From post: 186205, Topic: tid=12492, author=SamKillitson wrote:...you might consider adding a module or frame component that works as a Faraday cage.
Change Disruptors?
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DaveK
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I think I could but you'd lose the flame effect. A large and energetic EMP induces high currents and voltages in electronic equipment and can either burn them out or overload their control software (the latter allowing the ship to recover slowly) At present wide area powerful EMP's are created by air burst nukes hence the all round effectFrom post: 186126, Topic: tid=12492, author=Marvin wrote:This gets complicated. Cities have an entire planet they could use for grounding out EMP. Stations might have the power to increase shield strength above the EMP level. Ships, on the other hand (even capital ships) shouldn't have the power reserves to defeat EMP. Maybe Dave can address the possibility that EMP wouldn't also create a destructive blast wave.
Smaller short range EMP weapons can be made using chemical explosives as the energy source but would still be omnidirectional
Technically there's no reason why it has to the a spherical pulse - by using a wave guide you could create a directional pulse coming out as a cone or parallel beam in front of the missile Such a HERF gun is easy to make (google directional EMP weapons to make at home!) That way you could limit the stun/kill zone - a surgical strike weapon with minimised collateral damage.
For a given energy store you could have longer range directional EMP missiles (parallel or conical spread of the pulse) or shorter range omnidirectional ones if that would enhance gameplay. And without the blast effect:P
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SamKillitson
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From post: 186207, Topic: tid=12492, author=Marvin wrote:From post: 186205, Topic: tid=12492, author=SamKillitson wrote:...you might consider adding a module or frame component that works as a Faraday cage.Doesn't a Faraday need to be grounded? Which brings up a question: How does the ISS ground out static electricity?
All I'm saying is that for balance any powerful weapon like this should be countered by an equally powerful defense.
It should be costly to defend against and it should be costly to implement its usage.
I'm pretty sure the idea of shields is bunk also, but we have them.
I'm looking for anything online about NASA usage of Farady cage systems in space.
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SamKillitson
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In my mind, bonding to the frame would allow for a Faraday in space. I'm still not so sure.
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Sinbad
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If the launch of such an EMP device is detected with a few seconds of advanced notice, a skilled pilot with their wits about them could jump away. That would be sufficient defence against such a weapon. But it would require some skill and fast reactions. If you're in the middle of a dogfight you may not notice the launch warning... then you'll be caught in the blast radius.

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SamKillitson
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Another thing to consider is that the defense for such a EMP weapon should cost the player its frame advantage and also maybe a equipment slot.
Should then the EMP weapon effect radius not be also limited to the ship that uses it rather than a missile? It should cost the using ship its frame advantage + an equipment slot as well and due to its offensive nature should be limited to a proximity distance between the offensive ship and the intended or maybe even not so intended victim.
Friendly fire should be a factor.
[Edited on 3-2-2016 by SamKillitson]
The weapon should be proximity based and come as a pulse from the ship itself which should have some detrimental cost in energy.
If a player does not invest in the frame defense + the equipment requirement to defend against this pulse they take the full effect.
[Edited on 3-2-2016 by SamKillitson]
Should then the EMP weapon effect radius not be also limited to the ship that uses it rather than a missile? It should cost the using ship its frame advantage + an equipment slot as well and due to its offensive nature should be limited to a proximity distance between the offensive ship and the intended or maybe even not so intended victim.
Friendly fire should be a factor.
[Edited on 3-2-2016 by SamKillitson]
The weapon should be proximity based and come as a pulse from the ship itself which should have some detrimental cost in energy.
If a player does not invest in the frame defense + the equipment requirement to defend against this pulse they take the full effect.
[Edited on 3-2-2016 by SamKillitson]
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1) Faraday cages route electrical pulses around and away from a protected object, they do not require being "grounded" since shorting to an isolated framework is sufficient.
2) The disruptor mines don't come with warnings. :evil grin:
2) The disruptor mines don't come with warnings. :evil grin:
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Marvin
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If the shielding of Legacy ships, stations and cities is based in part on the Helmholtz and Maxwell coils then a Faraday cage would be unnecessary. The standard shield would block EMP as effectively as it blocks energy weapons. But a high-energy EMP could overload the shielding ... as it would also overload and punch holes in a Faraday cage. Ships would be most susceptible to an overload. (As for current EMP weapons, they work best on power lines and unshielded electronic fly-by-wire equipment.)
