Reputation & Multiplayer

Goatnado386 · Post by **Goatnado386** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:26 am

Does your single player reputation follow you around in multiplayer? If I make friends with a system offline and I join someone's server, is that system still friendly or will it go back to the default reputation for me?

Thanks!

BraveHart · Post by **BraveHart** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:36 am

Nope....MP is set to the default reputation at all times......but this is good as it adds a challenge to the game and having friends help you in co-op is a blast

Goatnado386 · Post by **Goatnado386** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:05 am

Oh, that's too bad. Thanks, though.

[Edited on 1-23-2009 by ncc386]

Post by **Vice** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:24 am

You probably wouldn't want them to be effected while you're in multiplayer or altered by other player's reputations. If you never interacted with other human players online, particularly for coop, then it wouldn't be much of an issue, but what good would multiplayer be then? The info below is from the other thread related to this topic, so I'll post it here as well.

Why are reputations linked to set values for human players in multiplayer?

The 'fleet' entity system unites human players as a group in the game. In SP, the fleet system only involves NPC controlled ships and the threat system is based on that. Linking (via the trade console) lets you form a small fleet of ships to join you in combat. In MP, the fleet system supports human players, allowing you to link with others with clan ID's and with the link key (default numpad -). In order for that fleet linking system to properly effect ship-specific reputations (for the 'human' group) and to allow common AI behavior (helps keep bandwidth lean and maximize controller swapping efficiency) relative to the global reputation, the default reputations from the game's default universe are used and 'locked' in while you are in multiplayer.

The primary reason for this are the player requests for a 'no-penalty' environment in multiplayer. That is, players want to be able to take actions in multiplayer (coop or otherwise) that they normally would not take in single player and not have their reputation penalized for it. As an example, they may have to attack ships that they were normally allied with in single player due to circumstances in multiplayer caused by helping out other human players. They want the option to do that without harming the reputation they worked so hard to achieve in single player. This lets the player do whatever actions they want in multiplayer without worrying about hurting their (hard) earned single player reputations.

[Edited on 1-23-2009 by Vice]

verbosity · Post by **verbosity** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:21 am

I'm building a dynamic universe server for Legends. It will involve pilots having to log into www.verbsleagues.co.uk, to grab a customised version of the universe on a regular basis, but it will also hold a copy of the 'standard universe' for easy swapping over. hopefully this will not only allow different players to have different reps in an area, but will also allow for regular changes in the universe file ( as the vonari continue their assault more systems will come under their control, stations that have been FT'ed will disappear, only to be rebuilt at a later date etc). I'm also planning on a regular news service in the same vein as the universe file.

It will also not affect SP ( unless you forget to change the universe file back to the standard one ).

[Edited on 1-23-2009 by verbosity]

Goatnado386 · Post by **Goatnado386** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:21 pm

I wouldn't really mind having the reputations be linear during multiplayer if only the game didn't have goods guys and bad guys constantly warping in on, and trying to kill the player for no reason. No other space trader game does this, so it feels very weird. If only the player was naturally on good terms with the Navy, Energy, and Mining, and on moderate to bad terms with the Guild and Rebels. Then, when the player travels to a tougher system, the ships for all sides are simply better chassis, which is a feature that is already implemented. This would still allow the player to pick sides, like on any other open-ended space game, by shooting ships or running contracts for the side he wants to switch to. For example, want to be a pirate? Kill the good guys and do contracts for the bad guys. Soon, the bad guys will be less hostile and the good guys will, of course, turn red in every system.

I can understand having pirates that spawn around jump gates and asteroid fields. Having pirates spawn near these locations (and jump in on the player there) is perfectly fine and it creates a risk for traders and miners. Also, take into consideration the fact that if the player is a bad guy, then instead of worrying about pirate spawns near gates, he now has to worry about Navy spawns near starbases and planets. It works both ways.

But it's really just the notion that the local law enforcement and the otherwise good or neutral organizations immediately want to kill all players that are passing through. It makes matters worse when the game spawns them near the player. If they aren't all trying to kill the player, then the player gets a chance to see what would appear to be a living world where the Navy tries to kill the Rebels and Guild, and the Rebels and Guild try to pray upon Energy and Miner ships for profit.

It just doesn't make any sense to me that they *all* drop what they're doing, warp over, and try to kill all the people who want to pass through or trade in their system.

[Edited on 1-23-2009 by ncc386]

BraveHart · Post by **BraveHart** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:30 pm

He-He-He....Well you are in the roll of a mercenary when you play Evochron Renegades and a lot of the Hostiles attack "Guns for Hire"......at least it keeps you on your toes

Post by **Vice** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:02 pm

That is peculiar ncc386, your description doesn't even sound like how the game works. Perhaps I'm not understanding you or vice versa. Reputations, both global and faction, still apply in multiplayer. So you can be allied with a certain faction which won't attack you while another will. You can also effect a short term (temporary while you are in multiplayer in that system) reputation effect by attacking one group or another, causing you to encounter more hostiles from that group as word spread of your activities. The only difference is these reputations and shifts are linked between human players and do not effect your single player reputations.

