Remove ~ enemy sector position - Stop the Madness!

[Marvin]

Currently, there's really no point, because your pursuer can simple look at the console and see where you've run to. They can tell the direction you're going and most likely figure out where you're heading...towards a gate, towards your base, etc.

How can you look at the console to determine another player's jump point? Besides, a player attempting E and E shouldn't be heading for any obvious location.

[Vice]

I don't think it should be removed entirely, but I believe it should be tweaked. I can't really think of another space game where your location is displayed for all to see, especially enemies.

Correct, this game's approach is one of the unique things it offers. The lack of location information can be an inhibitor to player interaction, rather than a benefit. I'll explain a little more about that below from discussions we've had in the past about it.

This game doesn't give away your precise location, only the sector location, which is a huge section of space (10X greater in the new game). The long standing popular request I've received is to provide that general location information so it's at least feasible to find another player in another system. It's actually one of the things that distinguishes this game from others. Yes, in others that don't provide such basic location information, finding another player (even if a friend) can be quite difficult, resulting in a lot of players just going around doing things on their own... in multiplayer. This game is designed to encourage player encounters and interactions and the sector location element is part of that equation. It provides enough information to at least know which sector a player is in, but not so much that their precise location is given away. So if they want to hide, there's still plenty of space to do it in. And there are gameplay options to take the hiding objective even further (stealth devices and generators).

In summary, players have wanted to encounter, trade, hunt, and PvP with others online. And engaging each other, their stations, their territory, their planets/cities, and their economies is all part of the larger objective of bringing players in together rather than sharding them out or hiding them from each other.

Now tuning and tweaking the build/destroy process for the station part of the equation is underway. While possible to pin down and find such structures, it's good to work toward making sure the destroy/build exchange is reasonably balanced. Hopefully, the next update will help in that direction.

[Rubber Chicken]

Even with the current player position 'broadcast' system in place, I can guarantee that if a skilled player does not want to be found, they won't be.

I recall a few times - in EM - that I was able to set a station detonator then go to cloak, and sit comfortably as I watched the defending players spray-and-pray at the station hoping to hit my stealthed ship. I wasn't seen, and the station wasn't either a few minutes later.

Also even if you and an opposing player are the only 'entities' in the same sector, the sensor station is certainly not the be-all, end-all of detection. There are still many ways to keep pursuers at arms length - so to speak.

I do agree that station building being advertised in chat should be removed. I'm unsure how stations sending "We're being attacked by a player" messages would be handled, but they might be good to have. Perhaps such a message would only go to players that were within reasonable travel time away from the distressed station- say, ~50 sectors. The caveat would be that if the station breaks radio silence, it takes the chance that it may reach defenders in time, or it may only be broadcasting to more local hostile players.

[starschulz]

Well if someone brought a station detonator to your home station and cloaked, it probably wouldn't have been very fun being able to do nothing to defend it

This was brought up because a few pilots on the Darkstar server wanted to find a 100 tech area to build in, secluded from the tech swings of the mapped area. It was in there best efforts to keep it a secret from any who posed a threat to it, but because anyone can use the ` key to find locations, it wasn't long at all before people began to show up without being told something was there. Currently keeping something like that a secret would require you to log off when anyone of question logs on.

I don't know if a server option to change it from all factions to allied faction or to turn it off would be the right decision, however. Suddenly there is no way to actually find an enemy player, or an enemy base. I liked the idea of the heat map, but that sounds like something more of a long term. you would not be able to chase down an enemy that is running around in your system unless the heat map updated incredibly fast, and that would defeat the purpose of not being able to see an enemy base.

[Rubber Chicken]

There were definitely ways to defend those (EM) station attacks. The issue really was that nobody I was attacking knew how I was doing it.

I agree that with the current system, it is very possible to 'shadow' an explorer who wishes to not have their newly discovered system found, or a builder who doesn't want their station attacked almost as soon as they build it.

In EM there was a big issue with 'spies'. Players (myself included) would log in under alias newbie tags and watch what the opposing faction was up to.
I personally have come to realize that 'advanced recon' should be a bit more nuanced/complex than that.

Like Vice said, it's a matter of implementation and balance. Making players - even uninvited ones - unable to find each other is not really a good thing. Conversely, being able to remotely zero-in on an opponent's activity and plan attacks from there isn't so good as well.

I really don't know what the best way to change it would be, but I do welcome a change.

One idea I do have, is that on occasion, requesting information from an AI in multiplayer could yield information about opposing player-built station locations. ie: "You didn't hear this from me but... There's an opposing faction (player-built station) in the vicinity of SX.SY.SZ. ." The location(s) would generally be accurate to roughly +/- 20 to 30 sectors from the actual location so you would still have to search for them.

[Edited on 2-12-2016 by Rubber Chicken]

[Radikal]

It used to be that you used a torpedo to defend against station detonators. Torps did no damage to the station and the cloaked enemy went "poof".

[Bodega]

RC: I actually just had an idea while playing on Darkstar. I said, how's everyone doing, and one player was like "just exploring". I checked my quadrant map and he's an ALC player, deep in Sierra space.

