EL 1.2078: Compass is broken planetside

[XenonSurf]

In space the compass works pretty well, especially the markers for easy docking. But planetsite, the compass goes crazy and is not useful.

Ok, you will say - ah that^s because of magnetic effects of the weather which adds realism - but the fact is you need a reliable compass because mission waypoints or other waypoints you set are all moving because of planet rotation. To compensate for this, all you have is an exact course and distance estimation from the city base and this requires a PRECISE compass. Else you are basically lost and cannot find any location precisely.

This is not just cosmetic, it's important for succeeding in the missions on planets, currently some are very difficult or quite impossible because of this.

Thanks to correct this.

XenonS

[Edited on 4-11-2016 by XenonSurf]

[Vice]

The compass is working as intended and isn't going crazy. It is simply staying aligned with the galactic ecliptic (as does the 3D radar globe and nav map data), rather than aligning itself with the planet's poles. Here is some information on the reasons why from a discussion on the topic a few years ago:

(Changing the compass to align with planet poles) would mean that you would no longer have the nav map reference alignment with the compass as long as you are planet side. So for example, if you're trying to navigate to a city on the nav map (or a cargo blip for that matter), you can't really use the compass to guide yourself forward along the Z axis to the city icon using the compass when it's not aligned with that map. You would then have to guess as to which heading...

Now since you say:

but the fact is you need a reliable compass because mission waypoints or other waypoints you set are all moving because of planet rotation. To compensate for this, all you have is an exact course and distance estimation from the city base and this requires a PRECISE compass. Else you are basically lost and cannot find any location precisely.

This is not just cosmetic, it's important for succeeding in the missions on planets, currently some are very difficult or quite impossible because of this.

Can you explain why this is the case and why you'd need it changed? Of course the waypoints stay in place relative to the rotation of the planet. But the compass stays aligned with those waypoints as displayed on the nav map, so they all stay calibrated to the same system regardless of planet rotation. If you make the compass align with planet poles, you would throw that all off and they would no longer be synchronized with each other.

So how is it that you can't find any location precisely when the compass is calibrated to the same precise location displayed on the nav map rather than a relative orientation to the planet poles? And how is it impossible when the two systems remain aligned with each other? If you misalign align one or the other, then you won't have the needed heading or nav map location data synchronized with the other system. So more information on what it is you'd be after would help explain what you are saying.

[XenonSurf]

I understand that the compass is referenced with the space ecliptic. But on the planet, this means if you make a slight change in altitude then the compass may rotate 90° or more; make a full turn left and the compass may only change 5°. Not an instrument you want in an airplane here on earth, for example...

Currently I have a workaround for the problem: I use a mining probe that stays constant on the planet surface and I use this as a waypoint, although it's only visible 10K away, not optimal.

XenonS

[Vice]

I understand that the compass is referenced with the space ecliptic. But on the planet, this means if you make a slight change in altitude then the compass may rotate 90° or more; make a full turn left and the compass may only change 5°. Not an instrument you want in an airplane here on earth, for example...

That still doesn't explain how specifically you'd need it to work relative to finding waypoints and other locations on the nav map. That only restates what it didn't do that caused the problems you listed. Again, I'll need specific details on what it is you'd want it to do and how that would not negatively impact synchronized functionality between the nav map, 3D radar globe (which includes the galactic ecliptic horizon), and the compass.

How exactly do you want the compass aligned? And how then would you still correlate following the Z axis for example on the nav map relative to the altered compass alignment? Once the compass is set to planet poles, you would lose the inter-linked multiple reference methods it and the other related systems provide.

What is it you are trying to find on the nav map that you would need a pole-aligned compass rather than a nav map aligned compass?

[XenonSurf]

Optimally, the planetary comapss doesn't need to be calibrated with the poles (here on Earth this is the case because of historical reasons, the discovery that the poles are magnetic), it's enough to keep the galactic X, Y coordinates and dismiss the Z coordinate. The North reference can be any, not necessarily the poles which in reality is different on every planet; here in Evochron, I guess all the planets are aligned North-South according to the ecliptic, so it's enough for the planetary compass to just skip the Z coordinate for the game mechanics, but this is an element you know much better than I do...

