of this the jump drives could differ in speed rather than distance and should be renamed

As an alternative afterburner acceleration could be constant. Seems to cut of now at above 4k speed!?

Kindly regards
connan.

tha_rami · Post by **tha_rami** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:30 pm

You mean, a Fulcrum Drive with which you can smash into things because you just go really fast instead of instant warp?

InterFaced · Post by **InterFaced** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:39 pm

The warp effect in eve is one of the coolest things about that game, a simillar effect is in i-war2. seeing a planet go from tiny to huge, then with the planet taking up most of your view seeing a station go from tiny to huge is an awesome way to get a sense of scale.

I can also see how running into asteroids, planets, and stuff could get annoying with this system in evochron. Maybe a cool solution would be to make the jump intro/exit sequences more dramatic and have the ship quickly accelerate/decelerate over a rather large chunk of space?

Post by **Vice** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:46 pm

Yup, 'folding' space rather than just flying really fast.

Zenith · Post by **Zenith** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:53 pm

Which is actually the most plausible method of FTL travel, and may even be possible somewhere in our distant future.

verbosity · Post by **verbosity** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:55 pm

Originally posted by Vice
Yup, 'folding' space rather than just flying really fast.

The 'spice' must flow!

mcmad · Post by **mcmad** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:03 pm

"i shall not fear, fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the ......."

Daedalao · Post by **Daedalao** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:10 pm

"It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion."

Anyways, folding space instead of distorting space to travel faster... Who knows which of these would work better... I sure as heck don't! I do know that every time I engage my fulcrum drive I don't want to end up where the event horizon went!

"Right. Well, um, using layman's terms... Use a retaining magnetic field to focus a narrow beam of gravitons - these, in turn, fold space-time consistent with Weyl tensor dynamics until the space-time curvature becomes infinitely large, and you produce a singularity. Now, the singularity..."

[Edited on 2-24-2009 by Daedalao]

Blackthorne · Post by **Blackthorne** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:26 pm

We all know exactly on which stuff Evochron runs...and it sure als hell ain't the spice Melange...

"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
- The First Credo of Vice

The issue about fulcrum drives however remind me of something...way back then, the mantis drives supposedly suffered from infrequent malfunctions - what exactly *did* happen when this occured?

-Blackthorne

connan · Post by **connan** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:14 pm

Sounds like no chance?

Originally posted by Vice
Yup, 'folding' space rather than just flying really fast.

Yes but couldn't there some fancy warping effects showing the room around? Again i think eve its an good example how it could be. You build up such a wonderful space which is so hard to see.

I can also see how running into asteroids, planets, and stuff could get annoying with this system in evochron.

I would like to see a more challenging navigation

Maybe a cool solution would be to make the jump intro/exit sequences more dramatic and have the ship quickly accelerate/decelerate over a rather large chunk of space?

Yes that would be nice and all what is needed is allready there even the alignment procedure before jump.

So really no chance?

And what about the speed limit would that be an option?

[Edited on 2-24-2009 by connan]

tk7223 · Post by **tk7223** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:47 pm

Well...In this verse....you're moving with Fulcrum Drives and thrusters. Your speed limit is tied to how advanced a drive you can afford(really it's tied to distance and gives illusion of speed;)). I personally don't see the need for a different type of long distance travel given our current sandbox. Now...that might be something for Vice to add in the future as the known Evochron Universe grows...but personally I'm ok with our current Evochron Tech.

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:10 am

Sounds like you want a "cutscene" for the jumps. I don't think that's likely.

Post by **Vice** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:18 am

Yes but couldn't there some fancy warping effects showing the room around? Again i think eve its an good example how it could be. You build up such a wonderful space which is so hard to see.

You do go very fast right up until the 'folding space' warp occurs, well over 10K+.

I would like to see a more challenging navigation

You might, but that contrasts with the 'same' and 'easier' navigation other players want and expect.

So really no chance?

