Station/city modules are free and too easy to build (Useless money in EL)

[FotonCat]

Why any buildable modules are free to build now?
You just need a metal - that's uninteresting and turns the credits in Evochron Legacy into just useless haystack. Building stations is WAY TOO EASY.

I even respect the possibility of introducing regular fee for station maintenance.

Also, if you don't want to make money to pay fee just by mining, the Misundertood Wookie offered a great idea - trade module
http://www.starwraith.com/forum/viewtop ... #pid186269
For example, if you build trade module and somebody decide to buy something at your station, you will get some reward. I think, this game can have much more possibilites in economics!

[Edited on 3-11-2016 by FotonCat]

[matchbox2022]

So as the owner basically. In control.

At that point there should be an option to take control of the station and its trading really, a whole new game, albeit that'd be really cool too.

Money I think is meant to be there to have a hold back only on newer players.

Now if items became available as rank progressed that'd be more interesting too / harder.

As far as more selection goes at a station, I believe the production modules are meant for that.

That could be really hard to just make as an update for Vice. That sounds like expansion territory.

[CS-ACI-]

Hello,

They might be easy to build, but they are not free.

The cost comes in two parts.

Metal and the need to find it and mine it.

Second, whilst you are mining metal you are not making any cash.

I have to go and make cash every now and then to pay for my crew, fuel and hanger fees.

This version of the game is less about the money than the previous games.

Steve

[FotonCat]

Now if items became available as rank progressed that'd be more interesting too / harder.

That's very beautiful idea. Evochron Legacy in it's today's state almost looses the challenge point when you have all ships and equipment being just a little more experienxed than the rookie (with second or third rank).

[matchbox2022]

Yeah it's all about grinding for cash in the beginning, where instead if you lock items to even, iunno, the 5th rank up, it'd make people more amicable to "doing things" rather than turning on the mining beam and walking away (points at self in mirror).

Personally I don't need that encouragement when doing joint MP missions

[Edited on 3-11-2016 by matchbox2022]

[Rubber Chicken]

Now if items became available as rank progressed that'd be more interesting too / harder.

That's very beautiful idea. Evochron Legacy in it's today's state almost looses the challenge point when you have all ships and equipment being just a little more experienxed than the rookie (with second or third rank).

I do like this idea as well. If you're a rookie, then building an outpost with a couple of turrets and a shield should be the max you can do.

If you want to build a true orbital metropolis - with all modules available, then you should have enough rank to be sure to be elected Governor when it's next on the schedule for the voting machines to be rigged.

[matchbox2022]

Just add to the list of things to vote on :p

I've been in touch with vice, but there's only one other idea that's been worth votes so far, pretty much anything gameplay related.

That said, how many people want aurora around the poles of planets close to stars? Be a cool shader effect in the atmosphere, especially at night.

[Marvin]

Before anyone votes "yes" have them state how long they've spent sitting on a planet in EL, looking out over an ocean, watching either a sunrise or a sunset.

[matchbox2022]

And who said DX9/10 wasn't that pretty compared to ED

It totally can be, I think aurorae would fit into that scene, reflecting off the water quite nicely.

[FotonCat]

Guys, if you want beautiful planets, amazing graphics etc you might want to download SpaceEngine. It's free planetarium with known astronomical objects along with beautiful procedurally generated planets and moons. It's developed by man of astrophysics BTW and anything you will see in SpaceEngine is scientifically substantiated.

[haloterm]

I was also thinking about the balancing a bit and tend to agree with FotonCat.

I play the Evochron games since some years, mostly in single player, and I am someone who deliberately makes slow progress. But even I notice how relatively easy it is to get a lot of money and build a station quite soon.

matchbox2022 wrote:

"Money I think is meant to be there to have a hold back only on newer players."

I don't think this should be the case. If there is money, it should have a long-term meaning. I'd like Evochron to be a simulation with increasing complexity in all areas, including economy (and it's good that EL took some steps in this direction with the dynamic prices for goods) -- not an amusement park where everybody can easily do everything without effort or restrictions by a realistic universe's rules.

[Kamiyami]

I really do love the idea of rank-restricting certain things to encourage a more well-rounded gameplay approach. If it is implemented, I just hope it isn't so restrictive as to discourage newer players, or those new to the genre, from pressing forward. I for one enjoy combat more than other aspects(though I do try to do a little of everything), but in my experience, starting as a combat pilot in the starting warzone is pretty much the perfect level of challenge, so at least in that aspect rank-restrictions shouldn't be a problem. Perhaps even make high-end weapons(or custom weapons) military rank restricted, to encourage more people to sample the warzones.