XenonS

[Edited on 4-11-2016 by XenonSurf]

[Vice]

The Z coordinate/axis is the 'North/South' or '0/180' heading on the compass. How would the compass work without that dependency link (ie keeping only the galactic X/Y)? Currently, the compass stays true regardless of where the player is relative to a planet and regardless of what orientation their ship is at relative to a planet (or any object in space for that matter). The compass behaves consistently as though the planet isn't even there, because that's how the nav map and the 3D radar globe also stay aligned.

[XenonSurf]

Sorry, my last answer was 'life' before your last one.

I don't speak about the Nav map, only when flying on the planet surface. For example, you get a mission with a waypoint where you must find something. OK, sounds easy, isn't it? It's NOT because the waypoint is not fixed, it's moving. Now you could determine in which direction the planet is rotating, and make some savant calculation to compensate (the more time passes, the more the waypoint is meaningless). So, what I do to overcome the problem is: when I leave the base, I want to:

- remember the compass course to the waypoint
- remember the distance from base to waypoint

If I cannot set a precise course, that is as I said, if the compass goes 'crazy' by making big jumps when changing altitude etc. then it's useless and I cannot do the above.
In some rare case, the planet topology can help, but most often it doesn't .

In short: If I ask you to go out of the base and go to 268°, 45K away you won't be able to do it currently.

I hope you understand my point, it^s long to read, but the problem is very simple...

XenonS

[Vice]

I don't speak about the Nav map, only when flying on the planet surface. For example, you get a mission with a waypoint where you must find something. OK, sounds easy, isn't it? It's NOT because the waypoint is not fixed, it's moving.

Except that the waypoint is fixed, it doesn't move. Only the planet rotation is moving. So all related ship systems stay fixed and locked to the non-moving waypoint.

Now you could determine in which direction the planet is rotating, and make some savant calculation to compensate (the more time passes, the more the waypoint is meaningless).

What calculation would you have to do? The displays remain the same and still 'point' to where they need to. Any rotation or movement doesn't impact the waypoint tracking systems. You still need to go to the same place, regardless. And that's where the tracking systems retain their consistency, rather than drifting with the planet or being aligned with something other than a consistent spatial orientation.

- remember the compass course to the waypoint
- remember the distance from base to waypoint

The compass course will continue to adapt to the needed direction if the player moves at all. This is true whether their movement is due to a planet rotation or if they move on their own. Either way, it remains consistent. So are you saying you'd want the compass to somehow display a false course/heading based on a time offset?

Distance will also be different based on the player's movements, regardless of whether it is due to planet rotation or they move on their own. All of the orientation and direction indicators will adapt automatically to any such changing conditions.

I'm still having trouble understanding what changes specifically you would want made to the compass to account for the 'remember' elements you list.

If I cannot set a precise course, that is as I said, if the compass goes 'crazy' by making big jumps when changing altitude etc. then it's useless and I cannot do the above.
In some rare case, the planet topology can help, but most often it doesn't .

How is it you want to set a precise course that the current system does not provide? If your pitch changes so that the nose of your ship results in a different direction, are you saying you don't want the compass to correctly display that orientation change?

In short: If I ask you to go out of the base and go to 268°, 45K away you won't be able to do it currently.

No contract requires that only by numbers, but rather with waypoint markers instead that are linked to and calibrated with the orientation and direction systems. But even if those were required, you'd simply align with the galactic ecliptic using the 3D radar globe, then turn (yaw) to the required heading, then fly in the required direction, yawing and pitching as may be needed to avoid hitting terrain. No math or calculations required, just visual cues and guidance. But that's not required in the game. You can yaw and pitch all you want and still gauge the required location using the provided navigation systems relative to a galactic constant independent of any spatial object in between.

The only way around that would be to unhook the compass from correct heading information and tie it to something fake just to avoid any changes you expect shouldn't happen. But then a major degree of inaccuracy would apply as what you'd be seeing would not be correct for your ship's position and orientation.

