Reputation & Multiplayer

Goatnado386 · Post by **Goatnado386** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:47 pm

Yikes... something weird just happened.

I'm in a system with a 'Fair' reputation. I had the Navy and Energy at 100% and the Rebels and Guild at around 0% for a few hours straight. I just did a contract for the Navy and completed it. I docked at a station in the system and looked at the News console. Everything is back to 50% to 70% across the board.

What just happened? I didn't leave the area or anything.

Post by **Vice** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:48 pm

Maybe you missed the global reputation transition? If you saved after this change, you may see that your reputation in that system is now 'Good' rather than 'Fair' and the reputation sliders now indicate good to moderate threat levels without any hostiles in the area now.

Goatnado386 · Post by **Goatnado386** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:16 pm

It's still on 'Fair' in the system. Is this normal? I didn't do anything out of the ordinary. Just running back and forth between two stations in Olympus Delta and doing the occasional Navy/Energy contract.

I have two saved games. One right before this happened and one right after it happened. I don't know if you'd want to look at them or anything.

[Edited on 1-24-2009 by ncc386]

Post by **Vice** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:24 pm

Interesting, doesn't sound like it behaved like it should. I can take a look at the profile, might help me trace the steps of the cause.

[Edited on 1-24-2009 by Vice]

Goatnado386 · Post by **Goatnado386** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:34 pm

Awesome. I zipped up my saved game folder and sent it to your att email account. Should be around 72k in size. Thanks!

Post by **Vice** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:04 pm

Both are intact and saved properly, so it's not a data corruption issue. I reviewed the code base in relation to faction reputation resets and about the only ways it can occur is if you leave the reputation ID region, which is assigned to a numerical value, or if you are destroyed prior to a complete global reputation transition and respawn out of region or save outside of region later.

[Edited on 1-24-2009 by Vice]

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:34 pm

I just had a similar thing happen a few minutes ago...

(In SINGLE PLAYER, not MP, strictly speaking, not the right thread, but the same problem)

In Alpha Centauri, System Rep is Fair, I had Energy and Navy to 100%, Rebels 0%, Guild 8%.

I killed a Guild ship, got the message "You System Reputation Has Increased", (didn't save it at that point, should have), I immediately docked at a station and checked the News Console. System Rep was still Fair, and Faction Reps were reset to median-like values.

Probably a rare anomoly.

Post by **Vice** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:52 pm

That's ok after a shift in your global reputation as the faction values reset for the new global rep to indicate the new threat level percentages. At Fair, 70% might be good or moderate, 30% would be hostile. At good, the same 70% would be good, 30% would be moderate... as rough estimates. The faction value system is designed to be used as a gauge to give you an idea of the kind of threat levels you can expect to encounter for each global level.

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:07 pm

Originally posted by Vice
That's ok after a shift in your global reputation as the faction values reset for the new global rep to indicate the new threat level percentages. At Fair, 70% might be good or moderate, 30% would be hostile. At good, the same 70% would be good, 30% would be moderate... as rough estimates. The faction value system is designed to be used as a gauge to give you an idea of the kind of threat levels you can expect to encounter for each global level.

Yes, but what I mean is that the System rep was Fair, and after the shift it was still Fair (with a reset for Faction reps).

Post by **Vice** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:10 pm

Hmm, that's not how it should work then. Perhaps it's in the shifting routine, I'll recheck it.

tha_rami · Post by **tha_rami** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:55 pm

Killfest? You do have the option of not engaging those hostile forces if you don't want to. It's your choice if you want to engage in a killfest, but there are plenty of defensive options available to you to avoid combat if you just want to trade and explore... even in hostile space. Those options involve proper jump drive management, no-IDS high speed travel, cloaking devices, baiting, and bribing. You can do a lot of trade and exploration without ever having to fire a shot, but it does require a different set of tactics.

Actually, I'm a avid miner, and in my entire game of Renegades I only had to fire an Excalibur round three times, and never got killed by anything. My profile looked funny, though, with quite good stats and 3 kills total

Goatnado386 · Post by **Goatnado386** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:12 am

Yeah, I didn't leave the area or get killed and save the game. I have a station license at Port Delta which I use to buy ship gear at a discount. I sell the gear at the Olympus Delta station, in the same sector. I take a Navy contract out once in a while and splatter 4 baddies with my new flight skillz courtesy of this forum. I've also taken the occasional shipping contract with Energy. This is literally all I've done for the past two days of playing.