But it's really just the notion that the local law enforcement and the otherwise good or neutral organizations immediately want to kill all players that are passing through.

It just doesn't make any sense to me that they *all* drop what they're doing, warp over, and try to kill all the people who want to pass through or trade in their system.

That would not make sense. You should not be getting attacked by green or yellow AI ships at all. Depending on your reputation, you should be getting attacked by many or most ships in a particular system if you reputation is low enough. Did you perhaps jump into a system that a human player was already in and who may have been attacking allied ships in that system? If just about all ships drop what they are doing to attack you and are at a red threat level, then you either entered a very hostile rated system or another player has effected the reputations in that system.

And for this:

Also, take into consideration the fact that if the player is a bad guy, then instead of worrying about pirate spawns near gates, he now has to worry about Navy spawns near starbases and planets. It works both ways.

That's actually how it does work.

Goatnado386 · Post by **Goatnado386** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:04 pm

Originally posted by Vice
That is peculiar ncc386, your description doesn't even sound like how the game works. Perhaps I'm not understanding you or vice versa. Reputations, both global and faction, still apply in multiplayer. So you can be allied with a certain faction which won't attack you while another will. You can also effect a short term (temporary while you are in multiplayer in that system) reputation effect by attacking one group or another, causing you to encounter more hostiles from that group as word spread of your activities. The only difference is these reputations and shifts are linked between human players and do not effect your single player reputations.

But it's really just the notion that the local law enforcement and the otherwise good or neutral organizations immediately want to kill all players that are passing through.

It just doesn't make any sense to me that they *all* drop what they're doing, warp over, and try to kill all the people who want to pass through or trade in their system.
That would not make sense. You should not be getting attacked by green or yellow AI ships at all. Depending on your reputation, you should be getting attacked by many or most ships in a particular system if you reputation is low enough. Did you perhaps jump into a system that a human player was already in and who may have been attacking allied ships in that system? If just about all ships drop what they are doing to attack you and are at a red threat level, then you either entered a very hostile rated system or another player has effected the reputations in that system.

And for this:

Also, take into consideration the fact that if the player is a bad guy, then instead of worrying about pirate spawns near gates, he now has to worry about Navy spawns near starbases and planets. It works both ways.
That's actually how it does work.

But that's not how it works. I get attacked by Navy without committing a crime, not only near stations, but also stargates, asteroid fields, and basically anywhere and everywhere. Basically, what I'm saying is that, for example, right now I'm in Olympus Delta. The Guild and Rebels ships are more difficult to kill, so that's not a problem. I understand its a harder system then Sapphire. When I look at my reputation, it says Fair. When I look at my reputation with the Navy it's in the upper 70% to mid 80%. In other words, I should not be viewed as a criminal.

I own a station license in that system, as well. As I sit in my station, I see green and yellow ships pop in. Some are Energy. Some are Navy. Then I see a couple of red Navy ships pop in that fly directly to my position and attempt to kill me. That is completely illogical. Cops can't decide based on mood or personal preference whether or not they should kill a civilian.

So I take a contract for the Navy and warp out to the nav point. While flying towards 4 bad guy ships, I notice on my radar that a few more red Navy ships have arrived and are going full-throttle toward my position, presumably to kill me for no reason, yet again.

So, while trying to fight these 4 bad guys, I'm being attacked by the local Navy whom which I am on good terms with. This may not be the way the game works, but it's the way it appears to me.

All I'm saying is that instead of using the faction reputation bar as a (assumed) linear percentage chance of having the randomly spawned ships turn red, yellow, or green on the player, WHY OH WHY don't we just have a certain percentage that makes the Navy (specifically the local police) just leave the player alone? I'd suggest anything above 75% should yield absolutely no red Navy ships. Having the occasional red Navy ship in a quiet system is not fun. When I leave a station (because I just trade) I like to take my time and figure out where I'm going next. Meanwhile, Navy, Energy, Miner, Guild, and Rebel ships all appear at random around me. Normally not a big deal, but when a red police ship appears and b-lines it to my location with missiles and guns blazing, it makes the gameplay unneccessarily tense, IMO. If I was an active pirate or supporter of the bad guys, then I'd understand the occasional cop trying to take a shot at me.

I mean, I shouldn't have to prove myself to the police in order not to be assassinated by them, right? Safer systems mean more police ship spawns, less pirate spawns (and less powerful ships) whereas dangerous systems mean less police spawns and more pirate spawns (with more powerful ships). The other 'guilds' could use the standard rep percentage-based hostility.