[XenonSurf]

OK, to understand my point, you would have to do the following (just imagine it):
You accept a mission to find an item on the planet. Head to to waypoint and come to a stop. You will notice that the waypoint is 'moving'. In reality, it's not moving, but the planet does, it rotates. So it's obvious that with time passing the waypoint becomes obsolete and useless. That's because the waypoint is a fixed point in space , useful when you are in space, but not useful on planets.
Do you see the problem now?

XenonS

[Edited on 4-12-2016 by XenonSurf]

[XenonSurf]

The workaround for the problem is easy though, but i sincerly doublt that most people will easily figure it out:

To bypass the problem you must consider the compass bearing for ANY specific altitude when flying on planets. You are so navigating as by the ecliptic. But it's not easy...

I happen to have a sailing license in real-life. My old teacher will get whiter hairs if I talk to him about this (which I will not ofc

XenonS

[Vice]

OK, to understand my point, you would have to do the following (just imagine it):
You accept a mission to find an item on the planet. Head to to waypoint and come to a stop. You will notice that the waypoint is 'moving'. In reality, it's not moving, but the planet does, it rotates. So it's obvious that with time passing the waypoint becomes obsolete and useless. That's because the waypoint is a fixed point in space , useful when you are in space, but not useful on planets.
Do you see the problem now?

That relates to waypoint functionality, not really compass functionality.

In regards to waypoint accuracy over time, the waypoint intel does indeed become less accurate over time, so it's important to not delay very long before engaging in the search. Otherwise, the longer you delay, the less accurate the waypoint becomes and you will eventually have to back track to explore where the planet may have carried the item. And in that case, you don't need a compass at all. You just level out with the galactic ecliptic (again using the 3D radar globe's horizon), then yaw until you line up with the planet's horizon in the direction it's rotating, then fly that path watching the radar to look for a signal.

Technically, you could use the compass because it is aligned with the galactic ecliptic to keep a consistent heading measurement, but you wouldn't need to. Just leveling out and flying in the direction of the planet's rotation would be all that's needed.

[XenonSurf]

It's a chance that your planets rotate slowly... Here on Earth you would need a fighter jet going 1600 kmh to catch up by using this system
Such 'waypoints' actually exist and are visible: some rare reflexions of Venus in the atmosphere, some people call it UFO...

I^d like to close topic here if you don't mind. See you next time.

Greets,
XenonS

[haloterm]

I have the feeling that what XenonSurf really wants is not a different compass, but a GPS which gives him exact locations and directions, independet of rotations, and that he wants planetary waypoints to be based on these GPS positions, independent of the interstellar waypoint system.

This could make things very easy, though, and destroy the exploring part. Good for players who want to rush through the game.

However, a real GPS system could actually be fun -- on each planet some GPS-like satellites could be positioned and as long as they are not destroyed or disturbed, such a system could provide accurate navigation on planets. Even a topographic map could be drawn in the cockpit in planetary mode. Of course if somebody destroys the satellites, or on planets without GPS at all (because nobody lives there, for example), the old system would be in effect, to not make everything too easy.

[XenonSurf]

I have the feeling that what XenonSurf really wants is not a different compass, but a GPS which gives him exact locations and directions, independet of rotations, and that he wants planetary waypoints to be based on these GPS positions, independent of the interstellar waypoint system.

This could make things very easy, though, and destroy the exploring part. Good for players who want to rush through the game.

(...)

No, no need for a GPS, only a compass working like in any airplanes here on Earth. These compasses use the magnetic pole to orientate. They are only useful for a bearing (direction), not for a position, that^s because for determining a longitude and latitude you also need distance data which is not a straight line, but a Mercator-type line (curved).
And no, no, it would not be easy to find an object using real compass and distance data: If I give you a position which is not 100 % accurate and ask you to search 100 miles around it, you will be busy for a while.

But I agree that at the current state EL is challenging when doing these missions because of the added difficulty to have to use the galactic ecliptic system. But then be aware that, after 20 minutes or so, if you didn't find the object yet, then you will most likely fail the mission because you have no more data, except the planet's rotation direction in relation to your waypoint.

