Change Disruptors?

[matchbox2022]

So as per a little talk with Vice about it,
I wonder how many people here would be actually serious about this. I've discussed it before, so here is what I had originally wrote

As far as I've been able to tell, Leech's are quite a fun little EMP grenade, what isn't so fun is firing a disruptor, having an incredible flash and boom along with its price......is very climatic, only to realize it does little more than act as peanut butter in your jump drive. It makes it little more than a very expensive dazzle weapon.

Far from the fulcrum torpedos / instant death warheads of old, I wish to ask the public here how they would feel if, instead of acting as instant death weapons, that disruptors indeed disrupted everything.

Things the public generally want GREEN DECIDED

Ideas they are strongly Against are in RED DECIDED

Older ideas still being decided via posts WHITE UNDECIDED

New ideas brought up for further discussion, but may be difficult for coding to implement YELLOW UNDECIDED

As of last update are READY FOR PLAY TESTING, and feedback areBLUE READY

KEEP IN MIND, none of this is in stone and is up to Vice in the end. Colours and votes are simply to try to get a feel for what's out there and gameplay "temporary" switchups.


Due to some people voting oddly even though they want changes;

If you are FOR things in GREEN, please vote yes to this post, no damage,

or

"Tweak" things from this post.

That should REALLY be the majority of people commenting.

The other two options should be self-explanatory.


-->IDEAS<---
All ships and stations in the vicinity at the moment of detonation would have;


- Shields lowered to red levels, but no damage applied to hull/systems, for all ships, including capital ships for a given amount of time, but shorter than the current jump drive disable time...which would remain.

- STATIONS would not be affected...or only somewhat


- Jump drives would still not function for the given time, explosion and effect radius would remain the same.


- The animation could be changed to a large scale more electrical / ionic kind of explosion, think blues and purples or a white flash or sorts with electric arcs, or even a rapidly expanding shield animation......as opposed to a fiery red explosion, when no actual damage is being applied.




- Missiles and Guidance systems would be unable to track targets, target locks for missiles and MDTS / Beam weapon locks would not work during the affected time. Only dumbfire / no computer assist weapons such as beams, mines, (or any dumbfire missiles if added) could be fired...that with lowered shielding would radically change frame point configuration considerations and the combat tactics for the allotted Area Effect EMP time, requiring the players AND AI to adapt .


- Only Particle Cannons could be fired due to lack of target locks.


- A general announcement over Chat box would be issued upon the launch of a disruptor, (being it is a highly energetic device and very detectable)...detailing a LAUNCH
.... and WHICH specific ship is about to launch the EMP disruptor the moment a launch is initiated. Times to launch would be default time (10 seconds), allowing time to escape via jump or via stealth to ride out the blast in safety...... OR potentially engage to destroy the opponent human player or AI attempting to fire.



- Whatever the case, any penalty to the person's ship itself launching a disruptor should be limited to just ONE of these or another idea, be it mass, energy, whatever is chosen, but only a "singular" penalty to said ship.


-Yourself or friendly ships would be affected if in the blast or (optional) damage range.


- Capitals ships, Humans and AI ships, could succumb to less overall shield drain based on the distance from the explosion center. Progressing from 100% to 0% shield drainage at the explosion range limit (4k radius?).


- Stealth would be operable, and STAY operable if engaged and running ONLY BEFORE the event and they are within explosion range.
The Leech effect would still hit them, as well as with the penalties above, however, they are able to STAY in stealth mode after being hit by the Disruptor.


If an explosion happens and stealth was not engaged before it occurred, you must wait for shields to recharge before stealth engaged as per its usual operation


A SINGLE penalty to the launching ship, being whatever is deemed acceptable,
more slots used, more mass, or potentially losing all energy at launch / detonation.


These changes would give the impression that it is indeed a mini-nuclear EMP weapon, designed to knock out electrical based systems, and well worth the price in a capital ship assault with all the shield stacking going on.







Please do tell your thoughts













[Edited on 3-17-2016 by matchbox2022]

Everything has been compressed over the last few weeks, stragglers who haven't seen this poll are welcome to add input and most definitely vote to change to this, not change, or tweak.



[Edited on 3-24-2016 by matchbox2022]

[CS-ACI-]

Hello,

A big NO too the 10x Exodus missile idea. That would make it a station killer.

As it stands with all the recent tweaking, a space station now lasts a bit longer when under attack.

Steve

[Marvin]

This might work in MP where players can use teamwork: one player deploys the disruptor while the second remains out of range until after detonation. But how would it work in SP?

[DaveK]

I think part of the background problem is that Vice has made the Evoverse a sandbox. It means that for much of the possible activity (or inactivity) players can choose their style of play and go on their happy way without impacting on the playing styles of the rest.

