Changes for crew handling!

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:50 am

After a small discussion with a Steam player and in Beta forum, on request I made this
thread to get more input from as many players as possible.

Situation:
Some players don't like that you loose your crew and have to train a new one when you
switch to a MIL frame an dthen go back to your CIV frame.

Please add/comment ideas in this thread. (Beta testers, please move your comments to this thread).

My thoughts:
- Since you don't store/save employees in RL, that is not an option in my book.
- Keep not used crew on a contract (keep paying them) so you can get them back without loosing their loyalty/training.
- Add the possibility that a crew member can get hurt/die when your ship is taking damage.
- Crew could still leave since in RL people quit their jobs and move on. Maybe you could negotiate to make them stay. (They don't just leave ship when you dock).
- When swapping to your MIL frame, your crew is still on a contract by default. (You need to fire them if you don't want to keep them on stdby).
- Crew members not used will gradually loose their training, like clan % drops when you're not online.

Bishop · Post by **Bishop** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:51 am

I just posted my thread about this, as well. Whose should we keep?

<-- Lou the Lou

[Edited on 7-4-2014 by Bishop]

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:54 am

From post: 171497, Topic: tid=11514, author=Bishop wrote:I just posted my thread about this, as well. Whose should we keep?

<-- Lou the Lou

[Edited on 7-4-2014 by Bishop]

LOL, I just saw that. Ooops!

Maybe a poll is not the way to go at this time. Storing crew is not an option in my book.
I think Vice wants as many thoughts as possible for different options before he consider any changes.

[Edited on 2014-7-4 by SeeJay]

Bishop · Post by **Bishop** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:58 am

You might be right about the poll, as having it as a regular post forces people to comment (though that may deter some people from responding, as well).

However, about the "it doesn't happen in real life" - sure it does. The most obvious is a military reserve, but it also happens in things like construction. A company will lay workers off, but only until there's more work, at which point they get called back. The workers are not paid during this time, but in Evo, I would think that crew would require a fee so as to not be tempted to simply crew for someone else.

I mean, if they were actual characters you could track down and rehire, it wouldn't be an issue, but they're not. They're numbers, and when they're gone, they're gone, as is their skill and loyalty, and all the time, money, and disloyal crew members you spent getting them maxed.

[Edited on 7-4-2014 by Bishop]

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:05 am

But workers you lay off in RL will not come back if they get another job during that time.

(Unless you pay them while their "off duty"!

Bishop · Post by **Bishop** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:07 am

That's what I'm saying. Keep them cycling and paid, just give me the ability to transfer them to a station without firing them so I can fly a military ship and not have to go through the whole process of refinding and "retraining" a crew for my civ ship.

If I were my character in the game, I would totally be willing to continue to pay my awesome crew to keep them around while I go tool around in my other ship for a while. Think about it. You wouldn't want to have to get to know a whole new crew; you'd make some kind of deal so that your loyal, skilled, familiar crew would be there when you got back. Since the only method of "dealing" with crew in Evo is through their wages, just keep them paid.

[Edited on 7-4-2014 by Bishop]

_-Caleb-_ · Post by **_-Caleb-_** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:08 am

Hola.

From post: 171495, Topic: tid=11514, author=SeeJay wrote: - Since you don't store/save employees in RL, that is not an option in my book.
- Keep not used crew on a contract (keep paying them) so you can get them back without loosing their loyalty/training.
- Add the possibility that a crew member can get hurt/die when your ship is taking damage.
- Crew could still leave since in RL people quit their jobs and move on. Maybe you could negotiate to make them stay. (They don't just leave ship when you dock).
- When swapping to your MIL frame, your crew is still on a contract by default. (You need to fire them if you don't want to keep them on stdby).
- Crew members not used will gradually loose their training, like clan % drops when you're not online.

Agree with all and some additions:

- The Crew members can be "transfered" to other player (with the trade console) for example. More loyalty and more habi = more expensive.

Then the crew can "train" in your ship and go to other ship.

Just this.

Regards.

Post by **DaveK** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:20 am

This is the compilation of my beta posts (for the pot!) It's redacted to protect the innocent

Would I be willing to continue to pay them a retainer to keep a crew available?

Having the option of paying a retainer sounds like an idea worth exploring. We already pay hangar fees for ships that aren't doing anything. It's easy to swap a frame in the shipyard but players pay for the convenience of not having to go where their new frame is available. Immersion-wise I get attached to my trusty ship. Ditto for a crew - they're people . . . my crew and I'd get attached to them.

