Gameplay Question...

[Vice]

Please vote for the direction you would prefer most. Comments welcome. For those of you who read the forum, but do not participate, please send me your vote via e-mail as usual.

[Edited on 9-5-2008 by Vice]

[tha_rami]

I'm glad to see this discussed! I voted the third option, and I'd like to elaborate on why I'd prefer either option 3 or 4.

There's no penalty on either death or self-destruction in the game now, and in my opinion, this shifts the balance of 'threat' to something that resembles a sort of virtual reality now. Basically, one can fly around the universe, pick the most absurd of overweight resistance and just 'go for it' and see where that takes one.

Selfdestructing, then, too, gives player the unlimited power to 'retract' without any punishments instantly. In some cases, this can even keep people from scoring kills in multiplayer. Of course, while the mechanic is understandable (in a desperate situation, using the 'escape pod' is a smart thing to do), it doesn't make sense to me that this should be without consequences whatsoever.

Therefore, I feel that a penalty for self-destruct (or even player death) should be in place. I'm not certain how this would be in multiplayer (maybe a time penalty could be imposed there, or in multiplayer only servers, the normal penalty would apply), but I am certain it would strengthen gameplay mechanics and add to a feeling of danger in the hostile zones.

Percentual punishment seems most fair to me: it does not necessarily hurt new players badly, and for the very rich it doesn't really matter that much. Do note that I would prefer a smaller penalty, by the way - I think 2% or 3% would do.

To enforce a penalty, I think that we should also consider changing the respawn mechanic to respawning us at the last visited station, either that or at the closest one. This, too, will add to the tension. However, savegames should still be available including the 'quick-save' option, and the player should be free to load the save game by returning to the main menu and loading from there. This, then, would add a bit of additional 'punishment' or increase game continuity.

Concluding: a penalty would be a good direction to go in my opinion. It adds atmosphere, tension and strategy to the game, while preventing 'easy runs' in multiplayer.

[49rTbird]

I am voting for a time penalty (for now) and it should be a more realistic time (5 to 10 minutes) so I am away from any battle. I can be swayed to vote other wise if I hear a really good argument. I am not for a financial penalty as I have more money than I could ever use and to get back any penalty I would only have to re-instate may saved pilot from my back ups. Hear one hear all.

[KlingonKringle]

This may come as a suprise too some of you, I do not like the respawn in combat, I believe you should fight with what you have untill you get killed or have the opportunity to reload at a station or cannister location. Thats my 10 credits worth. I vote for option 1;)

[Vice]

Another factor to consider. In order for the forced loss of in-game credits or secondary weapons/cargo to apply as an irreversible penalty, the player's profile will have to be auto-saved. This means that they would also risk losing any secondary weapons or credits they may have used even if only one or the other has to be force saved. So in a sense, both directions would apply by default because of the requirement to save the profile to apply the reduction in credits and/or loss of secondary weapons/cargo. This is an important detail to consider as you vote.

[Edited on 9-5-2008 by Vice]

[PingBosun]

I do not feel there should be any "penalty". What should happen is that when you F7, you respawn at the nearest/last station with a new ship IN THE SAME STATE AS THE MOMENT BEFORE THE F7, i.e. loadout, cargo and money.

I will try and explain. At the moment if I use all my Stealth, I F7 and then respawn with all my stealth. If I use 4 stealth and have 4 left, then F7 I respawn with 4 stealth. If I have just fired off Excals, and I have 22 seconds left the reload and I F7 then I respawn with 22 seconds left without Excals.

In order for this to work though the F7 has to overwrite the last Quick Save. I consider this as a type of insurance (as per Elite). You get your ship back excaclty as it was before you F7. Doing this will prevent the F7 reload at no expense. Financial penalties may seem pointless when you have billions, but to go and find more stealth is more problematic. However, there may be a need to make the more advance weapon available at more stations, and also maybe based on the experience of the pilot. So you can't buy Excals first time out. You need to have some kills under you belt first.

If you get killed in normal battle then this F7 penalty does not apply and you respawn as normal. The penalty here is that you have lost a battle point!

So thats my ten penneth anyway.

[MMaggio]

I am in favor of financial penalties. A minimum of 10% of on-hand credits. If you have billions, 10% will hurt. If you don't have much, 10% will hurt.
Seems to me that script-wise that might be the easiest mod to make, but then, I'm a computer retard. I'm still looking for "any key".