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DeathTech
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What is being talked about here is griefing tool #1.
A weapon designed to make no one want to play again after getting hit by it.
Fully stripping away shields off a player means you may aswell insta kill them because players rarely last much longer than their shield.
Stripping from a station means you may aswell not bother putting shields on them at all because of shields have become fully pointless to the game at that point.
Leaching power / shield regen I guess sure.
Mess with target lock / mdts please god yes.
Mess with stealth. No. You are seriously at that point just negating an entire type of ship build making them useless.
As for friendly fire and any notion of AOE. No, NO NO NONONONONONONONONO. #Griefing.
No AOE because that invites griefing and makes for unrealistic. As well as accidental misfires means instant your entire faction hates you.
If this weapon were to exist it should only work like a missile as in targeted shaped charge style.
A point blank EMP burst directed at a single ship. This makes it not too griefy. And not to over powered.
It hits only one person and that person is WEAKENED not DEAD.
EDIT:
Emphasis on "DISRUPT" not "DISABLE" you are speaking "DISABLE".
I shall compare this as a reference to dota or league of legends.
This is comparatively the "press one button to win game" ability. And those ruin games to the point no one wants to play them anymore.
So I'm fully against the idea because I like this game. And would like to play it for longer.
Any inclusion of such an unbalanced concept would make me never want to play it again (in any pvp multiplayer fashion.).
So far this game is pretty balanced. Why ruin that?
[Edited on 3-2-2016 by DeathTech]
A weapon designed to make no one want to play again after getting hit by it.
Fully stripping away shields off a player means you may aswell insta kill them because players rarely last much longer than their shield.
Stripping from a station means you may aswell not bother putting shields on them at all because of shields have become fully pointless to the game at that point.
Leaching power / shield regen I guess sure.
Mess with target lock / mdts please god yes.
Mess with stealth. No. You are seriously at that point just negating an entire type of ship build making them useless.
As for friendly fire and any notion of AOE. No, NO NO NONONONONONONONONO. #Griefing.
No AOE because that invites griefing and makes for unrealistic. As well as accidental misfires means instant your entire faction hates you.
If this weapon were to exist it should only work like a missile as in targeted shaped charge style.
A point blank EMP burst directed at a single ship. This makes it not too griefy. And not to over powered.
It hits only one person and that person is WEAKENED not DEAD.
EDIT:
Emphasis on "DISRUPT" not "DISABLE" you are speaking "DISABLE".
I shall compare this as a reference to dota or league of legends.
This is comparatively the "press one button to win game" ability. And those ruin games to the point no one wants to play them anymore.
So I'm fully against the idea because I like this game. And would like to play it for longer.
Any inclusion of such an unbalanced concept would make me never want to play it again (in any pvp multiplayer fashion.).
So far this game is pretty balanced. Why ruin that?
[Edited on 3-2-2016 by DeathTech]
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As I understand from Vice's proposal so far is that the weapon will affect the firerer equally as much as the intended target. For the firerer to avoid the effect of his own EMP launch he would need to immediately jump out after launching. In both cases the intended victim has plenty of time to decide what best action to take... call for help, afterburn to high speed, plot an escape jump for when jump drive comes back online, or manuever to return fire when weapons are back online. In addition it takes 10 seconds to arm and launch the weapon. All that taken into account, I think it would actually make it difficult to be used as a griefing tool.

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I'll change the text color as need be.
As far as "another item for balance".
This is already attemptingto put a crazy priced weapon already in balance.
It wwon't need a counter and the idea is for it to change the gameplay up. And to make single player easier if you so choose. Not to be an instant death weapon like fulcrum torpedoes were. Right now they were tweaked wayyyy too far in the weak category.
Look at missiles and their counter ams! How's that working out for yah. Generally speaking....useless. I'm also trying to make an idea that limits the work vice would be doing.
As far as "another item for balance".
This is already attemptingto put a crazy priced weapon already in balance.