And what about the speed limit would that be an option?

http://www.starwraith.com/forum/viewtop ... 1#pid50016

If you lift the tolerances, you eliminate even more elements of risk and gameplay, particularly for multiplayer. It's kind of like giving a player a time compression feature. One player is moving along faster than anyone else and it's almost like they are in an entirely different universe because time and space is different for them. You can't really 'synchronize' a universe among players with such variations in time and speed possible for each individual player. Eluding detection and evasion tactics are done in the game through other methods.

tha_rami · Post by **tha_rami** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:22 am

Actually, I've been thinking I'd like the Fulcrum Drive from Star Wraith back. Just like the good old days, and you know why?

Because I played Evochron Alliance last week. It was so easy and fast to get from A to B, it opened my eyes to something that was lost in the scale and immersion.

For those that do not know, before the Fulcrum Jump Drive was created for Evochron, ships were equipped with a Fulcrum Drive that would just propel you at extreme speeds. By default, it was under the 'J' key - it would drain your fuel but you'd get places, fast. It was balanced a bit by also draining your shields and energy, and requiring full 'energy' before being usable.

Actually, we had something like that in Arvoch Conflict.

Well, that, please

.

[Edited on 25-2-2009 by tha_rami]

verbosity · Post by **verbosity** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:47 am

Originally posted by Blackthorne
The issue about fulcrum drives however remind me of something...way back then, the mantis drives supposedly suffered from infrequent malfunctions - what exactly *did* happen when this occured?

You got lost, far far away from home, I believe i might have a tag from one time i got lost, the coords are similar to andromeda ( 'cept not :p )

Aguila · Post by **Aguila** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:15 am

Originally posted by connan

Originally posted by Vice
Yup, 'folding' space rather than just flying really fast.
Yes but couldn't there some fancy warping effects showing the room around? Again i think eve its an good example how it could be. You build up such a wonderful space which is so hard to see.

There is no "room around" when a sci-fi game uses some variant of an instantaneous warp or folded space mechanism for interstellar travel. Here's a thought experiment to help visualize it:

Take a sheet of paper and draw two "X" marks at opposite sides of the paper, then draw a straight line between the two marks. There are ways to transit space in a straight line like that, but they run up against the lightspeed barrier.

The warp/folded space idea is like taking that sheet of paper and bending it into a "U" shape, where the two X marks are touching each other through the back side of the paper. Now, imagine traveling directly through the paper that way. It completely bypasses all the space on the line drawn between the two marks, so there is nothing to show during the animation. You jump, and you're there... nothing in-between.

connan · Post by **connan** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:47 am

Originally posted by Aguila
There is no "room around" when a sci-fi game uses some variant of an instantaneous warp or folded space mechanism for interstellar travel. Here's a thought experiment to help visualize it:

Take a sheet of paper and draw two "X" marks at opposite sides of the paper, then draw a straight line between the two marks. There are ways to transit space in a straight line like that, but they run up against the lightspeed barrier.

The warp/folded space idea is like taking that sheet of paper and bending it into a "U" shape, where the two X marks are touching each other through the back side of the paper. Now, imagine traveling directly through the paper that way. It completely bypasses all the space on the line drawn between the two marks, so there is nothing to show during the animation. You jump, and you're there... nothing in-between.

Yes, maybe. But if you refer to realism the speed limit is the bigger 'hack'. Would be a nice thing to have look at fuel before acceleration cause you will need the same amount left for slowing down or drifting endless through space. In that mannor i think you could even avoid the 'time compression' effect vice refers to.
Thx tha_rami for the hint i'll have a look at alliances.

tha_rami · Post by **tha_rami** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:12 am

It wasn't a hint, sorry. It was more like a feature I'd like to see added again myself

. The Fulcrum Drive, contrary to the Fulcrum Jump Drive, would be an amazing item to fly around with.

connan · Post by **connan** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:26 am

Originally posted by tha_rami
It wasn't a hint, sorry. It was more like a feature I'd like to see added again myself . The Fulcrum Drive, contrary to the Fulcrum Jump Drive, would be an amazing item to fly around with.