I'm having a hard enough time dying from Rebel ships every time I take a contract. I can't even play the game if the Navy, whom hired me, is also going to shoot at me when I should be on decent terms with them. And by hard I mean I can't complete a 4x enemy naval contract because I get a continual steam of point-blank missiles shot at me as soon as I start tailing someone. I'll post a link to a YouTube video to demonstrate how godawful I am at playing ER in a little while. In my own defense, I am gunning down all the missiles that I can tell where they're coming from. I also use countermeasures when the missiles are behind me. Missiles don't seem to be attracted to countermeasures at all in this game. They just seem to blow up when they run into one. So, when someone about 800m underneath me fires a missile and I hold down the countermeasures button, the missile blows me up regardless.

[Edited on 1-23-2009 by ncc386]

Goatnado386 · Post by **Goatnado386** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:23 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1bryEAt3V0

Behold! My suckiness is unequalled!

I did a little better just now. I drove in a triangle around the enemy ships and eventually, they ran out of missiles. I just don't have the most maneuverable ship because I'm geared for trading. So I got shot to pieces with guns. hehe

EDIT: I think there should be an option for HD appearing on that link, soon. I uploaded the video in the correct format to qualify for HD720, so if you can't see what's going on, check back after 10 or 15 minutes and there should be an option on that pages that says "Watch in HD Format".

[Edited on 1-23-2009 by ncc386]

Post by **Vice** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:34 pm

But that's not how it works. I get attacked by Navy without committing a crime

Ok, but which Navy in which system? Every system has its own dedicated Navy and some will be hostile to you and some will be friendly, depending on your reputation within that system. That is true online or offline.

When I look at my reputation, it says Fair. When I look at my reputation with the Navy it's in the upper 70% to mid 80%. In other words, I should not be viewed as a criminal.

'Fair' is not 'Good' and 70% is not 100%. At those levels, you will encounter some Navy allied ships (either mercenaries employed by the Navy or Navy owned vessels) that will be hostile to you. As many as 1/3 or more of the Navy allied ships you encounter could potentially be hostile.

I own a station license in that system, as well. As I sit in my station, I see green and yellow ships pop in. Some are Energy. Some are Navy. Then I see a couple of red Navy ships pop in that fly directly to my position and attempt to kill me. That is completely illogical. Cops can't decide based on mood or personal preference whether or not they should kill a civilian.

Navy allied ships are not cops, each ship can have independent motives against or for you (even the cargo you carry can determine how a ship will treat you). And it takes a 'Good' reputation to avoid encountering any hostile ships from a given faction/group. Your faction reputations and global reputation are simply a guide to gauge your chances on encountering hostile, moderate, or friendly ships. Having a 'Fair' reputation with a 70% faction reputation does not mean you will encounter 100% friendly ships from that faction 100% of the time.

With that said, you won't likely encounter too many hostile Navy ships with that rating, maybe just one or two. So if it's important to you to avoid any combat in a 'Fair' system like that, consider bribing the few hostile ships you encounter (for the Navy group at least). At that reputation level, it may only take one or two to effect enough reputation credit to avoid any further hostile Navy ships. Could be a few thousand credits well spent if you want to be on friendly terms with that faction.

So I take a contract for the Navy and warp out to the nav point. While flying towards 4 bad guy ships, I notice on my radar that a few more red Navy ships have arrived and are going full-throttle toward my position, presumably to kill me for no reason, yet again.

Now that is interesting. When was the last time you played in multiplayer? 1.988 has some major changes to the reputation system and one of them should result in better alignment of ship affiliations with contract objectives. Prior to 1.988, this may not be very well aligned.

All I'm saying is that instead of using the faction reputation bar as a (assumed) linear percentage chance of having the randomly spawned ships turn red, yellow, or green on the player, WHY OH WHY don't we just have a certain percentage that makes the Navy (specifically the local police) just leave the player alone? I'd suggest anything above 75% should yield absolutely no red Navy ships.

The global reputation level is what directly relates to faction specific frequencies. A 70% level at 'Fair' means you are going to encounter hostile ships. 75% doesn't equal 100%, but at a 'Good' level, 75% will mean you won't likely encounter any hostile Navy ships and prehaps about 25% of them will simply be 'moderate'. At 'Fair', 75% might be on good terms with you, but the rest can potentially be hostile.

I hope that explains it a little further. I can certainly understand how difficult it can be at first and I am definitely interested in seeing your YouTube video. I suspect that the difficulty will soon ease up as you continue to master drifting and missile evasion. From your description, it's possible that you are making overly sharp turns, which are bleeding off your speed enough to make you a 'sitting duck' for hostiles to easily fire missiles at you at close range and it leaves your countermeasures little time to be effective. If you keep your approach angles wide and speed high (above 1000 or so most of the time), it should make combat easier to manage and give your CM's more time to decoy a missile. If you're playing online, there's probably a few players around that can offer specific advice and aid in practicing against AI or be targets for you. Please keep me/us posted.