I didn't see it happen, but I suspect the transition may have happened during or shortly after my last Navy contract battle. I hope this helps!

Oh, and if you don't mind, can you drop me a private message on how to cheat Olympus Prime into the rep level above 'Fair'? After slaving over it for 3 or 4 hours, I'm not going to ragequit. I'd just as soon make it right myself.

[Edited on 1-25-2009 by ncc386]

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:16 am

I thought of something during an extended coffee break (though it should have occurred to me sooner).... something like this happened before, and we discussed it:

http://www.starwraith.com/forum/viewtop ... 913&page=1

(about half way down the page... search for this string, or a segment of it:
But here is something odd, and I don't understand it.
... probably just search for "odd", will take you right to the post)

(sorry - how do you extract the Post ID from the the specific post... in order to take you directly to the right # tag?)

It's still fairly fresh on my mind. Basically, in Cerulean, I destroyed the one critical ship that caused the shift in system reputation. As I recall, I DID check the news console and Cerulean had changed from Fair to Good. I did save the game at that point. I destroyed another two hostile ships "for the heck of it" (as I recall they were Guild ships). My nav point was already set to the station, but I was *in the area* (just a few Km away from the station). It pressed F2 as a "shortcut" to get me to the dock. I saved again (regrettably, on top of the previous save). Then checked the news console, and system rep had dropped to fair.

This situation from Alpha Centauri is almost identical. I destroyed the one ship that triggered the message "Your system reputation has increased". I was close to the starport, and my nav point was that very same starport. In this case, I did not check the news console, nor did I save (immediately after the rep shift). I pressed F2 to jump to the dock. THEN checked the News Console, to see that Alpha Centauri system rep was "still Fair".

The only ONE thing that is common to both situations, is that I was in the area of the starport, my nav set to that startport, and I practically jumped into the dock.

From a gameplaying/logic point of view, it shouldn't matter, but perhaps the routine that causes a loss of faction rep when you leave a system is somehow being triggered under these conditions; but it is also causing the System Rep to drop as well.

[Edited on 1-25-2009 by Storm]

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:26 am

Originally posted by ncc386
Oh, and if you don't mind, can you drop me a private message on how to cheat Olympus Prime into the rep level above 'Fair'? After slaving over it for 3 or 4 hours, I'm not going to ragequit. I'd just as soon make it right myself.

Hehehe - check my previous post.... that other thread that I am talking about. I was still fairly new to the game. I ended up having to work Cerulean to to Good again (for a second time). It was easier the second time around (more experience - and it DID give me more flight/combat experience).

IF there is a bug, it seems that the short term solution, is that when you get "The Message", immediately save, take no other actions, quit the game... then reload... the system rep should be fine (if I understand what is happening).

[Edited on 1-25-2009 by Storm]

Post by **Vice** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:27 am

I think that's it right there Storm. Likely in the comparison system. I will be working on that to try and eliminate the chances that it can occur. In the meantime, any time you see a change in your global reputation for a system, save immediately, then make any jumps you need to.

Post by **Vice** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:22 am

Ok, I've pinned down the issue that can cause this and wanted to ask you for your opinion on which solution you would prefer.

First, I can apply an auto-save when your global reputation changes. This has the benefit of protecting your new reputation automatically even if you do leave the local system and it updates your profile for the new reputation template. This is the more reliable solution.

The other option is I can apply a new integrity check to bypass the regional rep application. This has a small risk of introducing a potential flaw somewhere else, but can probably be added fairly safely. However, this method won't protect your new reputation if you leave the reputation region (only when jumping from in-system sectors, you would still need to manually save).

So personally, I think the auto-save option is the best way to go, but I want to run it by you first.

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:32 am

Ummm.... "run it by everybody" hehehe

To me, I think the problem is solved... (if only I had actually CHECKED the news console for the Alpha C situation... PROBABLY it DID shift to "Good"). Solution = save immediately after the shift, take NO actions, exit and reload. I WAS doing that, but got lazy.