It wwon't need a counter and the idea is for it to change the gameplay up. And to make single player easier if you so choose. Not to be an instant death weapon like fulcrum torpedoes were. Right now they were tweaked wayyyy too far in the weak category.
Look at missiles and their counter ams! How's that working out for yah. Generally speaking....useless. I'm also trying to make an idea that limits the work vice would be doing.
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SamKillitson
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Everything needs a counter.From post: 186239, Topic: tid=12492, author=matchbox2022 wrote:I'll change the text color as need be.
As far as "another item for balance".
This is already attemptingto put a crazy priced weapon already in balance.
It wwon't need a counter and the idea is for it to change the gameplay up. And to make single player easier if you so choose. Not to be an instant death weapon like fulcrum torpedoes were. Right now they were tweaked wayyyy too far in the weak category.
Look at missiles and their counter ams! How's that working out for yah. Generally speaking....useless. I'm also trying to make an idea that limits the work vice would be doing.
Countermeasures could use a little balance as well.
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DeathTech
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In that case thats exactly what it would be used for.From post: 186236, Topic: tid=12492, author=Sinbad wrote:As I understand from Vice's proposal so far is that the weapon will affect the firerer equally as much as the intended target. For the firerer to avoid the effect of his own EMP launch he would need to immediately jump out after launching. In both cases the intended victim has plenty of time to decide what best action to take... call for help, afterburn to high speed, plot an escape jump for when jump drive comes back online, or manuever to return fire when weapons are back online. In addition it takes 10 seconds to arm and launch the weapon. All that taken into account, I think it would actually make it difficult to be used as a griefing tool.
It disables someone. And the person shooting it doesn't get any real befit from it if they avoid it themselves.
This means the only reasonal usage in a non-griefing intent is to fire it at someone when they are in your sights, disabling all their shields in one shot and then finishing them off without needing beams.
Again stating, shields are no longer participant in combat then. e.g. insta-kill.
EDIT:
Actualy on second though, both beam and shield become useless at that point. Because the purpose of beam is to take care of shields and keep them low.
So that is several big game features negated by a single item.
Doesn't sound fair or balanced at all.
& Also if its supposed to be emp effects you should be changing the emp missile not the disruptor.
As I understand the disruptor is supposed to be like a shaped charge. Puncturing and overloading a single system (jump drive).
What is proposed is a high yield EMP device.
Hence it should be called EMP and should in that case be a replacement for the EMP's we have. Not disruptors.
If the disruptor doesn't work like a shaped charge there is virtually no difference to the EMP. And in that case, why are they even two different missiles? In fact, in that case there should be no difference to the disruptor and emp missiles and they should just be the same missile.
And regardless of the price I would like everyone in this thread to remember that it is very easy to grief in this game with something like this because your game is not saved for you unless you intentionally save.
So the same lets say 10 million missile. Can be launched an infinite of griefy annoying times. Its literally so abusable that I can imagine popular servers intentionally writing into their rules a ban for this weapon in particular.
I would compare it to the AWP from counter-strike. Overpowered and banned on 90% of servers because of the imbalance to other weapons. If and when I do host a server of any game, I ban these kinds of weapons.
[Edited on 3-2-2016 by DeathTech]
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Marvin
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There used to be a player named Romulan who could use the stealth device with devastating affect. The only counter was to make certain you didn't engage him on his turf.
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Sinbad
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I remember the Romulan
Annoying for new players, but he did make MP more interesting. Usually more experienced players would come to the aid of his intended victims.
DeathTech: I can see your point about players just firing off an EMP for the hell of it then jumping away. But what's the worst that can happen...? You get left without shields, weapons, and jump drive for a few moments. If the player comes back to repeat it, by then you'll know who it was and you just go to a different sector to avoid him. If he follows you to hassle you, well there's almost always an expereinced player online who would love to come and defend. That's what happened with Romulan... he would pester newbies but he rarely had the cance to do for long because someone would come along and shoot him up.