On the original subject of station building, I think the metal costs are less effective than steep money costs, or perhaps even making it specific resource costs. Realistically, to build a station you should need at least some electrical components, mechanical components, maybe some transmitters. A little bit of everything, really, in addition to metal. But considering the flavor text of "built remotely, and transported", it seems like the most reasonable cost would be cash. One of my few gripes on station building is the requirement of the full 10 cargo slots full of metal just for the command module, and then potentially having to leave said module completely undefended while you go procure more metal to build more modules. As I said before, I primarily focus on combat, so in order to build stations, I have to refit my ship for max cargo. As far as not making money while mining metal, I find that quite untrue. I've found myself sitting at an asteroid field with my mining beam going, collecting pretty much equal amounts platinum, diamonds, and metal. Walk away, come back to 75 metal, 100 platinum, and 75 diamonds. I go, sell the plat and diamonds for a tidy sum, and store the metal. Rinse and repeat, and I've gathered enough metal for several stations, and made a few million credits while only spending about 20 minutes actually at they computer(and my wife's off my back about chores for a while). I apologize for the rant, but my point is that we might as well just use money to build the stations. It makes the most sense for realism(paying for materials, which would have to be more than just metal), and if the price is high enough(it should be quite expensive to build entire stations), then money doesn't have to lose it's value after you've got the best ship/equipment.

Again, sorry for the rant. It happens to me sometimes.

[matchbox2022]

Ah what you're saying makes sense, especially for using multiple items, not just metal for building objects, and making a bit more of reasons to go to places, especially planets, if you know a certain resource will only be found there for your station.

Custom weapons and engineering work that way, and personally I really really really really really like it, I actually need said "focus units", and need to use the economy map to track one down

I think defend this city / station, assault planet contracts/missions with NPCs and even build this station contracts would be fantastic alone or on MP....to keep the dynamics up. Could easily build a city for a contract, then have a defend that very same city contract as an ALC, or an "assault" the city contract as a FED. From FED/ALC/or VON. with AI friendlies and enemies, dogfighting at the planet surface, and capital ships in orbit duking it out for control / doing planetary bombardments.

Right now, I feel planets are "pretty" to go to, with no real reason to.
Especially on MP, no one wants to dogfight on planets, so it'd be nice to have that as a SP option.

There's so many ideas for the game really, I'm sure it's all mostly easier said than done.

[DaveK]

Now if items became available as rank progressed that'd be more interesting too / harder.

That's very beautiful idea. Evochron Legacy in it's today's state almost looses the challenge point when you have all ships and equipment being just a little more experienxed than the rookie (with second or third rank).

I think you're missing some of the deeper things about the game. It's an open sandbox and there are lots of less obvious things to do over and above the obvious mining/contracts. If that's all you do then even with new things at higher ranks you'll still soon run out of 'new' treats. How do you justify in game having new stuff only for higher ranks? There's quite a lot of things hidden away - the fun is finding them

for example - there are several bits of equipment that can't be bought - only discovered. Have you had a duel with the dudes in the flying saucers yet?

Spending money on gear is only one way of using it. Try the engineering lab.

[Marvin]

Right now, I feel planets are "pretty" to go to, with no real reason to.
Especially on MP, no one wants to dogfight on planets, so it'd be nice to have that as a SP option.

It is. It was. Same as in EM. Any Ace contract you accept while at a city ... some patrol contracts too. Check the Nav map after taking the contract ... and don't head for space in an effort to attack from above ... otherwise the enemy ships will spawn in space instead of planetside.

[Kamiyami]

Now if items became available as rank progressed that'd be more interesting too / harder.

That's very beautiful idea. Evochron Legacy in it's today's state almost looses the challenge point when you have all ships and equipment being just a little more experienxed than the rookie (with second or third rank).

I think you're missing some of the deeper things about the game. It's an open sandbox and there are lots of less obvious things to do over and above the obvious mining/contracts. If that's all you do then even with new things at higher ranks you'll still soon run out of 'new' treats. How do you justify in game having new stuff only for higher ranks? There's quite a lot of things hidden away - the fun is finding them

for example - there are several bits of equipment that can't be bought - only discovered. Have you had a duel with the dudes in the flying saucers yet?