The hint for me was to have a look at alliances

But i see we are looking in the same direction

@vice: if its just one LOC could you make a compilation with the speed limit off? Only for testing, please

connan · Post by **connan** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:30 am

Originally posted by Eclipse
If EVE shows planets whizzing by during all of their jumps, I have to say that I would be complaining about that. There is a lot more empty space then filled space out there.

Its only for inter solar travel other than that they use jump gates also.

Zenith · Post by **Zenith** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:03 pm

Originally posted by Aguila
There is no "room around" when a sci-fi game uses some variant of an instantaneous warp or folded space mechanism for interstellar travel. Here's a thought experiment to help visualize it:

Take a sheet of paper and draw two "X" marks at opposite sides of the paper, then draw a straight line between the two marks. There are ways to transit space in a straight line like that, but they run up against the lightspeed barrier.

The warp/folded space idea is like taking that sheet of paper and bending it into a "U" shape, where the two X marks are touching each other through the back side of the paper. Now, imagine traveling directly through the paper that way. It completely bypasses all the space on the line drawn between the two marks, so there is nothing to show during the animation. You jump, and you're there... nothing in-between.

Indeed, this is a much more realistic approach to interstellar travel, as true FTL is actually impossible to achieve, due to the almost infinite increase in mass acquired at such speeds.

It seems that Vice has done his homework in this regard, departing from the stereotypical warp/hyper-drives that are usually present in most space movies and games.

InterFaced · Post by **InterFaced** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:38 pm

Originally posted by Eclipse
If EVE shows planets whizzing by during all of their jumps, I have to say that I would be complaining about that. There is a lot more empty space then filled space out there.

One of the only things I love about eve is that spacial bodies are realistically far appart, the way the warp system system works gives you a sense of this scale

Here's a video to show you what I'm talking about. At the end of the warp sequence the ringed planet is just about stationary... while the station speeds into view.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpcgpiCpeds

Its just a neat effect. Over the years I've payed for a month or two of EVE here and there just because I love the way the universe is rendered... too bad the rest of the game bores the hell out of me. (probably because I don't have enough spare time to enjoy a second job)

Evochron is the only other game that has similarly awesome huge universe with planets that aren't floating right next to each other in a skybox... an effect like this would help illustrate that.

Aguila · Post by **Aguila** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:18 pm

Originally posted by connan
Yes, maybe. But if you refer to realism the speed limit is the bigger 'hack'. Would be a nice thing to have look at fuel before acceleration cause you will need the same amount left for slowing down or drifting endless through space. In that mannor i think you could even avoid the 'time compression' effect vice refers to.

I agree that the speed limit is a hack. It's become the default design for this type of game, so combat happens at short range and the ships fly and fight in a way that's very similar to an air combat sim, with a little semi-Newtonian "sliding" added in. I blame George Lucas for this.

Several generations now have grown up thinking that Star Wars is what space combat should look like.

As I said further down in another thread here...

http://www.starwraith.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4150

...I'd like to see someone make a game that removed the speed cap. However it would only be fun (IMO) if the entire game was based around that, including the combat system. If only the speed cap was removed from Evochron, and nothing else was changed, then you'd have a "safe" transit mode where combat was impossible due to current artificial limits on sensors and weapon lock-on ranges. And the AI wouldn't know what to do with it either.

Now, give me a game where we have full Newtonian/relativistic travel (with powerful enough engines and inertia damping to handle it), with turnover burns to reduce speed, lightspeed delay affects for the sensors, ability to lock and fire weapons over insanely long ranges and having to match course with enemies at drastically different Delta-V.... yeah, I think that would be a blast.

But that's a totally different game. You don't get there just by removing the speed cap in Evochron, and I don't think most people playing this game want the close-range combat changed.

tha_rami · Post by **tha_rami** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:03 pm

No, I wouldn't change close-range combat. Not because Star Wars did that (heck, this was my first real space simulation after the original Elites) but because it just works so well. But, I honestly think having a jump drive to 'speed across' a sector would be good.

verbosity · Post by **verbosity** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:11 pm

I agree with rami, the drives in Arvoch were cool, and had good drawbacks to their usage, plus the more equipment we have available the better