[Edited on 1-23-2009 by Vice]

BraveHart · Post by **BraveHart** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:36 pm

He He....it seems your aiming is a bit off to me, try concentrating on your where your cannon fire is going and increase your speed with afterburners to out fly the Hostiles....when missiles are being fired at you do a arch of a turn and maintain a fast speed using after burners while you deploy your cm's. if you are being over powered try flying as fast as you can using after burners then turn IDS off turn around and watch the hostiles chase you...then use your missiles and gun fire adjusting your rearward speed by turning the the IDS on and off or slow down when they are all lined up then offset your approach and fly towards them and fire your missiles when your about 900 away...this is a good jousting tactic. "Good Luck"

Post by **Vice** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:08 pm

Just watched your video, always makes things easier to understand

Nice work on repositioning your jump point to give yourself more time to recharge and prepare. After you arrive, you do a great job on your first pass. You hit the afterburner at the right distance, shoot at the inbound missiles and change your trajectory away from the missile as you fly by (cutting it pretty close

Then you'll notice that after the pass, you make a sharp ~180 degree turn to aim at one of the ships, resulting in a severe loss of speed (drops to what looks like below -1000). You hit the afterburner, but it's basically too late. Your speed picks up just at the time more inbound missiles are approaching. You avoid some missiles with CM's due to range, but do take some initial damage from a missile and some gunfire. Your speed picks up, but remains in the triple digits for a while and you get caught with several missiles getting fired at you in sequence. So for that example, loss of speed resulted in an increased level of vulnerability. Overall though, a good run, with a few tactics to keep your speed high, a situation like that will be easier to manage.

Goatnado386 · Post by **Goatnado386** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:43 pm

Originally posted by Vice
But that's not how it works. I get attacked by Navy without committing a crime
Ok, but which Navy in which system? Every system has its own dedicated Navy and some will be hostile to you and some will be friendly, depending on your reputation within that system. That is true online or offline.

When I look at my reputation, it says Fair. When I look at my reputation with the Navy it's in the upper 70% to mid 80%. In other words, I should not be viewed as a criminal.
'Fair' is not 'Good' and 70% is not 100%. At those levels, you will encounter some Navy allied ships (either mercenaries employed by the Navy or Navy owned vessels) that will be hostile to you. As many as 1/3 or more of the Navy allied ships you encounter could potentially be hostile.

I own a station license in that system, as well. As I sit in my station, I see green and yellow ships pop in. Some are Energy. Some are Navy. Then I see a couple of red Navy ships pop in that fly directly to my position and attempt to kill me. That is completely illogical. Cops can't decide based on mood or personal preference whether or not they should kill a civilian.
Navy allied ships are not cops, each ship can have independent motives against or for you (even the cargo you carry can determine how a ship will treat you). And it takes a 'Good' reputation to avoid encountering any hostile ships from a given faction/group. Your faction reputations and global reputation are simply a guide to gauge your chances on encountering hostile, moderate, or friendly ships. Having a 'Fair' reputation with a 70% faction reputation does not mean you will encounter 100% friendly ships from that faction 100% of the time.

With that said, you won't likely encounter too many hostile Navy ships with that rating, maybe just one or two. So if it's important to you to avoid any combat in a 'Fair' system like that, consider bribing the few hostile ships you encounter (for the Navy group at least). At that reputation level, it may only take one or two to effect enough reputation credit to avoid any further hostile Navy ships. Could be a few thousand credits well spent if you want to be on friendly terms with that faction.

So I take a contract for the Navy and warp out to the nav point. While flying towards 4 bad guy ships, I notice on my radar that a few more red Navy ships have arrived and are going full-throttle toward my position, presumably to kill me for no reason, yet again.
Now that is interesting. When was the last time you played in multiplayer? 1.988 has some major changes to the reputation system and one of them should result in better alignment of ship affiliations with contract objectives. Prior to 1.988, this may not be very well aligned.

All I'm saying is that instead of using the faction reputation bar as a (assumed) linear percentage chance of having the randomly spawned ships turn red, yellow, or green on the player, WHY OH WHY don't we just have a certain percentage that makes the Navy (specifically the local police) just leave the player alone? I'd suggest anything above 75% should yield absolutely no red Navy ships.
The global reputation level is what directly relates to faction specific frequencies. A 70% level at 'Fair' means you are going to encounter hostile ships. 75% doesn't equal 100%, but at a 'Good' level, 75% will mean you won't likely encounter any hostile Navy ships and prehaps about 25% of them will simply be 'moderate'. At 'Fair', 75% might be on good terms with you, but the rest can potentially be hostile.

I hope that explains it a little further. I can certainly understand how difficult it can be at first and I am definitely interested in seeing your YouTube video. I suspect that the difficulty will soon ease up as you continue to master drifting and missile evasion. From your description, it's possible that you are making overly sharp turns, which are bleeding off your speed enough to make you a 'sitting duck' for hostiles to easily fire missiles at you at close range and it leaves your countermeasures little time to be effective. If you keep your approach angles wide and speed high (above 1000 or so most of the time), it should make combat easier to manage and give your CM's more time to decoy a missile. If you're playing online, there's probably a few players around that can offer specific advice and aid in practicing against AI or be targets for you. Please keep me/us posted.