In EM the old Fulcrum Torpedoes were sometimes used for griefing... in that case it was more serious because the FTs would actually destroy you. That's why they were removed from the game. But IMHO getting dunked by an EMP blast isn't going to be a big interuption in my gameplay, unless I was in the middle of a combat contract. Actually I think it would add a little extra excitement. But then if the player continues to harass, I'll just call for help from someone.
I also see your point about the comparison with the Leech missile. However I think there are significant differences as it stands presently... the EMP disruptor affects everything in the radius including the person who fired it, so it would need to be used more tactfully in a combat situation... perhaps as a last resort defense option. On the other hand the Leech only affects the target it hits, not the person who fired it. It also causes weapons to be offline for longer than the Disruptor. So the Leech has that advantage in combat (assuming of course you successfully hit the target).
DeathTech: I can see your point about players just firing off an EMP for the hell of it then jumping away. But what's the worst that can happen...? You get left without shields, weapons, and jump drive for a few moments. If the player comes back to repeat it, by then you'll know who it was and you just go to a different sector to avoid him. If he follows you to hassle you, well there's almost always an expereinced player online who would love to come and defend. That's what happened with Romulan... he would pester newbies but he rarely had the cance to do for long because someone would come along and shoot him up.
In EM the old Fulcrum Torpedoes were sometimes used for griefing... in that case it was more serious because the FTs would actually destroy you. That's why they were removed from the game. But IMHO getting dunked by an EMP blast isn't going to be a big interuption in my gameplay, unless I was in the middle of a combat contract. Actually I think it would add a little extra excitement. But then if the player continues to harass, I'll just call for help from someone.
I also see your point about the comparison with the Leech missile. However I think there are significant differences as it stands presently... the EMP disruptor affects everything in the radius including the person who fired it, so it would need to be used more tactfully in a combat situation... perhaps as a last resort defense option. On the other hand the Leech only affects the target it hits, not the person who fired it. It also causes weapons to be offline for longer than the Disruptor. So the Leech has that advantage in combat (assuming of course you successfully hit the target).

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DaveK
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The workings of a faraday cage is one of those bits of technology that most have a vague idea about but few actually have bothered/needed to nail. The following is much simplified. If you want details let Google be your guide - which is what I did. 
I'm not sure whether it actually matters to the outcomes of this discussion but a faraday cage doesn't have to be grounded to work. Many (most?) are grounded but for other reasons than protecting the contents - for example if a power supply is external then the equipment will probably require a ground connection; our ships are self contained and so can function without grounding - they supply the grounding needed by any equipment that needs it.
A faraday cage works because the hollow metal conductor can redistribute the charge induced on it by an external emp. The result is that the field on the inside is balanced by the field an the outside and the overall effect is that the inside doesn't become charged. The pulse energy is dissipated through resistance heating as the current flows around the outside of the cage.
Consequently you could technically make our ships into mobile fc's by modifying hull construction. Stations likewise won't suffer from the lack of grounding.
Fc's aren't powered so a station, merc ship or capital ship can be shielded - a grounded cage can handle higher emp's because the current can be leaked to the ground, but cooling an ungrounded cage (so the cage doesn't melt as it heats because it's resistance) could increase the EMP pulse strength it can cope with.
And I still think that if a disruptor is significantly powerful (for example to take out a capital ship's electronics) then cap ships would be fitted with weapon systems that would take down any and every hostile approaching the disruptor's effective range or with a threatening flight path.
Leeches logically work for small ship/small ship combat - I can't see an EMP system powerful enough to take down a cap ship fitting into a missile small enough to fit into a merc ship - unless you have one that takes up all the weapon hardpoints - just a thought

[Edited on 2-3-2016 by DaveK]
I'm not sure whether it actually matters to the outcomes of this discussion but a faraday cage doesn't have to be grounded to work. Many (most?) are grounded but for other reasons than protecting the contents - for example if a power supply is external then the equipment will probably require a ground connection; our ships are self contained and so can function without grounding - they supply the grounding needed by any equipment that needs it.
A faraday cage works because the hollow metal conductor can redistribute the charge induced on it by an external emp. The result is that the field on the inside is balanced by the field an the outside and the overall effect is that the inside doesn't become charged. The pulse energy is dissipated through resistance heating as the current flows around the outside of the cage.
