Clan ID

[CS-ACI-]

Hello,

I had this problem the other day, and I am noticing on the server now.

If you are a clan member all other clans show as RED, even if you are affiliated with them or doing CO-OP missions.

Is there a way, some how to have some form of "friendly" recocnition system so that they are not all RED?

I am thinking this can either be done in game with some sort of tag entry system or from a separate configuration file.

Steve

[Vice]

There's not a way to do this 'on the fly' because a player's name is stamped into the multiplayer session's player name list (and the game's sorting, reputation, and targeting systems) when they join. So they would have to disconnect, update their name, then reconnect with the new ID. Clans are intended to be hostile to each other unless they share a common ID, either permanently or temporarily. It may be possible to streamline this with a renaming option in the pilot manager menu, but currently, the only way to link groups is to edit the player name manually for the desired ID label.

[d_k_k_y]

The usual way is that one clan change its call sign to the one of the other if they want to do coops. A technical solution to set certain clan tags red / yellow / green in the game might be possible....but only Vice know how much time / work this might take...

But I think it is a nice idea to set the status of other clan tags in the game.

--- Ah, Vice was quicker ---

But how about another option in the trade console where you can set Clan tags and choose a certain reputation for them? This way even players of the same clan could easily set different reputations for other clans or change them ingame if they like...

[Edited on 13-8-2008 by d_k_k_y]

[tha_rami]

I think it would be much better to "detach" the clan tag from the player name, and allow people to set it in-game and on the fly. I mean, it wouldn't change that much, the whole naming during messaging could remain the same (check for clan -> if clan, attach [###] before player name, if not, leave name) and it would allow for far more flexibility. You could send a signal to the host when updating now you're using MS for multiplayer, and then have the Host update all clients about the change, so that you do not end up with massive packet additions - and for the ID-list, I really couldn't care whether my clan tag shows up there.

Yes, you'd need to rewrite quite some stuff, I guess, but seeing you just rewrote your entire multiplayer system, you could consider this a frequently requested additional uhm... addition.

[Edited on 13-8-2008 by tha_rami]

[Edited on 13-8-2008 by tha_rami]

[Edited on 13-8-2008 by tha_rami]

[49rTbird]

I remember someone saying that a easy clan name change might be bad as a player may switch sides on the fly and not show up as an enemy but act as one. I would like to see this option anyway as there seems to be one GIANT clan and a couple very small clans at this time. this does make us small fry look as tastie as any other red. I know MP has a lot of growing to do so lets keep the ideas rolling in please.

[Vice]

I remember someone saying that a easy clan name change might be bad as a player may switch sides on the fly and not show up as an enemy but act as one.

That's one of the reasons many games encrypt player names and do not even allow them to be changed during gameplay so that identites can't be altered on the fly to prevent situations like that.

As Rami points out, clan ID's are attributed to your name ID, which is why it's tough to alter that after a player has already connected to a multiplayer session and broadcasted their ID information to the server and connected clients. It isn't just a Multisync consideration (which I consider to be one of the best multiplayer systems out there), but several 'sub-systems' in the game used for targeting, reputation structure, and list sorting that depend on that identity information. It's not something that's easily just turned on or off, or easily changed. Updating all clients for new reputation data during gameplay could risk losing/delaying important data packets for gamestate (jumpy objects, hits not registering or being delayed, pausing, etc). It would actually be more feasible to form links once they're in game via the trade console rather than clan ID's, but the drawback to that is then players have to reselect their affiliations every time they sign into a game (like players in Freelancer have to do now). The current system lets players keep a consistent (and changeable) affiliation that automatically links them to their clan members every time they sign in and it lets any potential server monitoring programs parse player names to link results to clan groups (which I've received stronger feedback on as being something to consider). If two clans want to link, all they need to do is have their members change their clan ID's to a common label. I do think having a way to rename your profile within the game via the pilot manager menu would make this process easier and faster, so I will look into that as a future option.

[Edited on 8-13-2008 by Vice]

[tha_rami]

That's one of the reasons many games encrypt player names and do not even allow them to be changed during gameplay so that identites can't be altered on the fly to prevent situations like that.

Just to give a counter-argument: the most diplomatic games do allow players to switch sides on the fly. Most big RTS games have this option (StarCraft, Age of Empires, ect), and MMORPG's/RPG's allow the player to switch loyalty to a guild, clan or faction at any time. It could potentially add a lot of diplomacy to allowing one to a clan, and could introduce spies and the like. Could be fun, in other words.

My proposal was to unlink player name and clan. Instead of:

[EF]tha_rami

I would be:

tha_rami

This would be send to all players. Then, when I change my clan, a signal would be sent to all online players. This way, you would avoid having to rewrite the whole ID/name system. Disconnecting that shouldn't be more than changing the way a certain string gets its data (I assume you parse the name to get the clan tag, then store that information in a string, then process that). Possibly, you could give a textual warning when someone changes allegiance. For clan members, it would simply show up as "tha_rami has left the clan" or "tha_rami has joined the clan". This way, everyone is safe from 'jumping' tactics.