It's been suggested that this doesn't happen in RL. But so what? - EM is a game. Anyway, there are some skilled teams in various industries in RL that aren't needed full time by a single employer. They are paid a retainer to give the payer first priority when they finish their present contract. So in action it might look something like . . .

you let the crew go because you need a military ship for a while
you pay a retainer each cycle based on their competence and loyalty - their loyalty slowly depreciates the longer you don't recall them (they will be building loyalty towards other employers and since you don't seem to need them you slip down their 'favoured employer' list!)
when you recall them there is a random time before they become available (whilst they finish their current contract with someone else. After than time you get a message telling you where they will be so you can go and pick them up (ideally a core gated system so it doesn't become too complicated)

- an option might be to increase the 'unavailable time' the longer you don't recall them. It would then be worth getting the crew together for a few contracts on a regular basis - to keep them loving you!

If you don't like that idea you're always free to use the present system - dump a crew and start again when you need a crew again!

If you don't treat them right they'll leave. That part would/should remain. The loyalty part would potentially become loyalty to the whole crew and ship. Treated well, being there for longer and longer people are bound to feel more at home, especially in a confined space like a ship spending a lot of time in space! Hence less likely to jump ship or more likely to come back after being paid a retainer when laid off.

I like the suggestion that crew members could be hurt in fights. (well I don't - poor things - though space is a dangerous place for mercs! ) I like the idea in that it would add another level of decisions in combat - both attack and defence. Perhaps the weapons guy (or gal) could be 'hurt' if the weapons sub system was targeted and badly damaged- the engineer for the engines and so on! It would just need a behind the scenes 'crew repair' subroutine from Vice 'in the medbay' to nurse them back to full health - like the ship repair systems. Perhaps different class medical equipment could become another ships' equipment option methinks - money sinks!

Stations would obviously have state of the art med facilities so you could pay the premium to have the crew member back to full health immediately - again just like your ship

Would I like an android crew?

rationale: androids have no human needs, work needs, food needs, etc, then be turned off when not needed, turned on when needed, never to be lost to look for other/better options with another employer.

I definitely not keen on this. By definition, for me, a crew is not robotic. The robots building cars today are not employees, they're hi etc sophisticated tools - same for a ship's crew. An android team just becomes a set of up to four electronic pieces of equipment fitted to electronic hardpoints that you can 'equip'. You don't get a weapons officer, you get an upgraded targetting system. There wouldn't be a way of increasing loyalty since androids aren't loyal or disloyal. They wouldn't improve their competence - you'd just have to buy a higher class AI unit. Established players would immediately buy a set of the highest class and that would be the end of that part of the game play.

I'm not a luddite - but I suspect the crew Unions and Professional Organisations would be veerrry unhappy about such a development

Rightly or wrongly I'm assuming that the target audience are those players that use crewed civvy ships most of the time but occasionally want to hop over to a military frame for (relatively) short periods of time and overall I guess I'm fumbling towards something that lets a player release their crew for a short while but not lose them completely. The longer you don't use the crew the harder and more expensive it becomes to get them back.

EnoQc · Post by **EnoQc** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 3:42 pm

Just an Ideal ... what if we have the abitility to buy slaves, slaves being a commodity can easly be store in cargo bays , we would just need to feed them once in awile so they dont die ... (im sure vonari can make good engener and thecnicien) ...lol

Post by **DaveK** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:24 pm

I think we're far too moral a community to fly with that one! Illicit mind altering chemicals were vetoed. In fact smuggling was deemed a no no - despite the play opportunities being quite interesting and there being acceptance of piracy and blowing opponents ships to fragments!!

Have a look at Nigel's A Proposal for a Black Market Economy @ http://www.starwraith.com/forum/viewtop ... #pid163765

It makes a very interesting read about moral ambiguity!

haloterm · Post by **haloterm** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:01 pm

Slavery should at least bring some problems for the pilots buying slaves, for example getting problems with the authorities. Maybe technology itmes could help against cargo scans, so the slaves are hidden from the authorities ....

But I would not use slaves anyway.

Post by **Vice** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:25 pm

Would anyone object to having to manually dismiss their crew -before- switching to a military ship in order to avoid the retaining fees? If I advance this over to prototype testing, it'll be strange removing the automatic dismissal system entirely and adding systems to retain their presence, but it's probably worth exploring if enough players are interested and the potential negative effects are acceptable to most players using the current system.

Any other considerations or objections anyone wants to post at this point?

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:38 pm

I have no problem with that.

If I understand you correct, the pay for the crew
is kept by default. You activelly must terminate
the crew to avoid the pay for them right?

Bishop · Post by **Bishop** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:39 pm

From post: 171518, Topic: tid=11514, author=Vice wrote: Would anyone object to having to manually dismiss their crew -before- switching to a military ship in order to avoid the retaining fees? If I advance this over to prototype testing, it'll be strange removing the automatic dismissal system entirely and adding systems to retain their presence, but it's probably worth exploring if enough players are interested and the potential negative effects are acceptable to most players using the current system.

Any other considerations or objections anyone wants to post at this point?