Consequently you could technically make our ships into mobile fc's by modifying hull construction. Stations likewise won't suffer from the lack of grounding.
Fc's aren't powered so a station, merc ship or capital ship can be shielded - a grounded cage can handle higher emp's because the current can be leaked to the ground, but cooling an ungrounded cage (so the cage doesn't melt as it heats because it's resistance) could increase the EMP pulse strength it can cope with.
And I still think that if a disruptor is significantly powerful (for example to take out a capital ship's electronics) then cap ships would be fitted with weapon systems that would take down any and every hostile approaching the disruptor's effective range or with a threatening flight path.
Leeches logically work for small ship/small ship combat - I can't see an EMP system powerful enough to take down a cap ship fitting into a missile small enough to fit into a merc ship - unless you have one that takes up all the weapon hardpoints - just a thought
[Edited on 2-3-2016 by DaveK]
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The compromise to this is that the firing player also loses their shields, a draw of an effect you could say where neither one has the advantage. Both would likely boost power to recharge shields faster, but if both are anywhere near weapon range to each other, both will suffer the loss of shield arrays.Fully stripping away shields off a player means you may aswell insta kill them because players rarely last much longer than their shield.
As indicated, this would not affect station/city modules, which would be able to survive the EMP blast through more extensive protection from the EMP pulse. Their shields and combat systems will remain online.Stripping from a station means you may aswell not bother putting shields on them at all because of shields have become fully pointless to the game at that point.
Also as indicated, this would not impact stealth devices or generators. Ships will be able to remain cloaked after such a weapon is used.Mess with stealth. No. You are seriously at that point just negating an entire type of ship build making them useless.
There are already targeting weapons for this, including both disabling the jump drive as well as EMP. This weapon would be something different, a more broad scope fighter/combat suppression weapon. But with limitations previously listed. Hopefully, the points you raised and how they will not be factors will help remedy certain concerns.A point blank EMP burst directed at a single ship. This makes it not too griefy. And not to over powered.
It hits only one person and that person is WEAKENED not DEAD.
The alert, counter, and escape options will continue to be available. So all players in the sector will be notified that such a weapon is being armed a full 10 seconds before it is allowed to be fired. Much of the time, a player will be able to escape the attack either by jumping away or simply after burning away (and even if they don't escape the blast radius, they can put enough distance between them and an attacker to give their shields enough time to recover).
What would prevent the receiving player from firing back? And what would prevent the receiving player from escaping? The attacking player would also have to wait before they could begin an attack with non-beam weapons. So with answers to these, it will help me build further on a decision to include or exclude such changes.This means the only reasonal usage in a non-griefing intent is to fire it at someone when they are in your sights, disabling all their shields in one shot and then finishing them off without needing beams.
Since the effects go well beyond EMP, the 'disruptor' label is probably more appropriate for what the changes would do to the original weapon (EMP, shields, and jump drive). It would disrupt three categories of systems rather than one.Also if its supposed to be emp effects you should be changing the emp missile not the disruptor.
A good point to consider. The changes may be more of an annoyance to most players rather than a benefit. The goal would be to restrict all ships in the area, not just the receivers. Rather, a more leveling of the playing field overall.So the same lets say 10 million missile. Can be launched an infinite of griefy annoying times. Its literally so abusable that I can imagine popular servers intentionally writing into their rules a ban for this weapon in particular.
I would compare it to the AWP from counter-strike. Overpowered and banned on 90% of servers because of the imbalance to other weapons. If and when I do host a server of any game, I ban these kinds of weapons.
The primary objective of the weapon would still be to disable the jump drive for a rather long period of time, much like it does now. By adding in a short EMP effect, that gives (all) players a brief window of time to either plan an escape or set their energy settings to prepare for localized battle. Once the EMP effect is over, the battle or escape can begin. The next phase is the shield effect. If a player opted to recharge their shields quickly, they'd likely find them already in the yellow by the time the EMP effect ends (I've been trying to sequence/time it this way). This of course could be adjusted further for more/less time for restoring shields before the systems are back online. The final effect of disabling the jump drive would still apply like it does now. So basically, the changes would aim to simply add delays to other actions to give players preparation time, rather than inhibiting what they can do. The only potential exception to this would be how long of a time is provided for shield recharging. If less EMP time, less shield recharge time. If more EMP time, shields may be able to fully recharge by the time weapons come online.