[Edited on 1-23-2009 by Vice]

Why would we want each individual system to have a murderous, marauding Navy that may attack me a little or may attack me a lot. I can understand that gameplay tactic when talking about about pirates or other bad guys. But, I am in complete disagreement with having the local Navy of each system trying to kill the player without having the player first commit a string of crimes.

I understand that 'Fair' isn't 'Good'. I'm just saying that I think the reputation rules should be different when it comes to law enforcement. I'd like to see just the Navy start off at 100% and require the player to have to damage that relationship through murder, piracy, or taking contracts with their enemies.

Oh. Wait, you don't want the Navy to be the local law enforcement? Why not? Let's change it! Make the Navy the cops for each system and make the default attitude toward the player as 'Good'. If you did that, it would make players who are NOT playing to have a killfest (people like me who trade and explore) very happy without interfering with everyone else's ability to have large dogfights. There's always highly populated, hostile systems and/or the contract system, you know.

I did try to bribe the Navy today, as a matter of fact. Unfortunately, the communication range of the game puts me well within their missile and gun sights. I'm dead before I can figure out what I'm looking at on the F4 menu. If the game were to pause during that time, or if communication could take place outside of missile range, I'd be a lot happier.

Ah, there you go. I'm not using 1.988 because I was not aware of its existance. Is 1.988 a stable release or a preview release? I guess I'll have to download it and check it out.

But ships warp in so frequently that its usually a matter of less than 10 seconds before a red Navy ship or two appear on my radar. Maybe if they didn't spawn so often?

Yes, yes, I do understand a little better now. You're absolutely right. The game has some mechanics that I don't 100% follow. However, don't take any of my posts to be attacks on you or your creation. Evochron Renegades is an awesome game. Maybe it's just a little too hard for me; too combat-oriented. When you see my YouTube video, you'll understand. I like to trade and explore. With the ability to hire crew members, fly around on planets, buy stations, bribe people, hire wingmen, design my own ship, and warp to any place I like, it really should be the perfect space game for me. I just hit that little bump of all the reds warping in on my position when I just want to be left alone or cruise around peacefully. I like the idea of knowing what the bad areas are so if I want to fight, I'll go there or take out a contract. But I fully understand that my way is not neccessarily the right way. It's just *A* way.

Yes, yes, actually, that is exactly what I'm doing. I'm turning too sharp. Now my ship is completely designed to be a trade vessel. I'm all about cargo space and warp range. I think my top speed is about 940. Are you sure 1000 is good enough? They seem to shoot me to pieces unless I stand on the afterburner the whole time. Your advice is much appreciated. Perhaps you guys are just so good at the game that you forget just how advanced much of your 'basic' skills can be to people like me who don't obsess over space combat.

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:16 pm

There are reasons why things are the way they are. I was confused by them too at first (I've been playing since 5 january). Read this:

http://www.starwraith.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1526

... and realize that ER is, in a way, like real life. Crossing into another system is almost like visiting another country. Going to Thuban for the first time, it's like going to Jamaica with a sign on your back that says "Rob Me Im a Stoopid Naive Tourist, Just Passing Through Take All My Stuff". Even the local cops would see you as a "mark". UNLESS you stay a while and work, and earn everyone's respect.

... also the more you play the better you will get. Its gotten to the point where I rarely get destroyed, unless I do something "stoopid".

I think I've settled on the Phoenix being my favorite ship, BTW. The first time, I "played the game all the way through its secrets", eventually working up to a Leviathan. I've started over now... experimented with a Striker, Phoenix, and Hunter. Phoenix seems to have the overall best flight dynamics and loadout capabilities for me.

[Edited on 1-23-2009 by Storm]

Post by **Vice** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:42 pm

Why would we want each individual system to have a murderous, marauding Navy that may attack me a little or may attack me a lot. I can understand that gameplay tactic when talking about about pirates or other bad guys. But, I am in complete disagreement with having the local Navy of each system trying to kill the player without having the player first commit a string of crimes.

Here's an explanation. If you were affiliated with the US Navy in 1944, why would the Japanese Navy attack you, but the US Navy not? It's the same reason(s) many Richton and Federation territories (and their Navies) will attack you, but Alliance/Sapphire's won't.

I understand that 'Fair' isn't 'Good'. I'm just saying that I think the reputation rules should be different when it comes to law enforcement. I'd like to see just the Navy start off at 100% and require the player to have to damage that relationship through murder, piracy, or taking contracts with their enemies.

We're not necessarily talking about local law enforcement, we're talking about military forces. If you are from an opposing territory (or allied with it), you will be attacked by the enemy of that territory. By default, you are from Sapphire, an Alliance territory and your reputations start out as allied to that group. This automatically makes you the enemy of forces that oppose the Alliance.

