[Suggestions] Fuel Converter/Heavy Frames

Blackthorne · Post by **Blackthorne** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:27 pm

Oh well, I hope I don't slaughter any holy cows with this one...

I've been fiddling around with the fuel converter recently. And in my opinion the thing just isn't worth the money and the equipment slot it needs.

"So what. Just don't buy it, then!"

Yeah, that's pretty much the conclusion I came to, but it breaks my heart to see such a time-tested piece of equipment (remember the fuel scoop?) go to waste, only to be used as a high-value commodity.

The main issues are that it takes up an equipment slot, which could be used for far more frequently used items like a repair system of cannon relay, that it requires certain environments to properly function (nebulae or suns, with suns being a potentially hazardous choice), costs a whopping 600K to 4000K credits (which translates to quite a bit of fuel!) and harvests at a snail pace. Seriously, mining oxygen is faster and nets more credits per minute than skimming fuel, and is safer to boot.
On top of that, it doesn't replenish counter measures, meaning it won't spare you the visit to the refueling menu in a station.

My suggestion would be to massively increase the fuel harvesting rate from suns and nebulae, to make the device a more attractive choice. Maybe even allow replenishment of countermeasures at a 1:10 ratio (1 CM per 10 units of harvested fuel).

As it is now, it feels superfluous at best.

Opinions? I'd love to hear a few thoughts on the matter.

On a related side note, the heavy frames seem completely obsolete now. Even with the heaviest of engines, they are still horribly slow, and require massive wings to retain some amount of responsiveness.

I didn't like the monoculture we had back in Renegades. It was Leviathan here, Leviathan there, with no alternatives in between. But right now, neither the Centurion nor the Leviathan seem like a viable frame for anything - the Centurion even less, since it has exactly the same speed per engine type as the Leviathan, with less space and durability.

Configuring them for combat nets you a terribly slow craft with abysmal acceleration but a rather durable hull.
Using them for hauling cargo leads to a few nasty surprise moments when trying to accelerate with 5 full bays of ore - the thing is barely moving, even with a class 10 engine. The only redeeming feature is that their price has been lowered from what was 100Mcr for a spaceworthy Leviathan in Renegades to about 9 MCr for one in Legends.

At least, that is my opinion. If anybody else has a different one, I'd like to hear it - I might not see the wood for the trees here.

I have no ideas on how to remedy this; however, I'd suggest to at least give the Centurion a small increase in top speed compared to the Leviathan in order to differentiate the frames a bit more - all the other frame pairs have higher speeds for the smaller model, after all.

-Blackthorne

[Edited on 12-2-2009 by Blackthorne]

Wasp89 · Post by **Wasp89** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:18 am

Countermeasures can be grabbed for free at any station. They do not cost anything when you buy fuel, and if you set to 0 the fuel amount you wish to purchase, you (obviously) won't purchase any fuel and WILL replenish your CM's. Stations are usually only a very short hop away, and you can easily jump to space stations by setting your pitch ladder to zero so that when you come out of your jump you will glide right in...

As for the Leviathan and Centurion, I prefer it now that they don't dominate. They are now more like the space equivalent of big semi trucks, with poor maneuverability, agility, acceleration...you get the idea. In short, these are not combat craft...there are a whole lineup of "new" craft just waiting for you to purchase, with speed and maneuverability that is borderline silly.

I think the added armor on the Leviathan and Centurion frames helps to offset the slowness, so you can take a couple more hits before your involuntary space walk, giving you (hopefully) either enough time to launch your own missiles to destroy your enemy, enough time to get up to speed, or enough time to plot and make your get-away jump.

I use a Renegade when I'm not in the cockpit of a military craft, as it is more along the lines of a UPS truck. Still pretty crummy acceleration when fully loaded, handles about as well as my grandma's car, but it is pretty durable and can hold it's own in a fight if it needs too.

Daedalao · Post by **Daedalao** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:23 am

Your grandma's car can hold it's on in a fight. That's pretty sweet. I was just talking to jackal about this same thing actually. The only problem is, that yes, while a leviathan can take a few more hits... I really don't see the need to fly it, which is why I fly a phoenix. But that's a story for another day. Anyways, my thought is that perhaps a newer player who hasn't flown any combat, might like to give it a go. What better way than to wait in a mobile bunker for your enemy to come to you? I do think that a heavier frame might be able to hold a cargo bay extender on one or more of its missile/torp pylons. This would work wonders making them the long haul trader frame of choice. (in my mind a cargo bay extender will allow you to carry more than 25 units per cargobay)

Keep in mind, I blow up a lot because I keep my energy management -5s/5e

[Edited on 2-13-2009 by Daedalao]

Wasp89 · Post by **Wasp89** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:24 am

Also, I might add: the pilot makes the ship--not the other way around.

Cougar_DK · Post by **Cougar_DK** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:28 am

As one of the new guys, I still don't have that much experience, so why should I buy a bigger frame that can carry the same (cargo wise) as a much lighter frame?

Its one of the things I like about X3, bigger freighters, means bigger cargo hulls, meaning more money..... But you are a easy target..... My choice

Post by **Vice** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:42 am

That's a good question. I think the simple answer would be because in order to make a small frame into a cargo ship, you have to sacrifice a lot of other components to make it that way, basically you have to gut the ship for cargo space. With a big frame, like a Leviathan, you get the big cargo bay, plus extremely heavy armor, plus over-powered shields, plus a high class engine, plus high class wings/thrusters, plus a big fuel tank. It's been a request to keep small frames somewhat competitive for certain trade roles as an option, but to achieve that, it does come with compromises that aren't present in a ship frame designed for hauling cargo with heavy defenses.

I agree on the fuel converter Blackthorne, its recovery rates will be increase about 250% for stars, 400% for nebulae.

tha_rami · Post by **tha_rami** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:14 am

I agree with all points raised

(the Centurion speed/Converter speed)

Cougar_DK · Post by **Cougar_DK** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:31 am

Originally posted by Vice
That's a good question. I think the simple answer would be because in order to make a small frame into a cargo ship, you have to sacrifice a lot of other components to make it that way, basically you have to gut the ship for cargo space. With a big frame, like a Leviathan, you get the big cargo bay, plus extremely heavy armor, plus over-powered shields, plus a high class engine, plus high class wings/thrusters, plus a big fuel tank. It's been a request to keep small frames somewhat competitive for certain trade roles as an option, but to achieve that, it does come with compromises that aren't present in a ship frame designed for hauling cargo with heavy defenses.

Thanks for the clarification Vice.