Spending money on gear is only one way of using it. Try the engineering lab.

I think you might have missed the point a tad. What they're suggesting isn't rank-restricting activities or anything like that. The game would still be a complete sandbox, but by adding some rank restrictions to, for example, higher tier ships, players would be encouraged to explore other aspects of the game to progress, besides just mining for quick cash to buy that shiny titan on day 1.

Ideally, players might do some contracts and mining and on day 1 have enough money to buy a titan, but find that their single-mindedness has failed to gain them enough rank to actually unlock it. Perhaps then they'd be encouraged to go explore other aspects of the game to see if they can progress faster. Maybe they go on an exciting treasure hunt, or pick a random direction and see what they eventually run into, or take up arms in defense of their faction.

Just seems to me that without any tangible rewards for gaining rank, some players(albeit the less imaginative) might just spend a few days mining, buy themselves a titan, and then let it collect dust because nothing really pushed them to explore other aspects of the game.

And geez... Sorry for yet another rant. I really can't help myself sometimes.

[CS-ACI-]

Hello,

I think you might have missed the point a tad. What they're suggesting isn't rank-restricting activities or anything like that. The game would still be a complete sandbox, but by adding some rank restrictions to, for example, higher tier ships, players would be encouraged to explore other aspects of the game to progress, besides just mining for quick cash to buy that shiny titan on day 1.

Ideally, players might do some contracts and mining and on day 1 have enough money to buy a titan, but find that their single-mindedness has failed to gain them enough rank to actually unlock it. Perhaps then they'd be encouraged to go explore other aspects of the game to see if they can progress faster. Maybe they go on an exciting treasure hunt, or pick a random direction and see what they eventually run into, or take up arms in defense of their faction.

Just seems to me that without any tangible rewards for gaining rank, some players(albeit the less imaginative) might just spend a few days mining, buy themselves a titan, and then let it collect dust because nothing really pushed them to explore other aspects of the game.

And geez... Sorry for yet another rant. I really can't help myself sometimes.

Have you tried to get a Chimera in a day?

This is a ship you need rank to get, as there are several others too.

This game has more than one path too take, most take one or two but not always the same or in the same order.

Steve

[Kamiyami]

Yeah, I know mil ships are mil-rank dependant, although in EM I did manage to get my chimera in a day. It was a very -very- long day.

[captainedwin]

I'd rather be able to get the stuff I want when I want thanks, it's much more fun having it all right there and dazzling that its a million away, thats enough of a slope for a new player like me.

[Kamiyami]

I'm not so stuck on the idea of rank restrictions, really. Was just a thought.

Mainly I'd love to see station/city building use money instead of metal. It really makes a lot more sense, as the description mentions that the modules are built remotely, and transported in. Given that, it just makes sense that you'd pay money to have the module built and transported. Also, with the module not being built on-location, it makes little sense to need metal on-location for the process.

My main issue is that there are soooo many fun things to do in EL, almost all of which can make you money, directly or indirectly. My personal favorite thing is combat. Problem is, I get to the point in the game where building stations becomes a bit of a necessity, and become shoehorned into mining metal in vast quantities. On top of that, my ship -requires- 10 cargo bays to hold enough metal for a single command module. I'm required to spend a lot of time both mining, and managing the metal in my hangars. I end up making lots of money by being a proficient combat pilot, and that money basically loses it's value once I've decked out my ship the way I want it. I also lose a lot of my combat capability by having to have 10 cargo bays, where I normally only have 3-5 for picking up loot from my victims. Most of my time spent mining is actually time spent playing on my phone or watching TV. Short mining trips are fun enough when you find a great market, but it's rather tedious when you have to mine thousands of units of metal ore at a time. I'd much rather be able to go do whatever I want for fun to make money to build stations and cities than be shoehorned into a singularly focused method.

In conclusion, I think using money to build stations/cities not only makes more sense, but would make the game more fun.

[Ducimus]

All this discussion on making bases a more drawn out affair, I have to wonder if base building itself is a meta game in terms of territorial control, and given the number and size of regions it leads me to think the costs of bases were made the way they are for a reason.

Small story. I'm selling a load of plat and am leaving deneb. On a lark I ask an npc for info. He gives me these cords for some POI. I start looking into it, and it looks like the nearest gate to this location is sapphire. In sapphire I punch in the cords and notice this place is 750 sectors away. 20 minutes and the discovery of two star systems later I find this POI is in a 100 tech disputed system with a star, a tech planet.