Oh. Wait, you don't want the Navy to be the local law enforcement? Why not? Let's change it! Make the Navy the cops for each system and make the default attitude toward the player as 'Good'. If you did that, it would make players who are NOT playing to have a killfest (people like me who trade and explore) very happy without interfering with everyone else's ability to have large dogfights. There's always highly populated, hostile systems and/or the contract system, you know.

Killfest? You do have the option of not engaging those hostile forces if you don't want to. It's your choice if you want to engage in a killfest, but there are plenty of defensive options available to you to avoid combat if you just want to trade and explore... even in hostile space. Those options involve proper jump drive management, no-IDS high speed travel, cloaking devices, baiting, and bribing. You can do a lot of trade and exploration without ever having to fire a shot, but it does require a different set of tactics.

I did try to bribe the Navy today, as a matter of fact. Unfortunately, the communication range of the game puts me well within their missile and gun sights. I'm dead before I can figure out what I'm looking at on the F4 menu. If the game were to pause during that time, or if communication could take place outside of missile range, I'd be a lot happier.

This is part of that defensive tactic set I am referring to. I think the next step to take is learning how to set up a high speed pass with the IDS off and a perpendicular flight path, giving you time to arrange a bribe without risk of getting hit and before you go out of range.

Ah, there you go. I'm not using 1.988 because I was not aware of its existance. Is 1.988 a stable release or a preview release? I guess I'll have to download it and check it out.

Yes, it should be stable and is an official release.

But ships warp in so frequently that its usually a matter of less than 10 seconds before a red Navy ship or two appear on my radar. Maybe if they didn't spawn so often?

I've been 'testing the waters' with that exact modification in the new game and it seems to have worked out well, so I'll likely back-port that system into Renegades as well. The rate of warping in is pretty high in populated areas and should probably be toned down.

Yes, yes, I do understand a little better now. You're absolutely right. The game has some mechanics that I don't 100% follow. However, don't take any of my posts to be attacks on you or your creation. Evochron Renegades is an awesome game. Maybe it's just a little too hard for me; too combat-oriented. When you see my YouTube video, you'll understand. I like to trade and explore. With the ability to hire crew members, fly around on planets, buy stations, bribe people, hire wingmen, design my own ship, and warp to any place I like, it really should be the perfect space game for me. I just hit that little bump of all the reds warping in on my position when I just want to be left alone or cruise around peacefully. I like the idea of knowing what the bad areas are so if I want to fight, I'll go there or take out a contract. But I fully understand that my way is not neccessarily the right way. It's just *A* way.

I know you're not attacking me or my game, you are bringing up very valid points about gameplay and how it relates to your preferences and objectives you are most interested in. Nothing wrong with that at all, in fact, that kind of discussion can often bring up areas that need to be fine tuned or changed in the game. To find those 'need to be tuned/changed' elements is an important goal of mine so I can make Evochron a better game. So I appreciate this kind of discussion a lot. And just because I post a counter-point does not necessarily mean I disagree with you or I'm not considering your viewpoint, I often post opposing points to explore an idea/concept more in detail from a variety of angles (potential positive or negative effects on gameplay for example). I'll also often try to explain something further, or offer solutions, including advice on tactics/methods you can use if you've encountered a hurdle in gameplay. For example:

Spoiler Alert:

You can adjust the reputations of various systems in the game to be more friendly if you just don't want to deal with hostile ships at all or at least fewer of them. For details on this, just let me know and I'll send them over in a u2u.

And yes, depending on conditions, over 1000 can be better, over 3000 can often protect you from inbound missiles if they don't get in front of you.

Good discussion, thanks.

[Edited on 1-23-2009 by Vice]

Goatnado386 · Post by **Goatnado386** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:19 pm

Originally posted by Vice
Why would we want each individual system to have a murderous, marauding Navy that may attack me a little or may attack me a lot. I can understand that gameplay tactic when talking about about pirates or other bad guys. But, I am in complete disagreement with having the local Navy of each system trying to kill the player without having the player first commit a string of crimes.
Here's an explanation. If you were affiliated with the US Navy in 1944, why would the Japanese Navy attack you, but the US Navy not? It's the same reason(s) many Richton and Federation territories (and their Navies) will attack you, but Alliance/Sapphire's won't.

I understand that 'Fair' isn't 'Good'. I'm just saying that I think the reputation rules should be different when it comes to law enforcement. I'd like to see just the Navy start off at 100% and require the player to have to damage that relationship through murder, piracy, or taking contracts with their enemies.
We're not necessarily talking about local law enforcement, we're talking about military forces. If you are from an opposing territory (or allied with it), you will be attacked by the enemy of that territory. By default, you are from Sapphire, an Alliance territory and your reputations start out as allied to that group. This automatically makes you the enemy of forces that oppose the Alliance.

