Remove ~ enemy sector position - Stop the Madness!

Bodega · Post by **Bodega** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:05 am

Hi all,
Sorry but I'm bringing this up again as itâ€™s getting into a lot of discussion in multiplayer, especially PvP, going back to the whole '~' showing sector thing. A couple people agreed that they think it should be changed, and I was like where were you when I posted it to the forums, because no one there wants it changed apparently. But itâ€™s too easy to know where bases are or if you see people in the middle of no where you know that theyâ€™re doing.

There is no good reason you should see exactly where the enemy is. Maybe friendlies, but I don't want friendlies knowing where I am either unless I transpos to faction chat.

I vote on a heat map for enemies, similar to what you said. If I was ALC, it would give a general cloud where FDN activity is. It could use the same type of code the clan territory bubbles used in EL. As you get closer, maybe the cloud gets smaller as you get better intel. But currenly ~ completely removes any need for Trans Pos or Ping really. Sectors arenâ€™t that large with a sensor array. Itâ€™s easy to know where your enemy base is because you hit ~ and see where they are sitting.

And yeah, people will switch to see where they are and switch back, but I donâ€™t think friendlies should be able to see where I am either. I might be discovering stuff that I want to keep secret. It could be a server option, so PvE servers can have regular ~ and PvP servers can have a masked ~.

Please if you agree speak up so we can discuss this. Stop the base bombing, poor innocent people die everyday to satisfy your bloodlust.

starschulz · Post by **starschulz** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:15 am

I liked the idea of the heat map you brought up that would show possible locations of enemies. something like that would need to be added, as if ` was changed like that you would almost never find an enemy player unless they told you where they were.

Bodega · Post by **Bodega** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:26 am

Sensor arrays cover 1/4th a sector and are cheap. You get 2 friends and go to a sector and could possibly find the base within an hour. I bring this up because I hope someone smarter than me has an idea that we can all agree on and is easily implemented. And it could also get finer the closer you get, so that if you get within say, 10 sectors of an enemy, it would show you which 2 sectors they're in, get within 2 sectors and it'll narrow down to the sector. Then you can go nuts with sensor arrays and play cat & mouse. I'm just saying the current system is way too easy and takes the fun out of searching for enemies.

Serayl · Post by **Serayl** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:41 am

Not everyone has two friends at their beck and call, who will obediently drop sensor towers everywhere you want 'em to.

I wouldn't mind having a special piece of equipment that helped with this, something specifically meant to help locate players or something. Not sure how it'd work though.

I also wouldn't mind having some system for 'pinging' players when hostiles are close at hand or when they pass by your faction's turf/stations/planets/what-have-you. Again, I'm unsure how to exactly implement that.

No matter what gets done, as long as it strikes a good balance between keeping hidden things hidden without making it impossible to find people/uncharted player-made stations/etc., I'll likely be fine with it.

Bodega · Post by **Bodega** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:00 am

Seryal, you're the only without friends ;P

I like the idea of some sort of near-field radar, the heat map helps you get close, then the radar can use radiation from the heat generated by the ships to give a direction, maybe your engineer can help, but the combat ships are 1 seaters. So maybe it adds a support role for another friend, oh wait...j/k I'm your friend, hit me up on Discord, I just suck at PvP.

I just think being able to see the sector immediately is too easy, there is no challenge in locating the base when you can look and see that the enemy (or your teammates if you're spying) are sitting in a sector all day and you pick up occasional chatter about the base they're building.

[Edited on 2-10-2016 by Bodega]

Post by **Marvin** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:01 am

Veterans don't hang around a base if an enemy is closing in. They either prepare for battle or prepare to E and E. Either way, a sensor station does the enemy no good ... if for no other reason than only one sensor can be deployed at a time. And that one station must be scuttled before another can be deployed. In such a game of cat-and-mouse, the mouse has the advantage.

Radikal · Post by **Radikal** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:13 am

Maybe replace exact sector with closest main system name.

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:37 am

I have no big problems with how it's set up now. I (as Marvin stated) have adapted and play by "the rules at hand".

If a change was to be made, this is my suggestions (some might have been posted above):
- Only show closet system (Star) name.
- Add an expensive device (Deep Space Probe [DPS]?) that can be launched towards a set navpoint many sectors away and it will stop there and scan the surrounding (20 sectors?). (The DPS can't be bought, has to be build with a blueprint?) The DPS could even have several classes for scan-range. (5/10/15/20/25)
- A button (toggle on/off) to display your sector coords to friendlies.
- A button to send coords to just one player even if he/she is far away. Like TransPos but directed to a specific player only)

This way I could see that a player is in Pearl, but not where.
I could start hunting him/her by going there and sending DPS in all directions in an expanding radius.