But it sounds like the "Auto-Save" feature would be best (basically the same thing), as it doesn't introduce any "risks" to bring about unforseen effects. Players need to understand that if they take any actions after the autosave, and then manually save on top of it, they might inadvertantly (and without noticing) have a drop in system rep.

(BTW) (as long as we are talking about modifications, just to keep them in one place - already posted in another thread)...

... as long as you are at it, perhaps change the version number on the menu screen from white to some other color (to make it easier to read).

BraveHart · Post by **BraveHart** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:53 am

I vote for the Auto Save.....that seems the best option

Goatnado386 · Post by **Goatnado386** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:01 am

It has to be an integrity check. If it autosaves while you're in the middle of combat, it could leave a player in a situation where they die upon reload of their autosaved game. Like if you just killed a ship, your rep changed, it autosaves, and then 1 second later you are hit by a couple of missiles that were already launched. If you die and reload, you get hit by the missiles again and again and again. I'm sure now that I've introduced this concept, you can imagine other circumstances where the last thing you would want is an impromptu autosave.

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:04 am

Originally posted by ncc386
It has to be an integrity check. If it autosaves while you're in the middle of combat, it could leave a player in a situation where they die upon reload of their autosaved game. Like if you just killed a ship, your rep changed, it autosaves, and then 1 second later you are hit by a couple of missiles that were already launched. If you die and reload, you get hit by the missiles again and again and again. I'm sure now that I've introduced this concept, you can imagine other circumstances where the last thing you would want is an impromptu autosave.

Ah... play with the game a bit, and you will see that doesn't happen.

IE...

You just achieved an increase from "Moderate" to "Fair" ... or "Hostile" to "Moderate".

You are in an area with a few Reds in it.

Save.
Quit.
Reload.
Those EXACT reds will not be there (though some will probably show up after you reload).

I don't think the game stores SPECIFIC NPC ships in the save.

Post by **Vice** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:11 am

Storm is right, respawning restores you as a 'new entity' in the game's universe, it does not freeze time until you return. So you won't have to worry about scenarios like you describe. This was done intentionally for situations like that and to accomodate the 'living' universe environment of a unified multiplayer system (that is, the game's universe goes on even when you're not in it).

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:15 am

Vice, beat me to it with your post...

Just ran out to verify it...

My save was positioned to start over again in Alpha C... (a Fair system by default) docked, had not started destroying Rebel and Guild ships yet.

Left the dock, STARTED a fight to turn a YELLOW Rebel to Red (but did not finish it).... afterburned towards a Red Navy ship... manually saved when I was less than 100m from it.

Exited (but not all the way to Windows).... just relaunched... and those two hostiles are not there.

(edit)(I backed that game up before I did this, and restored it afterwords, of course.)

[Edited on 1-25-2009 by Storm]

Post by **Vice** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:04 am

Ok, here's the test build, the only changes are the addition of auto-save for global reputation changes and brighter text for the version number:

http://www.starwraith.com/evochron_renegadesb.exe

Should check out ok for this new function, then it will go 'live'.

[Edited on 1-25-2009 by Vice]

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:15 am

Originally posted by Vice
Ok, here's the test build, the only change is the addition of auto-save for global reputation changes:

http://www.starwraith.com/evochron_renegadesb.exe

Should check out ok for this new function, then it will go 'live'.

Okie Dokie... just downloaded it... I am in a favorable position to test it (I know I tend to ramble some, but I'll explain);

I had worked Aquila from Moderate to Good... verified (in a couple of ways) that the Global Rep held... backed that up BOTH on my hard drive backup location (for ER pilots) AND floppy...

... went to Alpha C this afternoon, where that incident happened...

... when it was determined (previous few posts) that there was a slight problem, I took my Floppy copy (in Aquila), flew to Alpha C, took NO actions, docked and saved. That is my CURRENT savegame (but I backed THAT up in a third location to be sure).

... so it shouldnt take long - I will work Alpha C from Fair to Good, Exit WITHOUT saving, then load the save, to see if it autosaved. Will post afterwords.

Goatnado386 · Post by **Goatnado386** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:52 am

Oh, good! Yeah, I never save unless I'm at a station. Unbreakable habit from playing X2 and X3. Autosave it is!