Oh. Wait, you don't want the Navy to be the local law enforcement? Why not? Let's change it! Make the Navy the cops for each system and make the default attitude toward the player as 'Good'. If you did that, it would make players who are NOT playing to have a killfest (people like me who trade and explore) very happy without interfering with everyone else's ability to have large dogfights. There's always highly populated, hostile systems and/or the contract system, you know.
Killfest? You do have the option of not engaging those hostile forces if you don't want to. It's your choice if you want to engage in a killfest, but there are plenty of defensive options available to you to avoid combat if you just want to trade and explore... even in hostile space. Those options involve proper jump drive management, no-IDS high speed travel, cloaking devices, baiting, and bribing. You can do a lot of trade and exploration without ever having to fire a shot, but it does require a different set of tactics.

I did try to bribe the Navy today, as a matter of fact. Unfortunately, the communication range of the game puts me well within their missile and gun sights. I'm dead before I can figure out what I'm looking at on the F4 menu. If the game were to pause during that time, or if communication could take place outside of missile range, I'd be a lot happier.
This is part of that defensive tactic set I am referring to. I think the next step to take is learning how to set up a high speed pass with the IDS off and a perpendicular flight path, giving you time to arrange a bribe without risk of getting hit and before you go out of range.

Ah, there you go. I'm not using 1.988 because I was not aware of its existance. Is 1.988 a stable release or a preview release? I guess I'll have to download it and check it out.
Yes, it should be stable and is an official release.

But ships warp in so frequently that its usually a matter of less than 10 seconds before a red Navy ship or two appear on my radar. Maybe if they didn't spawn so often?
I've been 'testing the waters' with that exact modification in the new game and it seems to have worked out well, so I'll likely back-port that system into Renegades as well. The rate of warping in is pretty high in populated areas and should probably be toned down.

Yes, yes, I do understand a little better now. You're absolutely right. The game has some mechanics that I don't 100% follow. However, don't take any of my posts to be attacks on you or your creation. Evochron Renegades is an awesome game. Maybe it's just a little too hard for me; too combat-oriented. When you see my YouTube video, you'll understand. I like to trade and explore. With the ability to hire crew members, fly around on planets, buy stations, bribe people, hire wingmen, design my own ship, and warp to any place I like, it really should be the perfect space game for me. I just hit that little bump of all the reds warping in on my position when I just want to be left alone or cruise around peacefully. I like the idea of knowing what the bad areas are so if I want to fight, I'll go there or take out a contract. But I fully understand that my way is not neccessarily the right way. It's just *A* way.
I know you're not attacking me or my game, you are bringing up very valid points about gameplay and how it relates to your preferences and objectives you are most interested in. Nothing wrong with that at all, in fact, that kind of discussion can often bring up areas that need to be fine tuned or changed in the game. To find those 'need to be tuned/changed' elements is an important goal of mine so I can make Evochron a better game. So I appreciate this kind of discussion a lot. And just because I post a counter-point does not necessarily mean I disagree with you or I'm not considering your viewpoint, I often post opposing points to explore an idea/concept more in detail from a variety of angles (potential positive or negative effects on gameplay for example). I'll also often try to explain something further, or offer solutions, including advice on tactics/methods you can use if you've encountered a hurdle in gameplay. For example:

Spoiler Alert:

You can adjust the reputations of various systems in the game to be more friendly if you just don't want to deal with hostile ships at all or at least fewer of them. For details on this, just let me know and I'll send them over in a u2u.

And yes, depending on conditions, over 1000 can be better, over 3000 can often protect you from inbound missiles if they don't get in front of you.

Good discussion, thanks.

[Edited on 1-23-2009 by Vice]

Ah, well, then let me voice my opinion that I do not believe the player should be associated with any faction by default. Unless the player is IN the Navy, it's not really fair to have all the militaries of other systems automatically try to kill me as I should be a civilian. There aren't many countries where a civilian can go and actually be shot on sight by their local military. That's why I'm pleading for the Navy to change from per-system to universal, interstellar police. I think it would really enhance the game experience for everyone. The one thing I keep reading on the forums from everyone is the level of confusion from being attacked by all factions by most of the systems travelled to. It gives a certain sense of security and comfort being able to identify some sort of authority figure faction when entering a new system. Even if entering the new system ends in the player's death from pirate factions or the like, knowing there were police present somewhere somehow makes it easier to accept defeat. I dunno, maybe it's just me.

I think you've handled the rest of my concerns, save for the communication range issue. Please consider increasing the communication range to scanner range. This will help the fun factor immensely as people will be able to calmy speak with other NPC pilots without fear of being killed in mid-sentence or freaking out and hitting the wrong buttons or clicking on the wrong icons while under pressure.

I just downloaded the latest version. I'll try it out soon! Thanks for letting me know!

Thank god for that! I'm glad you're considering toning down the spawn rate for ships in the sectors.