I have no idea how much work this would require for Vice to code tho. Might not be possible at all.

Bodega · Post by **Bodega** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:10 am

From post: 184941, Topic: tid=12417, author=Marvin wrote:Veterans don't hang around a base if an enemy is closing in. They either prepare for battle or prepare to E and E. Either way, a sensor station does the enemy no good ... if for no other reason than only one sensor can be deployed at a time. And that one station must be scuttled before another can be deployed. In such a game of cat-and-mouse, the mouse has the advantage.

Hi Marvin,
They don't have to sit around, if I see the enemy faction gathered in 1 system and they've been sitting there for a while I'll go check it out. If they flee they lose their base.

Currently the mouse has no advantage to hide. And if I'm building a base, usually it's built in a sector with an asteroid field, so the enemy always knows where they can attack me.
Currently as an enemy, you can't really sneak attack. If we're building a large complex structure and we are checking ~ everything couple of minutes, then we can see hostiles coming. This is a whole tactic that can't really pan out. It's easy to see if a large enemy force is heading your way and from which gate or sector they're coming from.

Ok, commercial and private jets have transpoders, we could incorporate a transponder into the game, and we could show everyone's coordinates, like the system is now, unless you upgrade to a mil frame which doesn't have the transponder or it's toggleable or purchase an expensive unit that takes up a eq slot and disables your transponder.

This way it is the way it is now, unless we are actively hiding, and if we want to hide what we're doing then only people with mil frames or disabled transponders can assist in building the secret base, or the sneak attack.

There are many ways this can be changed. I just know that I and a few others do not like the current system and think it robs us of valid PvP tactics, such as hunt/prey hiding, sneak attacks and going off the grid to look for stuff without anyone knowing.

As the system is now, sure you might be able to jump in a direction, 10 jumps. But I'll know the direction you're heading and once I find the base, it's over anyway. I found the base because I saw you sitting in these coordinates earlier, waited for you to log off, went to that sector and see the base.

@SeeJay I like that idea too, though don't know how much work it is.

Maybe add the hiding coordinates to the cloaking device?

[Edited on 2-10-2016 by Bodega]

Bodega · Post by **Bodega** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:42 pm

Maybe for Civ frames, it's the law that the transponder must be enabled so we have to pay good money to hack it or get a system to cloak it. Mil ships can have it as a toggle because military uses a FoF (friend or foe) system. Maybe hiding your coords by turning off your transponder or FoF system has the added effect that friendly missiles may target you?

Radikal · Post by **Radikal** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 2:24 pm

From post: 184954, Topic: tid=12417, author=Bodega wrote:Maybe for Civ frames, it's the law that the transponder must be enabled so we have to pay good money to hack it or get a system to cloak it. Mil ships can have it as a toggle because military uses a FoF (friend or foe) system. Maybe hiding your coords by turning off your transponder or FoF system has the added effect that friendly missiles may target you?

Looks like someone else has been watching The Expanse.

Bodega · Post by **Bodega** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 2:35 pm

From post: 184958, Topic: tid=12417, author=Radikal wrote:
From post: 184954, Topic: tid=12417, author=Bodega wrote:Maybe for Civ frames, it's the law that the transponder must be enabled so we have to pay good money to hack it or get a system to cloak it. Mil ships can have it as a toggle because military uses a FoF (friend or foe) system. Maybe hiding your coords by turning off your transponder or FoF system has the added effect that friendly missiles may target you?
Looks like someone else has been watching The Expanse.

Never heard of it? Should I start watching it? Is that on Syfy? Maybe I have heard of it, now that I think about it, I think I remember seeing an ad for it a while ago. I'll look it up and check i out.
I got the idea for the FoF from flight sims I play (BMS or DCS) and real life aviation.

Post by **Marvin** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:58 pm

The tilde isn't the only option you'd need to junk if your problem is with player position being displayed to everyone in the game. You'd also need to junk contract completion remarks in chat. Especially since veteran players can often tell if you're doing contracts in space or planetside contracts from a city. What amazes me is that neither the tilde nor contract announcements were ever a problem until now ... even with Rommy and Bad Aliens roaming around the galaxy.