Very good discussion and points on both sides, thanks for the feedback. Hopefully, the details above will help address some concerns while bringing up some additional considerations to review.
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Updated First Post to reflect discussion and general consensus....so far.
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matchbox2022
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@ Vice specifically.
Had a last minute thought before bed.
There is one thing if this goes through I'm really worried about for multiplayer most of all.
In all the disorientation of this thing, with shields knocked out.
What's to stop someone from launching excaliburs or missiles and simply dominate the battle? No one will be able to do much without shields in that case....weapons maybe if they are very fast and CM.
Would rather this be a "game changing" adapt your tactics feature.......than a "well I'm going to die in a second when he's in missile range" feature obviously.
Is the option to disable target locks while the effect is engaged a potential winner or loser when it comes to that point especially.
Just thinking if the entire area is saturated in interference....then really a tracking device like a missile shouldn't work.... at least for a while.
[Edited on 3-3-2016 by matchbox2022]
[Edited on 3-3-2016 by matchbox2022]
Had a last minute thought before bed.
There is one thing if this goes through I'm really worried about for multiplayer most of all.
In all the disorientation of this thing, with shields knocked out.
What's to stop someone from launching excaliburs or missiles and simply dominate the battle? No one will be able to do much without shields in that case....weapons maybe if they are very fast and CM.
Would rather this be a "game changing" adapt your tactics feature.......than a "well I'm going to die in a second when he's in missile range" feature obviously.
Is the option to disable target locks while the effect is engaged a potential winner or loser when it comes to that point especially.
Just thinking if the entire area is saturated in interference....then really a tracking device like a missile shouldn't work.... at least for a while.
[Edited on 3-3-2016 by matchbox2022]
[Edited on 3-3-2016 by matchbox2022]
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Sinbad
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The Disruptor also knocks out HUD displays. That means no missile targeting. The time it takes to get the HUD back online would be the same for both the attacker and the victim, giving both an equal chance to return fire with missiles and/or primary weapons. Both would also have shield levels reduced equally. Of course the difference is how each player decides to use their power management after the EMP blast... charge shields first or charge weapons first?

Universe Explorers Clan
[UE]Sinbad
Clan Leader
Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. - Carl Sagan
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Marvin
- Global Moderator

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From post: 186298, Topic: tid=12492, author=Sinbad wrote:.... charge shields first or charge weapons first?
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Vice
- Administrator

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The 10 second delay, 10 second pre-launch arming alert, and knocking out the HUD should provide adequate protections against such missile attacks. A coordinated attack could attempt to be set up, but with 10 seconds of preparation time, players would have quite a while to plan an evasion. If it wasn't enough and there were somehow missiles in flight, we could have the EMP blast just simply detonate any missiles that are in range.
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Marvin
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Wouldn't that mean firing a missile ... then firing the EMP and hoping the missile doesn't impact or self-destruct for the 10-second EMP arming duration?From post: 186307, Topic: tid=12492, author=Vice wrote:If it wasn't enough and there were somehow missiles in flight....
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Vice
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Yup, which would be pretty tricky to do. Plus, the player has that time with full weapons and shields to evade.
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Radikal
- Lieutenant

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With this setup I would use the mine instead of the "torpedo" version.
Especially useful in MP with wingmen; one pilot sacrifices by diving into a mass of opposition ships and drops a mine, the wingmen who stayed outside blast radius then come in and attack effected ships. Sounds like a great plan for those players that like to be aggressive or engage in pirate-like activities.
This could be a wonderful weapon that requires strategy to be truly effective, making it a good device to bring MP players together.
Especially useful in MP with wingmen; one pilot sacrifices by diving into a mass of opposition ships and drops a mine, the wingmen who stayed outside blast radius then come in and attack effected ships. Sounds like a great plan for those players that like to be aggressive or engage in pirate-like activities.
This could be a wonderful weapon that requires strategy to be truly effective, making it a good device to bring MP players together.