Long story short, I fly alllllllll the way back to sapphire, then to pearl re-equip, load up 10 cargo hold slots with metal, then go all the way back. Once there I blow my entire load for a command center. Nearest asteroid field 13 sectors away, mine more. Once everything is established, I notice territorial control has doubled. Sweet I think! Then it hits me, civil engineering in space. Establish outposts, gain control. Looking very closely at the territorial control map, it's obvious that what occurs to me is a massive undertaking that would take weeks, if not months of dedicated play.

Personally, given the amount time it would take to establish multiple base ( time spent in mining, and transit into deep space), I think the cost to create a base is fine as it is.

[pilotnewbextraordinaire]

I'd have to agree as it takes me a great amount of time to put together a station. That time could be better spent doing other things but I'll spend it putting a base together for many reasons. I took part in an epic battle because the place that I chose to put my station didn't sit well with the other side. I built the command center and then went to harvest some more metal because I knew I couldn't leave it there without protection. All hell was breaking loose when I jumped back to the station to continue building.

Both factions threw capital ship after capital ship at the area and enough fighters to cover them. Many a brave soul lost their lives that day. Eventually I had to jump out of the region and start doing other things because the battle just wasn't ending. After all of that I have to ask; What is the cost of a station then? Monetarily, nothing at all but much more has to go into one than just financial resources.

[Kamiyami]

I can certainly see both of your points, and they're extremely valid. I'll avoid another rant, but I still feel that it's not very fair to make a core aspect of the game so exclusive of so many other core aspects, like combat, and exploration. I'd much rather spend my precious gaming time fighting sorties, or exploring uncharted space than just mining, which is not a bad part of the game, but usually just involves me playing something else on my phone while my cargo fills up. My three favorite activities in EL, are combat, exploration, and station building(empire expansion), in that order. I know everyone's tastes are different, but I personally feel like I'm being somewhat persecuted for liking combat more than mining.

All that said(and I really need to work on curbing my enthusiasm), I love the game, love the community, and wish I could throw a LOT more money at Vice for making my favorite game in decades. I just wish I had more choice in how I earn my stations/cities. If a command module cost, for example, 5 million credits to build, I could earn that through a lot of combat, a lot of mining, or even a lot of exploration. The amount of effort wouldn't change much, just the type of effort.

[Marvin]

Long story short, I fly alllllllll the way back to sapphire, then to pearl re-equip, load up 10 cargo hold slots with metal, then go all the way back.

The trip sounds familiar. All except the shuttling back and forth to and from Sapphire ... when, in fact, asteroid fields abound en route.

[matchbox2022]

what you are saying makes sense

I have an idea that might make mining a little more fun...and based on some chemistry

Basically, what would you say to instead of moving the joystick around to mine a bit faster, you could "play a mini-game" and the mining if you succeeded.....would be a much,, much, MUCH, much faster payout (think the speed of picking up what's in a cargo container)

HOWEVER. in order to mine correctly, you would need to do a scan of the asteroid, and minerals it has would be shown as a changing spectrum.

Basically like a mini-game....anyone who's played Elite Force 2 will understand.

Then you would need to use the mouse, and adjust your beams changing spectrum to that one via maybe...4 points. If you get a match, you start mining like crazy hobo speed the minerals that are there, if you don't, you still mine, but its at the general slow snail pace.

Your tractor beam could change color hue and sound pitch as well as you change its frequency.

The idea for this came from doing IR spectrometry in the lab, where routinely you hit particles with an IR laser, and only certain molecules will stretch, bend or get excited.

So I could selectively make a laser that excites everything in a sample with the right attenuation and frequencies. I could blast it with just any light, but that isn't selective and might only excite what's there a little bit, whereas a direct frequency excitation for the same energy will cause serious stretching and heating.

Here's an example of water
So something like that would....well match water! And you'd be mining quicker as a result (it doesn't "have to be water we'd mine faster" for gameplay right.....we don't care, it's a mini-game)

http://webbook.nist.gov/cgi/cbook.cgi?S ... =1&Type=IR




The specialized mining beams could be similar, but the spectrum would be much smaller, maybe two points at most to move.......and easier......and you'd only be getting that one thing "generally".

That's a tall order, but an idea.
who's in?



[Edited on 3-22-2016 by matchbox2022]