3rd independant faction

Oblivion Wolf · Post by **Oblivion Wolf** » Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:27 pm

This is just something I am putting out there to see what the interest would be in playing as a 3rd independent faction.

Firstly I know that Vice is just one man who has more important things to get to right now, but if there was enough interest maybe it's something he could look into implementing eventually.

Secondly, I know there was a big demand in the community for Red on Blue conflict which I personally think is a good design choice for Legacy, not that my opinion affects the outcomes of Vice's decisions.

Myself and a number of pilots I have flown with wouldn't mind staying neutral in the conflict. Perhaps it's my HB genes but I prefer helping new people out as well as intermediate pilots who are unsure of what to do. I've also refueled a number of stranded pilots as I am sure a number of you have, all the while indifferent to whether your tag says ALC or FDN. It could even be integrated as an endgame objective, once you reach Legend or Fleet Admiral you have the option of switching to independent. It also opens up a door for players with a more mercenary bent who wish to hire themselves out to either side for PvP engagements. It also allows players who enjoy building up the infrastructure to assist other players in non combat areas. A good example of this is way stations on long distance journeys. Independently built stations also allow for trading infrastructure in key systems without affecting the balance of power in said systems.

What you all think?

Oblivion Wolf,
Fly Casual.

[Edited on 2-20-2016 by Oblivion Wolf]

[Edited on 2-20-2016 by Oblivion Wolf]

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:54 pm

A 3rd faction would still have the same building and territory capturing abilities as the first 2 factions. Therefore, it would become another combative party by default and cause the charted human systems to be divided 3 ways instead of 2 at a fresh SP game/server launch. The amount of gate-connected space a player would have to travel safely in would be reduced even further.

One of the trade-offs that would have to be implemented for a 3rd faction to be truly neutral is to remove station building and territory capturing abilities.
IMO it's just not worth it.

matchbox2022 · Post by **matchbox2022** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:54 am

Isn't that the IMG?
But having a neutral tag would be nice for NPCs....the red need to be a pretty hefty penalty to not being part of the larger group...able to roam free..lack of military frames potentially...or faction only bases.
If there were more humans u could just put the tag in ur name and wed all know that clan is neutral

Radikal · Post by **Radikal** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:03 am

I've felt that only having 2 sides contributed to the death of Black Prophesy.

There are always those that want to work both sides of a conflict for their own gain, and some that want to band together and operate completely outside the main conflict.

I really like SW3DG as a development entity and will continue to support Vice's efforts.

Post by **Marvin** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:15 am

As IMG, you'd need to stay independent ... else it would get really complicated. Admittedly, it's a nice idea to be able to build neutral stations where anyone could dock. For a price.

Radikal · Post by **Radikal** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:10 pm

From post: 185724, Topic: tid=12468, author=Marvin wrote:As IMG, you'd need to stay independent ... else it would get really complicated. Admittedly, it's a nice idea to be able to build neutral stations where anyone could dock. For a price.

As IMG your actions would have zero effect on ALC/FDN faction conflict.

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:55 pm

From post: 185747, Topic: tid=12468, author=Radikal wrote:
From post: 185724, Topic: tid=12468, author=Marvin wrote:As IMG, you'd need to stay independent ... else it would get really complicated. Admittedly, it's a nice idea to be able to build neutral stations where anyone could dock. For a price.
As IMG your actions would have zero effect on ALC/FDN faction conflict.

If both of these quoted statements would become true, then it's a game breaker.

IMG could go to a warring faction's system and spam stations everywhere effectively putting a temporary blockade on building in the local system.

If IMG had no influencing ability and retaliated for it's stations being attacked, then it's become a puppet to whichever faction it believes didn't do it.

IMG is the Intergalactic Mercenaries' Guild - a sort of worker's union. I've never heard of a union that didn't require -or even crave - influence in order to operate. If it stays as an NPC entity, then that 'power' doesn't need to be represented on the map. Add players to it, and like I said before, it becomes another combatant by default.

Green + Red = Brown

Oblivion Wolf · Post by **Oblivion Wolf** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:55 pm

I'm am really not trying to add another side to the game, I was just curious as to wether it would be possible to be independent, I know a lot of explorers and traders would probably go for this.

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:11 pm

From post: 185755, Topic: tid=12468, author=Oblivion Wolf wrote:I'm am really not trying to add another side to the game, I was just curious as to wether it would be possible to be independent, I know a lot of explorers and traders would probably go for this.

It would be possible, but the ability to build stations and capture territory would have to be removed and (possibly) the ability to dock at any pre-existing ALC or FDN station added.