Okay, new question, what happens if I run Rebel/Guild contracts and kill all Navy ships over an extended period of time? How does that affect my overall reputation? Do the Rebels/Guild become green permanently?

[Edited on 1-23-2009 by ncc386]

Post by **Vice** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:36 pm

Ah, well, then let me voice my opinion that I do not believe the player should be associated with any faction by default. Unless the player is IN the Navy, it's not really fair to have all the militaries of other systems automatically try to kill me as I should be a civilian. There aren't many countries where a civilian can go and actually be shot on sight by their local military.

You may be a civilian, but civilian operatives for the military can face the same response as those who serve in the military as well. You generally work for the Alliance Navy and Energy companies when you start the game. When you travel in your ship, you are travelling as an armed entity who is a known ally to the Alliance, potentially viewed as either a threat from the Alliance and/or an annoyance that they want to either eliminate or force back to where you came from. You may also be viewed as competition. With that said though, if you want to take me up on my offer, I'll send over details on setting up the game's universe with all Navies allied with you, if you want to take it that far.

Okay, new question, what happens if I run Rebel/Guild contracts and kill all Navy ships over an extended period of time? How does that affect my overall reputation? Do the Rebels/Guild become green permanently?

In SP, yes, they can once you shift your global reputation low enough. It's a challenging process to get there, depending on your starting reputation, but it can be done faster by the method I refer to above.

Goatnado386 · Post by **Goatnado386** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:49 pm

HAHA! After downloading the latest version with your new changes, I noticed less BS from the local Navy while under contract for them. Also, thanks to your insight, along with everyone else who was kind enough to view my video and comment on it, I changed my tactics on the 4vs1 contract:

This time I flew in soft bends while standing on the afterburner, keeping an eye on my velocity. I made sure to keep it around 2000 or faster when turning. Eventually I was able to get a lock on a ship or two and jammed a couple of Vipers up their tailpipes. After a short while, the remaining two fighters seemed (is this possible?) to run out of missiles, so I moved in for the kill. I got behind them one at a time, used to afterburners to close in to 300m, and my Starcannons turned them inside-out after about 5 seconds of sustained fire.

Yes, that's right, you heard it here first: ncc386 has actually completed a n00b Navy combat contract. I was so NOT harassed by the Navy that I even went on to shoot down three or four more Guild and Rebel ships just for the hell of it before heading back to my station to refuel.

Unfortuantely, my station seems to be out of Viper missiles and I only have 4 left. Figures!

Thanks again! At this rate, I might put down X3TC for a while and get back into ER! w00t!

[Edited on 1-23-2009 by ncc386]

BraveHart · Post by **BraveHart** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:55 pm

Congratulation on your Victory ncc386!! that is very good to hear about your improved fighting tactic

Goatnado386 · Post by **Goatnado386** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:58 pm

Originally posted by BraveHart
Congratulation on your Victory ncc386!! that is very good to hear about your improved fighting tactic

Ah, thank you! Now, I've officially moved up from 'awful' to just 'bad'.

[Edited on 1-23-2009 by ncc386]

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:07 am

Originally posted by ncc386
Originally posted by BraveHart
Congratulation on your Victory ncc386!! that is very good to hear about your improved fighting tactic
Ah, thank you! Now, I've officially moved up from 'awful' to just 'bad'.

[Edited on 1-23-2009 by ncc386]

You will move up to "good" and "great", no problem. Also "guileful".

Post by **Vice** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:59 am

Nice work ncc386! Yes, you can run hostile ships out of missiles

The ones you were fighting may have only been carrying 4 or 6 each. Victory is sweet

Daedalao · Post by **Daedalao** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:18 am

If your station is out of missiles, try leaving and returning! All that activity is likely to keep inbound shipments of weapons from making it through. Congrats on your victory!

Goatnado386 · Post by **Goatnado386** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:46 pm

And... last night I was able to play for a few hours because the Navy and Energy are at 100% while the Rebels and Guild are at 13% or less. I did several missions and got good enough at basic combat that I was able to fire my wingmen and still continue doing 4vs1 contracts.

Now I just wish I wouldn't undock from stations (it's always something) when looking at my NavMap or trading with other pilots.

Oh, yeah! I almost forgot! While I was running a trade route between my station and another one in the same system, I was delivering a beam weapon. Well, when I went to go sell it, I accidentally mounted it. I get the whole left-click/right-click stuff mixed up when buying and selling. So, I left the station and headed home. I was jumped by a pirate and with a simple class 2 beam laser (in addition to my class 9 projectile weapons), I wasted him much quicker than before. So, my question now is...

I have 14 million bucks and a desire to have the best beam weapon I can fit on my craft. Can someone please give me directions to the nearest system where class 9 or better beam lasers spawn at stations? In fact, if it's simply a matter of money and the class of the weapon doesn't matter when mounting on a ship, I'd be happy to spend up to 13 million on a beam laser. AAA-roadmap is ready. OnStar is activated. TomTom is accepting input! Where do I go?