... for much of ...! This seems to be an example of where someone's wishlist contains factors that impact on everyone in quite a significant way. With the whole big disruptor thing there are knock on effects that, even if the original idea is persuasive, need to be taken into account and possibly lead to other changes to the game play.

It seems to come down to the grist of a referendum (we're big on referenda in the UK at the moment ) How many people want to be able in their little 50m individual merc frames to take down a 2000m capital ship sufficiently to they can finish it off with cannon and missiles; Solo Viper vs a Battlestar? On the other hand, how many people want the attacks on the big boys to be a cooperative (ie MP) event, simply because you need a good squadron with you; in SP you'll be able to hire a wing. This keeps the mystique of the big hard boys who need a lot of work and effort to take down.

Great for democracy ... but the Evoverse isn't - Vice listens and them makes up his own mind

I'd love to know at this point how many players (not forum posters) are itching to be able to single handedly take out a cap ship, how many want it to be cooperative so cap ships don't simply become giant small ships and how many really don't care because it's not part of their gameplan.

If a method can be developed with a reasonable science/techy explanation about how such a powerful weapon can be carried by such a small ship, then I would argue strongly that the really big ship/station would have even better versions (more, longer range, more power) and would pick off any hostile entering the system We could then have a discussion about the new super stealth system that would be needed to allow the little ships to survive long enough to get close enough to even see the station/cap ships.

My two penneth/cents: If it is possible (like Goldilocks - not too hard but not too easy; just right) to take down a station/cap ship with suitable tweaking of the present arrangement then there needs to be some very good reasons offered for introducing major new bits of equipment; for me 'cool' and 'I'd love to be able to ...' aren't enough to persuade me of the need.

[matchbox2022]

I was honestly just thinking they are a huge explosion with no impact. Think of the older fulcrum torpedoes...I'm sure ppl used those lots. Im not trying to bring them back just unnerf them. I think they were balanced but went waaaay too far left wing so to speak....and this is about retweaks not getting the death star torpedo of old. ( though i personally liked it)I'll post to steam as well maybe.
Hell could bring back those even or to these you could add an announcement that it was launched (like most games with nukes)and any ship with the (power) could escape. NPC or otherwise...limiting its use further to a fur ball in progress or the beginning of a ship assault. Stations would be less effected. Also I don't think the effects should stack if someone can afford to spam fire 8 of them....they would have to shoot another area until time is up for jump drive offline 180 seconds... or it'd be a waste
On topic ofcloak...if ththis is an area effect weapon then that should get disabled upon detonation if the cloaked is in this emp blast range too. Anything "techy" shouldn't be able to work. Excepted stations and bases which may have literal grounding and Faraday caged computers.
People could still plan attacks on capital ships with these and its much less disruptive than fulcrum to rps. Keep in mind the price typically will outweigh their use. I think they should be less effective against stations however...so PPP can't solo attack them. It'd be nice if it still disabled a stations weapons for a time giving ppl a chance to take them out. They are much stronger now. I'm personally against them being more effective than that though....based on players wanting stations to stay alive more than not.
Also if an emp an animation change would make it more authentic...with all thelarge sscale ness shaking and sound still there ...
Right meow...they are just silly gimicks

[Edited on 2-27-2016 by matchbox2022]

[Edited on 2-27-2016 by matchbox2022]

[DaveK]

I was on the receiving end of a player using Leeches - He didn't give me any warning and it took me a while to realise what was happening but the effect from the receiving end was impressive - no jump drive for 3 minutes (?) a lot of rattling around = disorientation ...

The only way I manage to escape (using several years experience of running away ) was to put him on my tail, hit inertial and use the afterburner to get up to 9000+. The pilot admitted that at that speed he couldn't predict my position accurately enough to jump ahead of me and lock onto me.

So from my perspective, Leeches work fine and do just what they are intended to do - stop other merc ships doing a runner by jumping

As for FT's - they're basically far too tempting; un-nerffing (still not sure what that means) them presumably means pulling their teeth until they're in the Goldilock's zone - but that's the point really; you're ideal is probably my spoiler and my ideal seems to be probably your 'they're useless'

An announcement that someone has launched a missile that is about to charcoal my butt doesn't seem 'helpful' as much as gloating. Still a counter-EMP missile that frazzles the emp missiles detonation electronics might be useful - or perhaps it could be incorporated in the normal ECM launcher system - free at every refill

As for the other stuff, I can see where you are coming from, but why should a weapon only work at 'the beginning of a ship assault' or how could it be limited to 'a fur ball in progress'. If stations would be less effected - then so would cap ships so what's the advantages you're asking for? I can see that multiple bursts shouldn't stack if someone can afford to spam fire 8 of them - if the electronics is hard enough to handle a single burst it should equally handle a second burst ... and a third and so on - so what is the point of spamming?