How about, going along with the whole system notification when a station gets attacked an notice goes out within 500 sectors, but also the current system works if players are in known systems. Like, they're being sighted by NPC navy ships, stations and whatnot, even if you're peaceful you're location is being logged and transmitted. If you go off the grid, outside the region of the default stations that you're location is obscured. I mean if I'm out 2000 sectors in the middle of nowhere, how will people know where I am?

This kinda needs to be discussed further for the whole, what defines a station, because once you build a station would Vice be able to keep that separate from the known stations? Maybe we keep in charted space. That way friends, commerce, and people wanting to fight can, and people who want to hid, literally go off the grid.

Seems it maybe easy to implement.

[starschulz]

I like the idea of NPCs giving you positions!

One thought i just had [ i might have read something similar recently ] but if each player had the ability to toggle it individually like a transponder, would that be a bad idea? if you were looking for some PVP you could leave it on and go looking, and if you wanted to stay silent you could turn it off. I feel that it should cost you something if you turn it off, however. maybe allied NPCs don't know you are friendly, and they refuse to talk to you? you can dock, but they won't let you accept contracts. [ completing a contract broadcasts your position anyway ]

[Edited on 2-12-2016 by starschulz]

[Vice]

It'd be worth some functionality analysis as well. I have been planning on adding the ability to screen sector locations in one of 3 ways (selectable by the server operator):

0 = Default, no screening, sectors are display in player list.
1 = Sectors are hidden from player list, only allied ships can see each other on the nav map.
2 = Sectors are hidden from player list and no ships are marked on the nav map

This will be in conjunction with global text alerts when a station is under attack along with the various changes to module dependency and command module armor increases. We can see how these types of changes work out. If enough players don't like them (or just don't use them), they can be left alone or removed as the need may arise. If popular and well used, they can be kept or expanded on. But this way, the group of players interested in this type of unlisted sector format can go ahead and test it out on a server they set up and see what they think of it.

[Radikal]

Player locations shown when player is in sight of NPCs or stations? Might have some merit there, not sure how much work that would take codewise.
I am kind of leaning toward location given at only system level, that is roughly a 500x500 sector square and very big. With system being shown you can still be hunted down, but will take more effort (and be a bit more rewarding gameplay I think).

[MiaZ]

I think once people can no longer do suicide exodus attacks on stations then there won't be such a big reason to be so secret about locations.

[starschulz]

I feel that keeping a 100 tech station a secret from the enemy would still be an important thing, as some would feel the need to destroy the tech level of the area. [ however you do that ]


one other concern is that we can see the enemy coming due to the distance, and can call people to defend the base on a moments notice.

[Rubber Chicken]

It used to be that you used a torpedo to defend against station detonators. Torps did no damage to the station and the cloaked enemy went "poof".

Lol, Torps would probably have worked, but nobody was willing to be without Excaliburs.

@ Bodega.

I could see how in areas with a strong station-to-station/high traffic comms network, relatively fast warnings reaching more sectors could happen, while out in the boonies learning of an attack could possibly go unnoticed.

That's kind of why I suggested the 'players must be within a certain sector distance to receive warnings' idea.

After all, if a modern-day transmission is sent from Earth to Mars, the delay is pretty considerable.
If, hypothetically, there was a station on Pluto, and we did have near-light speed capable spacecraft, and Pluto Station was attacked, by the time the message was received and responded to, Pluto Station could well be history.
If we had near-light travel, and the attack was on the Moon, then receipt of the message and response time would be much different.

At the same time, I do think that 'general transmission' distress calls when a station is under attack should be the way to go.
If there are defenders within the area that have a chance to save the station, then good. But, if there are only hostiles in range and the call only succeeds in getting the vultures a-circling, then such is the reality of living in space.

I suppose it could be argued that a station's super computer should really be able to encrypt faction-only messages almost instantaneously, but if an attack is going down, the likelihood of local comms traffic and news reports echoing through the relevant sectors would probably outweigh the station trying to keep it's communiques secret anyway.

Regardless of any of that, if changes add to the fun, then more power! If they detract from the fun, then let's not.

I'm certainly not an answer man, nor do I have any requests or expectations. Like most of us, I'm just trying to help brainstorm until a truly good solution comes up.


[Edited on 2-12-2016 by Rubber Chicken]

[Bodega]

And someone just laid waste to almost all FDN stations on Darkstar lol, wow. Can't wait for some of these changes. I expect maybe some tweaking/balance issues but should be good. And knowing Vice, he may have just gotten it right the first time.

As for the sector hiding, I appreciate it Vice. I think with the contract notices and station notifications that may give it enough balance. We'll see and if people enjoy playing on a server with it hidden, or just hidden in the ~ console but on in the navmap it may be perfect. Friendlies can see eachother, but not exact locations, and if they're moving it may give spies a tougher time to zero in. That way if people are being peaceful they can stay hidden, as soon as they start attacking stations a notice goes out. That way maybe an enemy force can gather a large attack force under the guise of peace and attack all at once, and then the alarms go off and everyone comes to the aid of the people.