XenonS

[DaveK]

I have some empathy with Xenon based on my first response to ship compass behaviour when on planets. I thought that I ought to be able to set a heading and follow it and fly right around the planet and arrive back where I started. It sounds like what is throwing him is that the compass doesn't appear to be behaving 'properly'. As he says, turn the ship 10 degrees and the compass might shift 90; turn the ship 90 and the compass might only shift a few degrees. Unpredictably. In effect, I think that Xenon would like to be able to set a compass course to the WP and follow it without the compass seeming to have a mind of its own

All that is actually needed, given that the WP (visible in the HUD) is actually your initial target is to fly to the WP (be it a flight at ground level or via a surface to space plus jump plus space to surface at the WP location if its a long way away) . That gets you to the contract location. Then you just have to find the contract item.

[Marvin]

Sorry, my eyes are going bad ... and all the back and forth doesn't seem to address the "fix" which I employed in EM and would probably work in Legacy as well. You can modify the radar sphere so that it displays two small circles ... one at the top (north) pole and one at the bottom (south) pole. Great for planetside orientation.

[DaveK]

If it works in Legacy can you tell us where to find it please!

[Marvin]

I'm testing it now ... it's only 4k so I can post it here if it works.

[Marvin]

Okay, it works (for those who've spent some time navigating on planet Earth and are actually familiar with the principle behind a compass). I'm attaching a copy of the one I've used ... it goes into your HUD folder.

Keep in mind that: the circles indicate the poles, green for north and gray for south (you can change the colors using MS Paint if you like); if you're flying east-west, the poles will be along the edge of your scope; if you're headed toward a pole, the circle representing your destination pole will be in the center of the scope and smaller (because it's at the far end of the radar grid); you can check the accuracy of your heading by using the navigation map ... in the Top view your arrow icon will either be pointed toward the pole (center) if you're headed toward the nearest pole (see Note below) or parallel to the equator (circumference) if you're headed east or west, or somewhere in between (which doesn't happen often if you're off chasing an object on the planet).

[file]1181[/file]



[Edited on 4-12-2016 by Marvin]

[DaveK]

I might be missing something but the png is a grid with 3 horizontals and 5 verticals but zero circles visible

[Edited on 12-4-2016 by DaveK]

[Marvin]

Try it.

[Marvin]

Note: The size of the circles and your orientation (arrow) on the navigation map depend on your location north or south of the equator. For example, if you're north of the equator but heading toward the south pole, your icon will be pointed away from the center ... switching to pointing toward the center as soon as you cross the equator (as seen from the Rear view of the map). But the radar grid will still center on the smaller gray circle. When heading east or west, the location of the radar circles depend on your location on the planet but are usually near the left and right edges.

[XenonSurf]

I realize that changes to navigation on planets would clash with the NAV system in space which is top notch as for realism IMO, not easy but one has to understand the system first.

I did more missions on planets in the meantime, and if I got confused first, I'm saying now that it IS possible to navigate using the Ecliptic system, so I'm now able to find a position on the planet:
It's enough to remember your Altitude when flying to a position at a compass bearing. If you then ever do the same after, the compass bearing will also be the same at that altitude; so I have to correct my statements: nothing ^crazy^ at all, just space ecliptic
I also use a lot the "Set Location" which can update a waypoint if you take too long in a mission.

So, it works, no need for any change, unless others really have trouble with the missions, but I don't think so.

Thanks,
XenonS

[Edited on 4-12-2016 by XenonSurf]

[Marvin]

I'll probably retain the EM radar grid now that I've checked it out for Legacy. But, for planetside "recovery" contracts I'll stick with my current method of flying to the navigation point and, if the purple blip can't be seen, then follow my "drift-meter" in the direction of the planet's rotation. So far, the technique has worked every time except one ... when a slight shift in the pod's location buried it inside a mountain.

[Vice]

Another possible change that may help with visual reference for ecliptic alignment and navigation might be a better horizon plane indicator on the 3D radar sphere. Adding a little color to that surface might help make it easier to discern what angle the player needs to align their ship with. I'll include that for the next test build to see how it works out. If it proves useful, I can include in the next official update.