The only regenerating multi launch system available is the Excalibur and in reality it's the regen that's the important part of the system; it's been tweaked for EL but it's still the 'buy once use forever' aspect that makes it a keeper in EM or EL for players who concentrate on trade and exploration.

As for stealthing, I don't see it as a weapon at all - it makes you 'invisible' for a fixed, short period of time. I agree that it should get disabled upon detonation if the equivalent of an emp weapon blast occurs. I also agree that anything (I'd even add 'everything') "techy" shouldn't be able to work. I don't agree that this should exclude 'stations and bases which may have literal grounding and Faraday caged computers'. If you can create a system that can shield a computer you can fit it to a ship. If you can shield a computer from an emp blast you can shield a stealth generator. Either it's anything tech not it isn't.

I'm also not convinced by the argument that making tech available but controlling it via it's great cost justifies having it in the first place. All you seem to be doing is putting the super weapons in the hands of the rich - it's happening now (though the super rich are nations) and I don't expect it will change in the near future but Vice has the chance of bypassing the ethical/moral argument by banning the technology in the EL universe!:D

I'd still go back to the questions: Can you destroy stations now? Can you destroy capital ships now? If you can, why would you want to make it easier? Capital ships and stations are humungous, home to hundreds of thousands (or a few thousand crew). Stations and cap ships are the result of design evolution over several centuries of bitter conflict including two Vonari attacks on the Earth. A 50 m ship with a couple of beams and a couple of cannon and 8 missiles vs 2000m of battlecruiser?? I know which I'd expect to win.

The present disruption missiles have a role - little ship vs little ship. In my experience (on the receiving end) they fulfill that role more than well enough.

[matchbox2022]

nerf means essentially useless

And Im not going for a super weapon, fur ball in progress...what if there were 8 NPCs tailing you? A reasonable thing to have happen, or you want to take out a capital ships shields and escorts, at least dazzle them for a bit to distract them, this weapon is perfect for that, and against humans the sound effect alone has confused players...though with little effect than...oh....guess I can't jump now after that HUGE EXPLOSION.

As for cloak, I've used it in battle many times and it can be extremely effective. Sorry trade secrets as to how, but that effect being able to be nullified, or a cloaked ship forced to decloak would be a very useful feature (just like when they use their afterburner, except this weapon would force it, imagine running to a station under attack to find no one around? save the guy cloaked and waiting for you to leave. And excellent check and balance weapon then).

As far as "physics" goes..my reasons for it not affecting stations had nothing to do with true physics,, I only stated stations wouldn't be effected as much if at all for purely gameplay reasons, not as much "oh but that wouldn't make sense in real life" ones. Players already have issues with other people taking out their stations offline...so I'd hate to give trolls another tool to use...that's not the idea.

It would still have all the effects including shield drain against capital ships, NPCs, and human players, which since it doesn't effect people stations and their hard work...no one would object to, and in fact would make some of the harder missions more doable in single player.


It is true, I just think yes a compromise needs to be found between your opinion and mine, which many people will likely have similar views on both our sides, I proposed a feel Ive outlined regarding them not to simply become end the mission / station weapons,...as in more than likely not inflicting damage. but obviously it's up to vice and the community of players' input.
At the VERY least, I think they need to do a teeny bit more than they do, with at least one of the points listed, and have the animation changed to suit that they aren't space nukes after all more electric wide area effect weapons (as it does now, but in an explosion fashion, when no actual damage is done at all to anything).

[DaveK]

The great thing about the forum is that we can have some serious but friendly discussions, everyone interested can join in and at the end Vice will distill down the overall view and act on it or not according to his vision of the game. It will be interesting to see if anyone comments.

[SeeJay]

It's been a long time since I was hit by a Leech, so I can't remember exactly what it did to my ship.

With that said, here's my thoughts:
- NO damage should be added to it. It's a EMP weapon!
- Maybe an increase in the EMP effect. (Not sure tho due to my first sentence)
- The change of explosion effect with a "lightning" explosion rather than the one we have now sounds cool.
- Everything in the explosion range should be affected, I thin it is tho.

[Vice]

With all of the sensitivities to modules getting destroyed (now apparently largely remedied by changes to their defensive capabilities), would those interested in disruptor changes really want to backtrack module vulnerability by knocking out module shields with these weapons? Or should disruptors only knock out ship shields, leaving modules able to defend against such a weapon?

As for damage, seems to be the general consensus to not have them inflict damage. So it would focus on an EMP effect (knocking out the HUD), dropping shields, and disabling the jump drive.

[Marvin]

This gets complicated. Cities have an entire planet they could use for grounding out EMP. Stations might have the power to increase shield strength above the EMP level. Ships, on the other hand (even capital ships) shouldn't have the power reserves to defeat EMP. Maybe Dave can address the possibility that EMP wouldn't also create a destructive blast wave.