[Edited on 2-12-2016 by Bodega]

[Bodega]

@ RC: I think the game uses quantum entanglement for instant communications, but maybe there is a limit to the frequency used or power to distribute the signal?

[Rubber Chicken]

The only trouble I have with opponents' location being 'hidden' is that I know personally, I can 'flip' a system rather quickly by simply destroying opposing AI ships en mass.
I don't think that if I was, let's say... FDN, and went to ALC Pearl and got all homicidal on ALC NPCs in a sector right next door to an ALC player that had no idea I was there, or what was making their control drop, there wouldn't soon be a protest thread, and rightly so.

[Rubber Chicken]

@ RC: I think the game uses quantum entanglement for instant communications, but maybe there is a limit to the frequency used or power to distribute the signal?

I was also thinking along the lines of the jump gates in the charted systems also doubling as comms relays.

I admit, I'll have to read up on q.e. if it's going to be the mode of operation for comms traffic before I could really talk about what power>distance>signal quality parameters could play into the system.

[MiaZ]

I feel that keeping a 100 tech station a secret from the enemy would still be an important thing, as some would feel the need to destroy the tech level of the area. [ however you do that ]


one other concern is that we can see the enemy coming due to the distance, and can call people to defend the base on a moments notice.

I don't think you can negatively change the tech level down if it was already high when you first found it without stations.

Yes this other concern will be a problem, you will you want to know when there are players heading to your bases location.
If you don't know the enemy's movements it may be too late when you find out.

[Marvin]

How can you tell (using ~) the tech level of a star system? As for enemy pilots trekking 2000 sectors to destroy your newly colonized area of space ... if they're willing to take the time to wander around the boondocks, have at it. Just as long as they don't call on me if they run out of gas along the way.

[Bodega]

Can jump gate information be added to regional details? or is that not useful, not really efficient?
So far this:


If stations/gates can relay positions it could give rise to a strategy where an attacking force may have to take a "long way" to attack a system. This would require some support ships to help the fighters get there without using gates/stations. Someone would need to bring metal for hangars, repair and fuel. That way a sneak attack could work, rather than the enemy seeing you coming through gates. Stations still send out an attack beacon/distress call once attack is initiated.

That shouldn't require too much additional code, people could stay off the grid, whereas a heatmap might still give you away if you're off in uncharted space.

There would be a checkbox when building a station to enable/disable the relaying of information, so if I build a staging base, I may turn off the comms. Prefabs would all have this on by default as would gates. Unless it's deemed too powerful and attacking forces would have to sacrifice some stealth to build the station. And by that time it may be too late for the defense anyway, once you see a station pop up and suddenly there are 4 people with their coordinates being relayed.

Then you call in all available units and an epic firefight ensues...pew pew, blam, baffftttcurrchug. Explosion!! Fade to black...

[Marvin]

If stations/gates can relay positions it could give rise to a strategy where an attacking force may have to take a "long way" to attack a system.

If you're really not into having your stations attacked, you can build them in one of the very many star systems which are far from any jumpgate. Where the way into the system is always the "long way" ... longer than that trip from Sirius to the Sol system.

[CS-ACI-]

Hello,

And someone just laid waste to almost all FDN stations on Darkstar lol, wow. Can't wait for some of these changes. I expect maybe some tweaking/balance issues but should be good. And knowing Vice, he may have just gotten it right the first time.[Edited on 2-12-2016 by Bodega]

Some one also layed waste to the ALC stations before I got on, so I did some station building.

Although I have seen some complaints about those stations being too well defended, well it take more than a suicide run or two too kill them.

Steve

[Misunderstood Wookie]

Hmm the ability to switch back and forth does pose an issue. May I suggest a server variable which masks players positions for a operators set time frame this way if you join initially as ALC then a few days swap to FED you will nees to wait the operators time frame in real time before you'll be able to track anyone who doesn't give you trans pos directly or broadcasts globally. Of course this also applies if you switch back. It just acts as a decent buffer time frame between swapping sides. It's quite I for one would be content with the understanding thet if I side hop often I won't be able to list the factions player locations until some time has passed which by then gives time for movement meaning you'll always be having to predict ahead of time where you think someone is but you'll never know straight away so also gives time to move a base if discovered this way.

Don't get me wrong but swapping factions every few hours to track is going to happen if your allowed too.

alternatively apply the time server side for faction change this way it prevents faction jumpers almost completely.

Many mmo uses that technique to prevent a player going back and forth. Now there is an oversight.. If I have more than one player you can be on both.. Now that is why we kinda need two solutions. The faction timer and a player swap timer which if you swap frequently builds up a penalty of some sort.

Seems a pretty easy fix imo.

[Marvin]

Even easier is to disable the "swap" function entirely. Especially since, when you duplicate or clone a pilot profile, it carries with it the selected SP faction.

[Radikal]

(Wrong topic)

[Edited on 2-12-2016 by Radikal]