With some simple parsing, you can then add that together for the chat.

[Edited on 14-8-2008 by tha_rami]

[Edited on 14-8-2008 by tha_rami]

[d_k_k_y]

Originally posted by Vice
If two clans want to link, all they need to do is have their members change their clan ID's to a common label. I do think having a way to rename your profile within the game via the pilot manager menu would make this process easier and faster, so I will look into that as a future option.

Why not let everyone keep his clan ID but give the possebilety to change the threat level of other Clan IDs ingame?

If I want to do a coop contract with e.g. NS clan members I would be able to change the threat level of NS to green while keep a SW myself. I also think that this might be technically more easy to implement. And I don't have to lose my clan identety just to fly coop with others. AND there could be no sudden change of sides because every player keep his clan ID but "I" can decide if other clans apears green, red or neutral to me.

I see alot of benefits in this system. How do you think?

[Edited on 14-8-2008 by d_k_k_y]

[d_k_k_y]

Originally posted by d_k_k_y
I see alot of benefits in this system. How do you think?

Nobody has an opinion about this?



[Edited on 14-8-2008 by d_k_k_y]

[CS-ACI-]

Hello,

Well I read your post and your sarcasm that followed.

I made my post to start this, will leave it with Vice.

Steve

[d_k_k_y]

I´m sorry but where do you see "sarcasm"?

That was not my intention. I just made a suggestion and wanted to know how others think about it. If I said something that apear as "sarcasm" I´ll go and change it, cause that was not my intention at all.....

Since english is not my first language I apologize if I produced a misunderstanding. I appreciate a hint!

[Edited on 15-8-2008 by d_k_k_y]

[tha_rami]

I must've missed the sarcasm too, but then again, I'm in Daniels neighbouring country and that certainly isn't the US or the UK - so that says little - although I'm quite confident in my English skills. In any case, I like both ideas. I'd like hotswitching clans. Sounds like something I could do.

[MMaggio]

I don't see the sarcasm either.
That's what I get for being old...

[CS-ACI-]

Hello,

Originally posted by d_k_k_y

Originally posted by d_k_k_y
I see alot of benefits in this system. How do you think?

Nobody has an opinion about this?



[Edited on 14-8-2008 by d_k_k_y]

The sarcasm was spotted here, posting 1 hour 9 mins after the proceeding post. We need time to reply.

Steve

[Vice]

I also recognize that this may not be possible due to limitations within DarkBasic.

Well, to be fair to DB, this isn't a limitation of DB. There are indeed several things that DB does have limits on, this isn't one of them (aside from variable limits, but that's a trait in many languages). As I've explained above, this is more of a limitation of the dependencies of multiple routines and systems coded into the game and its multiplayer mode, including name logging, clan ID sorting, list sorting, targeting, and reputation systems... which are all interdependent. Changing one of them in some way can effect the rest, so it risks breaking something in one or more (most likely more) of those systems. It could be potentially feasibly to allow for linking within the game (where a player could enter the label(s) of clan(s) they want to be temporarily allied with), but that would require additional array space that is becoming quite scarce in the codebase. It is something I plan to at least dig into a bit to analyze how feasible it might be.

Personally, I don't like the idea of being able to switch clans.

I tend to agree with that. 'Hot clan swapping' invites some problems with loyalty and steps back from why the clan option was added in the first place (the reasons players asked for it in the form it was added). The main reason the clan option was added in the first place was so players who wanted to be members of the same group could link together in the game's targeting and reputation systems, appearing as friendlies to each other. Players who wanted to be in opposition to others in that group would simply use a different clan name. Different clans would exist for that specific division so that they would appear hostile to each other. If the players wanted to unite, then they needed to unite under the clan system using a common (agreed to) clan label. If there is to be frequent uniting of clans, then there really isn't much of a need for the clan system at all, players can/should just sign in without a clan ID at all or all share the same clan label. Clan divisions are designed to let human players battle against each other as hostiles.

For now, players who want to link together need to either remove their clan ID temporarily or change it to match the clan(s) they want to be allied with. Renaming a profile within the Pilot Manager menu is something I intend to add in the future to make that option even easier.

[Edited on 8-15-2008 by Vice]

[d_k_k_y]

Originally posted by CS-ACI-
Hello,

The sarcasm was spotted here, posting 1 hour 9 mins after the proceeding post. We need time to reply.

Steve

Ah, then I see the misunderstanding. The first post was made "x:xx am" the other "x:xx pm". Between both have been more than 13 hours - not just 1 hour as you assumed. I hope that explains it. Of course I don't wait on an reaction after only one hour.