[Misunderstood Wookie]

Are you stating that the leech would have an AOE? I am not so keen on the shields thing inc capitals.
However any shields should reduce to yellow and disable jump capability the rest of the ideas seem good.

If we were make these changes I would prefer a largely larger delay before firing the EMP so we don't have EMP spam.

[matchbox2022]

I'm afraid of spams as well, kinda where I was going with, even if someone fires two, the effects won't "stack", it'd be a waste until they wait until the effect has totally warn off aka. after the 3 min jump drive offline time. Besides, then people have more than 7 seconds (takes that long for the thing to fire due to delay and go anywhere) to jump out.

This is more useful for singleplayer against capital ships.

I would personally love to see it as effect stations, bases, everything...with shields down to red and need to wait to recharge them.

HOWEVER. THAT's just me.

Looking at what people have been saying a lot lately about stations, I really didn't want to start going down the road of a station troll tool.

I know it doesn't "quite" make sense....but if they effect station "shields" at all, maybe it should be pretty tame. Or just not at all for stations / bases so the majority of players can be content.

[Vice]

The same 10 second arming delay would likely still apply, so players wouldn't be able to fire off a bunch from one ship. Likewise, the effects would not stack and the firing player will continue to be subject to the weapon as well, if in range. So the existing mechanisms to reduce repeated effectiveness and spaced sequencing will remain.

[Vice]

I have set up a new disruptor system and am prototyping the changes. Here are the specs so far (all effects applied to ships):

- EMP effect applied at detonation, roughly half the duration of a Leech EMP (to allow enabling of weapons and HUD a little sooner while shields are still somewhat depleted).
- Shield arrays knocked out completely.
- Jump drive disabled.

If you'd like to try out the system (including using it on yourself in range so you can gauge the effects first hand), simply send me a quick e-mail and I'll provide the download link once it's ready.

[Radikal]

- EMP effect applied at detonation, roughly half the duration of a Leech EMP (to allow enabling of weapons and HUD a little sooner while shields are still somewhat depleted).
- Shield arrays knocked out completely.
- Jump drive disabled.

Does this also knock out stealth?
Disruptor mines still key to hostiles only for detonation?

At the price point I would have expected a longer duration for the Leech-effect.

I do like the direction this is going.

[matchbox2022]

Yes a longer leech effect. Jump drives forbidden.A shield drain. And cloak knocked offline and even prevented while in its range.
But no damage. So a true emp area effect explosion weapon.

I think its on the right track. I've advertised this poll on the steam forums so hoping more ppl vote. Personally would like seeing 20-30 so we had a good sample of opinion. 12 is ....okay....

[Vice]

Does this also knock out stealth?

No, not currently, keeping stealth effective against such a measure.

Disruptor mines still key to hostiles only for detonation?

Yes, no change to detonation dependencies.

At the price point I would have expected a longer duration for the Leech-effect.

The longer the EMP effect, the less time you will have to use weapons against a target who has their shields knocked out and the longer you give the target to recharge those shields. So that's something to consider if you're looking for a longer EMP effect.

[Iron man]

How about the weapon can still firing but the mdts off?
Considerating your ship is in real danger with no shield and no hud appearing the player could still use by sight to fire on the enemy target?

Im seing already a mass bomb area of these new things in pvp wihout any contact anymore. Do I'm the only one?

[Marvin]

How about the weapon can still firing but the mdts off?

You wouldn't have the energy. You'd need a different kind of weapon ... totally mechanical. Something like a machine gun. But if you had one, you'd probably overtake the bullets.

[matchbox2022]

How about the weapon can still firing but the mdts off?
Considerating your ship is in real danger with no shield and no hud appearing the player could still use by sight to fire on the enemy target?

Im seing already a mass bomb area of these new things in pvp wihout any contact anymore. Do I'm the only one?

IF the emp totally disables your weapons,
then yeah I'd probably second that, just any "target locks" with missiles and mdts should NOT be working until nav comes back online.
Hell the targeting computer completely offline but still having weapons would be interesting....would have to rely completely on your eyes for a minute or however long the emp effect will be for.
Otherwise it'll just be...a bunch of ships sitting around, save the ones that got away and will be coming back....

[Edited on 3-2-2016 by matchbox2022]

[Iron man]

Otherwise it'll just be...a bunch of ships sitting around, save the ones that got away and will be coming back....

[Edited on 3-2-2016 by matchbox2022]

Indeed

[matchbox2022]

Otherwise it'll just be...a bunch of ships sitting around, save the ones that got away and will be coming back....

[Edited on 3-2-2016 by matchbox2022]

Indeed

Changed original post to reflect that, it's a pretty big deal.
Good thinking.

[Marvin]

Please put the change(s) in red or aqua or some other differentiating color so we can see where you made the change(s).

[SamKillitson]

If you're going to go all out with EMP you might consider adding a module or frame component that works as a Faraday cage. Problem solved, now go dogfight.