[Jeremy]

Eh...

Since Vice has the poll on Self-destructs, I'll keep it on that. (Let's leave plain ol' player death out of it, Rami. )

I'd uh... >_>
I'd vote for a self destruction respawning you at the last point you saved, with the loadout you had before you hit F7. (Like PingBosun.)

To make that a bit more detailed:
equipment intact, same amount of money, shield recharged, with the only exception being you'd be missing any hardpoint weapons that you'd used before the F7.

[ASBOMAN]

Have to go along with Jeremy and PingBosun here, it is also nice to see Mehk'tor the Spector (Ghost of Chrismas Past) has a fair oppinion in this debate.;)

[49rTbird]

I think I agree with Jeremy. :(

[Vice]

Ok, if the 'restore to the F7 point' becomes the method and replaces the current 'last save' option, this will also mean you lose your last save point position and status. So no going back to a location you saved at, no recovery from getting lost in space by restoring your last save point, and no restoring any weapons/credits/equipment etc either. If the game auto-saves when you press F7, it will lock in your condition at that point, including everything from weapons to credits, location to equipment, and reputation to skill rating.

[Edited on 9-5-2008 by Vice]

[ASBOMAN]

That would not be a problem, I think most of us use a spare save slot for combat, so only that profile would be affected.
At least I always load on the profile I want to use then save it into a spare slot just in case the wheel comes off.:P;)

[Jeremy]

Shouldn't be a problem for anyone as long as they keep their finger off that F7 key.

[49rTbird]

Vice, WOW that should change some minds it did mine. I'm back to a "Substantial" time penalty.

[Jeremy]

Why? Are you in the habit of self destructing to avoid an honorable death?

[49rTbird]

Jeremy, if your question is for me then I have used the selfdestruct four or five times in the years I have played this sim and some of those times I didn't mean to (lol). I have used it for the fun of it and to test what would happen. I do explore a lot and I just exit without the save if I want to start over. If your question was not for me then I don't believe there is any honor in death sim or life there is just death.

[Jeremy]

Eh, I'm just joking with you.

Personally I don't see why anyone would care how serious the F7 penalty gets because it ain't like most of us ever use it.

[49rTbird]

Jeremy, U are right about that and someone will find another weak spot if not this one so C U in space (lol).

[Nigel_Strange]

If sacrifice is demanded, I hope it's only in multiplayer. I mean, why should there be a worse penalty than dying?

I don't understand why other players keep trying to punish me for playing the game. First it's the reduced benefit to the station licenses (a lot of money invested is now down the tubes, thank you very much) and now it's death penalty. Where does it end? Can't I play the game in peace without having to constantly defend my right to have fun without other people trying to take it away from me?

If you want a penalty, wear a rubber band around your wrist, then, when you self-destruct, give yourself a nice, painful sting. Let me know how that works for you.

As for penalizing me for exploring space, that's just horrible. I'm already disinclined to explore space because of the enormous time cost. You can sit here for hours, doing nothing but punching the alt-f2 combination to be rewarded by nothing more interesting than running out of fuel in the vast emptiness, not finding a planet. There is already enough "danger" for me never to want to do it. Add, on top of this, the death tax, or whatever, and you have someone who is never, ever, going to leave the shores of the stations and jump gates. Think of it like risk analysis. There is a thrill of finding a new system, but the cost of failure is so much more than the possible reward of finding a system, that it seems dumb to attempt it.

I mean: what gives you the right to ruin it for the rest of us, just because you are a masochist?

[MMaggio]

LOL! LMAO!:D:D
... And as good a defense as can be mustered!
I hadn't thought of my self as a masochist, although I have answered to "pervert" on occassion.
Seriously, Nigel, thank you very much for your input. I had never looked at it that way.
I wasn't too thrilled about the station change either, but surely you can see how this self-destruct thing is being "abused" to say the least. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any game that doesn't have some penalty for getting destroyed. Don't you think the player should lose anything?

[KlingonEmpire]

KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF THE F7 KEY AND LEAVE IT ALONE.

IT'S DOING JUST FINE AS IT IS AND DOESN'T NEED ANY INTERFERENCE.