Originally posted by Vice
Well, to be fair to DB, this isn't a limitation of DB. There are indeed several things that DB does have limits on, this isn't one of them (aside from variable limits, but that's a trait in many languages). As I've explained above, this is more of a limitation of the dependencies of multiple routines and systems coded into the game and its multiplayer mode, including name logging, clan ID sorting, list sorting, targeting, and reputation systems... which are all interdependent. Changing one of them in some way can effect the rest, so it risks breaking something in one or more (most likely more) of those systems. It could be potentially feasibly to allow for linking within the game (where a player could enter the label(s) of clan(s) they want to be temporarily allied with), but that would require additional array space that is becoming quite scarce in the codebase. It is something I plan to at least dig into a bit to analyze how feasible it might be.

Would it technically more easy if players could not enter the labels but if they jus can see a (game generated) list of all Clans ID currently online and after them only a switch to change their thread level?

[BraveHart]

Originally posted by CS-ACI-

If you are a clan member all other clans show as RED, even if you are affiliated with them or doing CO-OP missions.

Is there a way, some how to have some form of "friendly" recocnition system so that they are not all RED?

Steve

This is an interesting Ideal and I understand that it would reduce the amount of friendly fire...... I really enjoy the challenge of doing co-op contracts with the other Clans and prefer they keep their clan tag without it changing the color. Maybe it's just me but having the other co-op clans red in color allows me to concentrate fully and think quick before firing....Reminds me of hunting critters in the wild "ID your critter before firing" I know it can be very chaotic during those Ziggers of a battle hehehe.....But what a Hoot!! using Team Speak really helps in combat.....You can say "ooops...sorry PB sr" without typing a quick apology after accidentally popping a friendly

[Vice]

Would it technically more easy if players could not enter the labels but if they jus can see a (game generated) list of all Clans ID currently online and after them only a switch to change their thread level?

If I understand the question, yes, in fact, you can do that now. Just right click on a server to see a list of the players online with their clan ID's, then you can change yours as desired before signing in.

In-game hot swapping of clan affiliations presents the problems I listed in the first and second paragraphs. That's the method that would be the more difficult implementation and risks stepping back from why it was added initially. If clans are just going to link up after a session starts, then there's little reason to use clan ID's at all and players should just sign in without them or use the same one.

[Edited on 8-15-2008 by Vice]

[tha_rami]

Mmm, I see. Okay, you're right there - hotswapping might not be a good idea. Still, I think the potential abuse of it would not outweigh the potential uses of it. For example, two clans teaming up on a single clan. But in that case, Daniels idea of a clan threat level interface would work as well.

[CS-ACI-]

Hello,

d_k_k_y I appologize, you are correct.

I saw both times, saw 01:44 and 14:53 an my brain farted and thought it was 1 hour nine mins.

Steve

[d_k_k_y]

Originally posted by CS-ACI-
Hello,

d_k_k_y I appologize, you are correct.

I saw both times, saw 01:44 and 14:53 an my brain farted and thought it was 1 hour nine mins.

Steve

No Problem Steve. I´m glad that we talked about it and found the reason for the misunderstanding.

You can call me Dan(iel) if you like.

[PingBosun]

Originally posted by Vice

Would it technically more easy if players could not enter the labels but if they jus can see a (game generated) list of all Clans ID currently online and after them only a switch to change their thread level?

If I understand the question, yes, in fact, you can do that now. Just right click on a server to see a list of the players online with their clan ID's, then you can change yours as desired before signing in.

In-game hot swapping of clan affiliations presents the problems I listed in the first and second paragraphs. That's the method that would be the more difficult implementation and risks stepping back from why it was added initially. If clans are just going to link up after a session starts, then there's little reason to use clan ID's at all and players should just sign in without them or use the same one.

[Edited on 8-15-2008 by Vice]

Interesting views, but I have another, and being [NS] I am often "involved" in co-ops with the big [SW] clan, and I also take hits.

However I always check who I am targeting simply by looking at the ID!. I know I am co-oping with [SW] so when I target [SW] during a contract, I don't shoot, but select next target (hence by earlier post in another thread). OK there is a problem when firing Excal, but they should only be use, in my opinion, at the start of the battle when there are loads of "bad guys" around, not towards the end when you are picking off the stragglers. In fact I often invite my co-ops to look at the ID via both TeamSpeak and via the keyboard.

But then thats probably why the [SW] clan like me so much- I don't shoot them, they shoot me!!!!!

[ASBOMAN]

Originally posted by PingBosun
But then thats probably why the [SW] clan like me so much- I don't shoot them, they shoot me!!!!!

Got it in one Popeye:D:P;)

[BraveHart]

HeHeHe..... Only by Accident "Ping" Only by Accident......HeHeHe

[nschafer]

Actually the Excal heads to whatever target you currently have targeted. That is of course automatically the closest hostile to you, but if you target another ship the excals will change course and head to the ship you just targeted. This is how I prevent hitting friendly units with extra excals. I simply keep them moving from target to target without letting them actually hit by constantly changing my target. Of course this won't work if there is only one other ship in the area, but this is pretty uncommon.