At the very least, not being able to build would bust the deal for explorers.
I don't think (IMO) that feature-removal in this respect is good for balance either.

Post by **Marvin** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:46 pm

I agree about the building. But IMG pilots could still deploy without disturbing the Force ... as long as they could dock at any station (after paying a stiff docking fee).

Oblivion Wolf · Post by **Oblivion Wolf** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:50 am

What about building a "docking bay" a self sufficient stand alone module simular to a command, only allowing servicing and commodities, but no contracts?

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:49 am

From post: 185783, Topic: tid=12468, author=Oblivion Wolf wrote:What about building a "docking bay" a self sufficient stand alone module simular to a command, only allowing servicing and commodities, but no contracts?

Seems to me that would require a good bit of development work to produce a reduction in features for some players... Doesn't sound like a logical use of time to me.

(Please believe me, I'm not trying to flatten people's tires here.

)

Oblivion Wolf · Post by **Oblivion Wolf** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:30 am

Yeah no worries RC, I'm just throwing ideas out to see if any of it sticks, last thing I want to do is add to Vice's work load.

Radikal · Post by **Radikal** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:55 pm

Stations built by IMG players could easily belong to the faction that has highest % in that area when built, which is how planet cities are determined as far as I've seen (closest space station determines planet city alliance). So this wouldn't really change the game dynamic, it would be adding to how IMG is already treated in the game.

This thread is basically just asking for an extension (both as NPCs in SP and player options for MP) of the current IMG presence.

Still, it's always good to have discussions.

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:10 pm

From post: 185809, Topic: tid=12468, author=Radikal wrote:Stations built by IMG players could easily belong to the faction that has highest % in that area when built, which is how planet cities are determined as far as I've seen (closest space station determines planet city alliance). So this wouldn't really change the game dynamic, it would be adding to how IMG is already treated in the game.

This thread is basically just asking for an extension (both as NPCs in SP and player options for MP) of the current IMG presence.

Still, it's always good to have discussions.

From what I've noticed, game-default cities only 'flip' to IMG if no station is present in the sector. It seems to me that if IMG-built stations were added, they would probably need to be set to instantly 'flip' to whichever faction owns the system. In that case ALL stations would most likely also need to be coded as 'flip-able'.

How would IMG know which stations were built by them then?

Radikal · Post by **Radikal** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:27 pm

From post: 185811, Topic: tid=12468, author=Rubber Chicken wrote: From what I've noticed, game-default cities only 'flip' to IMG if no station is present in the sector. It seems to me that if IMG-built stations were added, they would probably need to be set to instantly 'flip' to whichever faction owns the system. In that case ALL stations would most likely also need to be coded as 'flip-able'.

How would IMG know which stations were built by them then?

IMG-built station would belong to controlling faction when built, it would be set at that faction and not be "flip-able".
In this way IMG-built stations would not interfere with current game faction settings.

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:54 pm

From post: 185812, Topic: tid=12468, author=Radikal wrote:
IMG-built station would belong to controlling faction when built, it would be set at that faction and not be "flip-able".
In this way IMG-built stations would not interfere with current game faction settings.

So... How would IMG pilots 'know' which stations were built by IMG, and how would they have access to these stations if they defaulted to whichever warring faction currently had control?

Since IMG could not remain neutral if they built their own permanent stations and could capture territory, it kind of brings us back to IMG would be better off having no ability to build permanent stations, just the deployable type, but be able to dock at any station for a fee.

Post by **DaveK** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:03 pm

I've seen IMG cities in several faction controlled systems

Radikal · Post by **Radikal** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:05 pm

From post: 185813, Topic: tid=12468, author=Rubber Chicken wrote: So... How would IMG pilots 'know' which stations were built by IMG, and how would they have access to these stations if they defaulted to whichever warring faction currently had control?

Since IMG could not remain neutral if they built their own permanent stations and could capture territory, it kind of brings us back to IMG would be better off having no ability to build permanent stations, just the deployable type, but be able to dock at any station for a fee.

1) Um, the point was that IMG would have access to all stations regardless of affiliation.

2) IMG-built stations done as I suggested can not capture territory since they belong to current controlling faction, not sure what you are talking about.

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:15 pm

OK, so... I missed the part where you originally stated your agreement that (hypothetically) IMG should be able to access all stations.

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:16 pm

From post: 185814, Topic: tid=12468, author=DaveK wrote:I've seen IMG cities in several faction controlled systems

But have you seen any in a sector that has both cities and an orbiting station present?