[tha_rami]

THANK YOU FOR THE CAPS AND NOW PLEASE WRITE IN NORMAL CAPITALISATION. NO NEED TO SHOUT.

Okay, this is interesting.

I am extremely against saving through the F7 button. The F7 button is an emergency button that should only be available in emergency situations. To achieve this, I propose that F7 does nothing with your save-game, but instead, respawns you at the closest or last visited station in the exact state the ship was in when it was destroyed. If, in any case, you'd like to reload back to the save game, you can simply load the game from the main menu (and deliberately move away from the continuity of the game). If you decide to take the penalty and continue, you can simply start flying again.

Whether the punishment is monetary or commodities doesn't really bother me, but time is a bad option in my idea. Time, after all, is not a real punishment at all. It doesn't "hurt", it just "annoys". In fast-paced multiplayer shooters this can work easily, and since the respawn times are usually <20 seconds, it doesn't really annoy that much. In a space-sim, however, to be effective, respawn times should be longer and that would be damaging to the fun-factor.

This way, no party will be severely damaged. Those in favor of punishment can continue to fly, and those against will simply have a time penalty having to reload the game. Auto-saving is indeed, as Nigel stated, making the game too 'risky' - especially explorers and people without internet access could have a severe disadvantage through this. One could (and I would) argue that this is a incalculated risk, to fly further than your fuel allows - but I think this would be taking it too far.

I would say that PingBosuns idea comes closest to mine. He explained it pretty well - keeping the ship in the state it was when destroyed adds a lot of immersion and convincingness to the game - but like stated, there's no reason why a player shouldn't be able to revert back. In a popular indie game called Mount & Blades, the player gets the option to choose between 'continuity mode' (not allow the player to exit and not save, autosave at death or victory) and 'normal mode' (allow the player to exit and not save). What I'd like to see here is a compromise. The player is allowed to exit and not save, yet at death the player is given the option to leave the game to reload a save-game or accept a penalty.

A punishment for death or F7 is fair, just and increases the challenge of the game. For those that do not wish to adhere to this system, a time penalty is in place by having to reload the game. Especially in multiplayer, I expect this behaviour to be looked down upon, and that's a good thing. If, for any reason, it turns out that 'everyone reloads', we could reconsider changing the death screen to something in which you can choose between a considerable time-penalty (30 seconds-1 minute) or the money-penalty.

If we check the polls results, it currently 47% in favor of a penalty and 53% against. In my opinion, the system I described above (or the above system with relevant amendments) would be the most fair compromise to both sides.

[Edited on 6-9-2008 by tha_rami]

[d_k_k_y]

I don't like any punishment. The current kill count system is ok for me. It is only a game! No need to make things more complex. I also like to be able to return to a certain area where I have saved last time.

There are always ways for those who like to do it. A few weeks ago I nearly killed Kahless in a one on one. Then he pressed "esc" left the game and simply reloaded it again.
But hey, IT IS A GAME! And if someone does this more then once I could simply decide not to play with him any more. There are enough honorably Pilots out there.

PS: I know no (other) game which has such a penalty.

[MMaggio]

Vice always said the majority seem against a death penalty of any kind.
It's not a big deal to me. Let majority rule...

[Jeremy]

Muddying the waters, Rami.

You might want to separate your line of reasoning there, because this is(or at least it was) about death by self destruction from hitting F7.

Not about player death from other causes. And as Vice has stated having penalties for normal death is very unpopular.
Could we leave that out of this? I can see that it's causing quite some confusion - at least in Nigel's post it appears he's referring to non-F7 death.

I ain't masochistic, I have to say I'm partially in agreement with Nigel's post when it comes to non-F7 death, and I have to say this particular penalty would almost never affect me, because I have absolutely no reason to self destruct.
And most of you probably wouldn't even notice, because you're probably not in the habit either. Why would you use F7 in single player?
No real reason.

Why would you use F7 in multiplayer?
For the dubious reason of "denying" your opponent a kill, which doesn't even work now as your opponent is already credited with a kill point when you self destruct.

Unfortunate that the thread has been confused this badly - if you take a little time to understand what this is about you'll see there's nothing to get hot and bothered about.

Also.
Mr. Klingon.
Your caps lock privileges are in the process of being revoked.

[Edited on 9/6/2008 by Jeremy]