Serayl · Post by **Serayl** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:05 pm

From my understanding, the trigger on this discussion was that people can (generally) see whether you're building a base in a secret location or not along with anything you may be exploring towards based upon the information provided through ~. These players feel that this information should not be available to the entire server, as in the former case you can't conceal any treehouses you choose to build, while the latter reveals the location of any exploration secrets you don't want made known.

The TL;DR version is: some folks desire a level of privacy from the all-seeing eye of ~.

In my case, I tend to interact with ~ in the following manner: if someone is holding in a sector that I know is far, far away from anything known, I'll make a mental note of it. Should they remain there for an extended period of time, I log it in Notepad and assume they're building a station at that location. If they're ALC and in a sector with an FDN station for example, I will move to investigate and determine whether they're passing through, performing a peaceful activity or engaging the station present. Only in the last case would I proceed to actively seek and engage them.

Exploring possible spoilers can be an issue too, as if you're in such a place, it's there for everyone to see with one key press.

[Edited on 2-10-2016 by Serayl]

matchbox2022 · Post by **matchbox2022** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:11 pm

This was already discussed. If you want to have MP have absolutely no point, then go ahead and remove the only method of finding enemy players.
Sectors are already VERY large, and any player being hunted should simply be able to warp to empty space in said sector at most twice when under attack / chased if they want a safe haven.
As far as in sector goes, unless you have sensor pods built then...No...there is no "all seeing eye" and finding an enemy Human is a LOT harder than you think.
This is most certainly not an exploit, and indeed gives multiplayer "a point" in the first place.
I've been engaged and done the engaging on MP, and I really believe that the balance is already there and can't really get much better without taking away from gameplay. If you don't want people finding you, play singleplayer.

Radikal · Post by **Radikal** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:44 pm

Instead of removing ~ operations, what about adding location cloaking to stealth devices or add new "transponder spoof"? If cloaking location is that big a deal to someone they can sacrifice an equipment slot for it.

Spoof would hide location from ~, but contract announcements and such would still apply.

[Edited on 2-10-2016 by Radikal]

Bodega · Post by **Bodega** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:53 pm

Matchbox: Thanks for your point, I appreciate it. I think it also needs to be tweaked because it's too easy to find bases.

Radikal: I'm all for that. I suggested something like that above, add this to cloaking and people can hide themselves. We can have spy ships, and it'll give rise to a new class of stealth, spy ships.

And I'm not asking for it to be removed from the game, but everything else is moddable, from the text, names of items, textures, sounds, fonts, meshes, so why can't it be a server option?

Radikal · Post by **Radikal** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:28 pm

From post: 185010, Topic: tid=12417, author=Bodega wrote: And I'm not asking for it to be removed from the game, but everything else is moddable, from the text, names of items, textures, sounds, fonts, meshes, so why can't it be a server option?

I really like the server option thing, great call.

Post by **Vice** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:34 pm

Another point to consider. If sector location masking is added, it won't likely involve changes to existing sensor and stealth options. So will likely remain as they are, so this would be a separate option, likely server side, on its own. The affect would be global while existing detection and cloaking mechanisms might be left in place. The exception to this might be allowing a server operator to escalate the masking level to include the nav map (0 = none, 1 = sector locations in player list, 2 = sector locations and allied indicators on nav map).

Bodega · Post by **Bodega** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:43 pm

Sounds good to me Vice. Would it also be possible to edit the contract completion text? Marvin brought up a good point that it is also displayed, but instead of mask that can it be limited to in-sector only? It doesn't really affect people outside the sector (or immediate vicinity anyway). Why does someone 1000 sectors away need to know which quests I'm doing?

matchbox2022 · Post by **matchbox2022** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:05 am

Sorry I'm on sporadically.
The quest thing yeah....it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

My major worry is I feel the system for finding players right now....is actually really good.
I can find my allies no problem, and enemies I can track to a sector but no further.

I'd think the only issue "mayyyy" be people who switch from one side to the other to track people.

Having those options controlled server side is probably a really really good idea. At least it would give people the option.
But then again...I think if you can't "Find" players...thats what SP is for.
Just my two cents,
PS. It doesn't bother me at all that an enemy "knows" where I am by sector when I'm cloaked, they still can't see you on sensors.
I can see this being an issue for players who are new and getting killed a lot by human players...it's a hard balance. I think it's got to be basically a server rule via admins or via sectors. Aka. if you're in disputed territory, you're gonna be able to be tracked "a bit" via sector.

But to be honest again. At least for this guy, I think the balance is there and it's perfect as is.