Oblivion Wolf · Post by **Oblivion Wolf** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:18 pm

For this to work the 3rd party would have to be completely neutral. Unfortunately the best option is the one that takes too much work (in my mind I'm seeing the old constructor station, or something that has only 3 entrances to make it more distinctive on the Nav and something that is completely self sufficient, ie no modules, but to add balance it would be more limited) . I still think it would be better as an end game goal, ie something to work towards. The problem is how to keep it totally neutral, other wise it just becomes another opposing force, and then we have clan wars again.

The last thing I want to do is give Vice more work, he's busy enough as it is.

[Edited on 2-22-2016 by Oblivion Wolf]

Radikal · Post by **Radikal** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:28 pm

From post: 185820, Topic: tid=12468, author=Oblivion Wolf wrote:For this to work the 3rd party would have to be completely neutral. Unfortunately the best option is the one that takes too much work (in my mind I'm seeing the old constructor station, or something that has only 3 entrances to make it more distinctive on the Nav and something that is completely self sufficient, ie no modules, but to add balance it would be more limited) . I still think it would be better as an end game goal, ie something to work towards. The problem is how to keep it totally neutral, other wise it just becomes another opposing force, and then we have clan wars again.

Easiest way to maintain total neutrality as far as stations go is to have IMG able to use any station in return that any IMG-built station is controlled by the ruling faction when it's made. In this way IMG can make an impact on trade goods without impacting faction alliances.

Contracts undertaken by IMG would be the trickiest part of the plan, and I'm shocked no one else has brought out that grenade yet.... :/

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:09 pm

I've been thinking about this.

Instead of (as Radikal suggested) IMG-built stations defaulting to the sector owner, perhaps IMG pilots should be allowed to choose the ALC/FDN affiliation of the station at the time of construction.
For single player games only, an IMG pilot could actually build IMG stations and flip systems to IMG - or be strictly a MP-only selectable faction.

If IMG was able to dock at any station for a fee (preferably hefty), then IMG would be able to take contracts offered by the faction owner and the appropriate control % would be assigned to said factional owner.

IMG would be acting as the 'spoiler' in that situation. Then they could make their money playing both sides of the conflict as originally suggested. Since IMG would have that reputation as war-profiteers, there would be a rather hefty docking fee as both ALC and FDN would take a rather dim view of their self-interested activities. Sometimes trading and contract completion regardless of building a good track record would be an unprofitable situation.

IMG's only guaranteed trading and contracting places would be at cities specifically designated as IMG. However, combat contracts would not be available there, and civilian contracts would not register a control % influence.
This would also inspire IMG to occasionally 'set a city free' by destroying the station orbiting the planet.

IMG would still be an independent faction, but would still have to participate to some level as an influencing factor. They would still have to flip the coin in regards to how they are received by ALC/FDN pilots and stations. Regarding stations: Enter the dock and pay the fee to access the commodities menu or leave within an allotted time to avoid a direct-pulse attack that will instantly destroy your ship. It's at the station's random discretion to activate the turrets and attack you upon approach. You'd be allowed a short time to leave, after paying the fee, without being fired upon.

Seriously, if a third faction is to be implemented, there is absolutely zero logical way I can think of for it to be completely neutral. If somebody else sees something I am not, please point it out.

[Edited on 2-22-2016 by Rubber Chicken]

[Edited on 2-22-2016 by Rubber Chicken]

Post by **DaveK** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:44 pm

I'd like to offer a different viewpoint to start from.

If you read Vice's history of the last 500 years then there are aspects of the more recent parts of that history embedded in the programme waiting to be discovered. They will explain why the present state of the Evoverse is as it is.

The centuries long civil war between the Federation and the Alliance has been so bitter and destructive (being virtually genocidal at times) that it isn't very likely that either faction would allow a truly neutral group to develop and survive as a third faction. The best you might hope for is that some individual pilots might choose to opt out of the war. Sort of 'Quakers in Space'

But it's even more likely that such a group wouldn't be allowed to take over Federation or Alliance territory and since all the gated systems at least belong to one or the other I don't see that neutral systems could exist ... with the possible exception of one central system that is not only 'allowed' to be neutral but which has its neutrality enshrined in the faction's real politik needs. A sort of unacknowledged neutral ground where the two sides can unofficially discuss and negotiate. I would suggest that Sapphire (as the biggest and most 'developed' in terms of player activities) would be the logical choice - newbies could learn and experiment there and indie mercs could build their neutral stations there. There might even be a federation and an alliance embassy there

I can't practically see either faction allowing neutral planets or stations in their territories - too easy for them to be used bases for terrorists=freedom fighter groups to launch attacks from.