I think I see what you're saying. Have the crew "retained" when switching to a military ship, and if you want to get rid of the crew, you have to do it manually before switching? This works for me, certainly. Perhaps offer a message when switching to a military ship informing the person that the crew will still be hired/active/paid/retained to avoid confusion, given how different that is from how it's worked in the past.

Thumbs up from me.

P.S. Vice, more game developers should be like you.

[Edited on 7-5-2014 by Bishop]

EnoQc · Post by **EnoQc** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:42 pm

no objection to Vice ideal

(i would of love to have vonari slave tho ... lol)

Busch · Post by **Busch** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:01 am

Okay with manual dismissal of crew members.

Post by **Marvin** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:30 am

Manual is my favorite.

But what happens if you jump into a military ship (or a ship with fewer crew slots) without first dismissing the crew?

Bishop · Post by **Bishop** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:16 am

From post: 171526, Topic: tid=11514, author=Marvin wrote:Manual is my favorite. But what happens if you jump into a military ship (or a ship with fewer crew slots) without first dismissing the crew?

Well, that's the root of the issue. The way it works now, you can dismiss your crew whenever you want, but if you switch to a military ship, it gives you a message, something like: "Insufficient capacity for crew. Crew will be dismissed if built." And if you build it, you lose them, same as if you had dismissed them.

Instead, they would be retained aboard the station for a fee (perhaps simply their wages continuing to cycle). But, if you're switching to a civilian ship and building it with not enough crew slots... I don't think that should qualify, because there is no civilian ship that I am aware of which cannot possibly be fitted with 4 crew slots (the number of different kinds of crew members), making that a choice. All military ships have 0 possible crew, so they're different; you don't get a choice with them.

That's just my opinion, though. And really, it wouldn't be the end of the world if it worked for both military and civilian ships. Just my thoughts.

[Edited on 7-5-2014 by Bishop]

Noesis · Post by **Noesis** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:40 am

I like the general idea of having a facility of being able to retain crew, however I'm curious as to how a manual dismissal (or in other words an auto-retaining) system will work under certain conditions.

I understand it for where one is swapping ships in a hangar, or buying/trading a ship at a station - where I'm having trouble thinking of this is when trading a ship at a carrier, as at a carrier there is no hangar and no way to buy a ship without storing one prior so the only option is to trade one. (there would also be no available crew quarters for the crew just like there is no crew management available when docked at a carrier)

The problem here is that if I'm following what has been said in this topic, there wouldn't be a way to actually store you're crew prior to going to a carrier with your civilian frame, without a manual retaining system as well. (true one could deliberately make a ship with zero crew quarters for this specific purpose but it's kind of unintuitive to do it that way).

I guess I'm thinking there should be a Manual Retain option as well. Maybe that was implied & I misunderstood but putting it out there.

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:03 am

You could "store" your crew at a station prior to
docking with the carrier.

haloterm · Post by **haloterm** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:09 am

From post: 171540, Topic: tid=11514, author=SeeJay wrote:You could "store" your crew at a station prior to
docking with the carrier.

Exactly my thoughts on that issue.

Post by **DaveK** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:54 pm

I have no problems with manually getting rid of crew as the alternative to paying them a retainer if I want them to come back in the future

-Pv- · Post by **-Pv-** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:02 pm

I like the idea. While they are "retained" while flying a mil ship, their living expenses are covered on the station where you dropped them off and you have to go there to pick them up again. Kind of a paid vacation. If the expense for doing that is a bit larger than an on-ship crew salary, then that's the offset cost of not having to search for, train and loyal them up.

-Pv-

[Edited on 7-5-2014 by -Pv-]

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:34 am

I think most everyone knows I want an ability to retain crew members.
I also think the ones who are against it are ones who don't use them anyway.
It's a game - why shouldn't the ones of us who do want to retain crew members have the option??? It's not like it would change the game balance or give those players who would use the option an advantage over other game players.
If you fly a military from you don't have any advantage and if you fly a civvie frame and use a crew you do have (nowever much it may be) the advantage of the crew's experience.
Denying a player the ability to retain a crew when he has the desire to try a miliary frame and it's advantages and penalize that player's time and work he put into making his crew 100% loyal seems to me unfair.

I'd like to try a military frame but I'm darned if I will at the expense of losing my Civvie crew when I want to go back to my Civvie ship.

I personally think each Civvie frame ought to be able to retain it's configured crew members also, aka 4 in the case of my Mammoth and say 2 if I wanted to store the Mammoth and fly a Guardian configured for 2 crew members.

As for the Real Life arguments - they don't hold water.
Consider Volunteer Firemen (and anything else) in towns or communites that are too small to have the Full time equivalents.
Someone already mentioned the Reserves like the Army and Air National Guards in the US.
I'm sure there are plenty other similar fields I have no idea of.

Post by **Marvin** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:36 am

I can visualize a fan fiction story coming out of all this. Preferably one without any four-letter words.