Radikal · Post by **Radikal** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:15 am

I've seen a lot of ideas, but really, I'm fine with the way things are. Let it be a server option, that way those that have an issue with seeing location info can have their way and the rest can be happy interacting with each other.

Bodega · Post by **Bodega** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:04 am

Thanks guys for the input. I appreciate everyone's views and respect your suggestions. I think it would take some more discussion to find that balance because ideally we'd have something in between what it is now and completely dark. I guess if it's completely dark you can still advertise your position, there are 2 buttons that allow you to do that already in the game, the trans pos button and the ping button. Both announce your position to friend and foe. I think having the power to turn off my transponder if I want and turn it back on if needed could lead to more interesting gameplay. Or going into the whole Civ ships have them on unless you get a cloaking device, and Mil ships have them toggle-able. That way those who want it on can keep it on for trade, or party purposes can and those who want privacy, for whatever reason - building a secret base, making meth in Rucker, can do so by buying a cloaking device.

That would take a lot of work, and I don't think at this time it would be prudent to just remove it as a server option because I don't know if the community can afford to split at this time. Maybe in the future we can revisit this topic, when Vice has more time to revisit this and maybe put out a few test builds. Currently I want Vice to focus on the base PvP optimizations that we're discussing in the other thread. I feel that's WAY more important thanthis topic. He's also dealing with a time consuming control issue for the X-55. So we can shelve this for a while, but don't worry, I don't forget, and I don't forgive...J/k love ya all!

[Edited on 2-11-2016 by Bodega] Proofreading is good for me.

[Edited on 2-11-2016 by Bodega]

Post by **DaveK** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:26 pm

From post: 184995, Topic: tid=12417, author=matchbox2022 wrote:This was already discussed. If you want to have MP have absolutely no point, then go ahead and remove the only method of finding enemy players.
Sectors are already VERY large, and any player being hunted should simply be able to warp to empty space in said sector at most twice when under attack / chased if they want a safe haven.
As far as in sector goes, unless you have sensor pods built then...No...there is no "all seeing eye" and finding an enemy Human is a LOT harder than you think.
This is most certainly not an exploit, and indeed gives multiplayer "a point" in the first place.
I've been engaged and done the engaging on MP, and I really believe that the balance is already there and can't really get much better without taking away from gameplay. If you don't want people finding you, play singleplayer.

I'm with matchbox on this one.

Bodega · Post by **Bodega** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:29 pm

Thanks DaveK for the response.

I don't think it should be removed entirely, but I believe it should be tweaked. I can't really think of another space game where your location is displayed for all to see, especially enemies. Usually there are radars, probes, scanners and items like that to find people, places and things. Do I think the coordinate display should be removed without some balancing factor? No. Do I think that we're simplifying gameplay and limiting a lot of PvP mechanics? Yes. The game is big, and I think we're robbing ourselves of a lot of additional strategy/tactics that could be a lot of fun. Really hunting people or escaping for long ranges, and looking for places to hide. Currently, there's really no point, because your pursuer can simple look at the console and see where you've run to. They can tell the direction you're going and most likely figure out where you're heading...towards a gate, towards your base, etc.

As for friendly, you can display your position. There is no reason you can't easily share your position with teammates using the mechanics already in the game.
As for foe, there have been many ideas mentioned on how to balance between outright showing my sector and providing hints towards where my location could be, and then using other methods or tools to narrow down where I am. Military ships could have advanced radar that tells you where people are. You want to know where I am, get a mil frame. You want to turn off your transponder, like I do, buy a mil frame or spend a eq slot and get a cloaking device. Otherwise the system can function exactly as it is now, with the ~ console showing the coordinate data the IMG, FDN and ALC use for civil purposes.

We're not asking for it to be turned off for everyone, but merely asking for the option for some of us to remove it.

Currently a lot of people do play singleplayer, maybe for this reason, may be not. I don't know. I know I play a lot more SP than MP for this reason. I don't want to invest a ton of resources into a base only to have a few enemies come through and destroy it when I'm offline, as happened to TOR and Darkstar servers. Then I lose all my items that were in the CMD module. If I knew I had a way to go 200 sectors off the grid and set up a little hideout, I'd be more apt to invest time/resources into MP.

And I don't want some half-assed solution, which is why I want people to continue to discuss and give feedback. I appreciate that I am the minority here, there are a few of us that think it should be changed, and if it stays the way it is, then we'll accept that. In an ideal world, Vice would have the time to put out a test build and we could see how it plays out. But I'm not trying to get some massive change forced on everyone, but rather a change for the people that want to utilize it.