By the Way

[PaulB]

Hi,
I was wondering if DaveK or someone who has done testing would care to do some Weapons Lab test in MP seeing as I can't rely on my Mobile Wireless internet for MP.
I've got settings for a Beam gun and 4 Particle guns that I've done Energy/Firing Time test in SP.

I'm curious how the Beam with each Particle cannon would test in Killing Time of the same ship. What the Times would be.
(1) If any of the combos can kill before energy is drained (either using 0/0 or -5+5)?
(2) or if noe of the Combos can pass Step (1) then what wold be the killing time of each Particle gun alone on said ship - ither using 0/0 or -5/5?
It's the Particle guns I'm interested in - so to keep it simplified - all using the same Beam listed.

Would be much appreciated if its not a lot of trouble.

These are the Beam & Particle guns I've done the SP firing test on:
Beam:
#1_Metal-Vapor______ML>51Y/11C
____EO = 100_______51 Y
____CR = 89________16 H/S
____HS = 100_______11 E/S

Particle Guns:
#1_Rail Cannon______RP>75Y/78R/14C__Beam+#1__Time
____EO = 96________75 Y_________Energy = 0/0___12s
____AS = 100_______168 H/S____________ = -5/5__ 23s
____CR = 96________20 E/S
____HS = 100_______780 M
__________________400 RPM/14C

#2_Fusion Cannon___FP>74Y/79R/15C__Beam+#2__Time
____EO = 74_______74 Y_________Energy = 0/0___ 12s
____AS = 90_______156 H/S____________ = -5/5__ 23s
____CR = 96_______28 E/S
____HS = 100______790 M
_________________392 RPM/15C

#3_ Fusion Cannon___FP>77Y/78R/19C__Beam+#3__Time
____EO = 85_______77 Y_________Energy = 0/0___ 13s
____AS = 35_______130 H/S____________ = -5/5__ 30s
____CR = 90_______28 E/S
____HS = 100______780 M
_________________362 RPM/19C

#4_Fusion Cannon___FP>71Y/79R/14C__Beam+#4__Time
____EO = 66_______71 Y_________Energy = 0/0___ 11s
____AS = 100______156 H/S____________ = -5/5__ 21s
____CR = 96_______27 E/S
____HS = 100______790 M
_________________400 RPM/14C

It's a lot of hassle so I understand if no one wants to undertake the test.
If you do then much thanks in advance.

Paul

[Iron man]

HI PaulB,

Well I think it's not a question of "it take time to do it" but it's more a question of " I'm keeping the result for me or share it with my friends or clan"

That right have a better weapons than a enemy can have a several advantage in PVP. I hope you understand than what you are asking is a huge ! spoiler

If you want more information about weapon I will recommend you join a clan for example and I will ask you to write please on your title (Warning spoiler)
Thx you.

[picommander]

I'm not sure (or rather: I doubt) whether and to what extend you can trust the numbers. At least when it comes to range. Recently I did some testing on asteroids and found that all theoretical range numbers are actually about 50m (+ a few) shorter. The problem with such tests on asteroids though is that the shown radar distance also isn't accurate. I already bump with the roid at around 17m, so what does it mean? Does the radar distance show the center of the roid? Also, if the radar would show the distance to the hull of the roid you never should bumb with a positive range (which seems always the case from my experience). Anyway, in either case it wouldn't explain the difference of 50+m between the real and the theoretical range.

The custom fusion cannon (particle) that I've build has theoretical values of Y82, R790, C16 (simply all sliders to the right). Compared to the Phantom (Y75, R650, C28) that I was using before, this weapon blows an asteroid just one second faster (5 seconds). That's somewhat surprising, cause the custom cannon should be *far* superior (theoretically) to the Phantom cause both yield *and* fire ratio are better. Even more confusing is the fact, that this custom weapon can be fired infinitely and even let energy reserves grow while the Phantom depletes the energy pool in about 30 seconds. On top of it look at the Phantom's sell price that is almost 100 times higher than this custom cannon (I know that's specific for all custom weapons, for whatever reason). I just fail to see why someone should use any other particle weapon than this custom weapon, provided the player is using beam and particle cannons separately.

Situation might vary for other combat styles but the tendency seems clear to me: The whole diversity of the weapon lab looks pretty pseudo to me. There seems no real balance, just one superior weapon. But, as always, I'd be glad to be proved wrong of course!
Show me a better particle fusion cannon to start with...

If it matters, for the test I've used a Starmaster with 4 officers: Weapon, engineer, science and navigator all at 100/100. Same for testing the Phantom and the custom cannon.

[PaulB]

I'm not sure (or rather: I doubt) whether and to what extend you can trust the numbers. At least when it comes to range. Recently I did some testing on asteroids and found that all theoretical range numbers are actually about 50m (+ a few) shorter. The problem with such tests on asteroids though is that the shown radar distance also isn't accurate. I already bump with the roid at around 17m, so what does it mean? Does the radar distance show the center of the roid? Also, if the radar would show the distance to the hull of the roid you never should bumb with a positive range (which seems always the case from my experience). Anyway, in either case it wouldn't explain the difference of 50+m between the real and the theoretical range.

{SNIP}

If it matters, for the test I've used a Starmaster with 4 officers: Weapon, engineer, science and navigator all at 100/100. Same for testing the Phantom and the custom cannon.

A couple of things there:
I can see the issues - the Radar has to measure distance from it transmitter/receiver to the target (asteroid) and back so it can't take into account the length of your ship or the shape of the asteroid so yes the nose of your ship or a wing could bump an object prior to Range reaching zero - also an oblog asteroid may rotate so it's end is closer to you than it's side.

As far as the time destroying asteroids - very unreliable and why? - because you can be sure in your test that each asteroid you destroy is the same sized. There is no way to judge size except by site so you can only choose them of approximately the same size so the times may well vary for that reason.

[PaulB]

HI PaulB,

Well I think it's not a question of "it take time to do it" but it's more a question of " I'm keeping the result for me or share it with my friends or clan"

That right have a better weapons than a enemy can have a several advantage in PVP. I hope you understand than what you are asking is a huge ! spoiler

If you want more information about weapon I will recommend you join a clan for example and I will ask you to write please on your title (Warning spoiler)
Thx you.

I understand - I figured there would be reluctance
If I was able to do MP I wouldn't even have asked for the very reasons you stated and just tried to find a willing subject to perform my own test on.

I suspect the differences are probably fairly minor.

Thanks anyway.

[picommander]

@PaulB:

Forget the range to asteroids for a moment, that was just a side note to relativize my test conditions (and if you read further why it's not relevant for my statements).

Main (admittedly somewhat provoking) point was:

I just fail to see why someone should use any other particle weapon than this custom weapon, provided the player is using beam and particle cannons separately.

With "this particle custom weapon" I refer to a custom fusion cannon, simply build by all sliders to the right. Just show me an alternative build that makes sense (again: for pilots using particle and beam lasers independently).

[Marvin]

(again: for pilots using particle and beam lasers independently).

How does that stack up against pilots who fire the two weapons together? (Btw, when talking range-before-bumping-into-an-asteroid, take ship's shield thickness into consideration.)

[Rubber Chicken]

^ Also it appears all ranges for asteroids are measured from the center, not the surface.

No matter what weapon is used, the effective firing range for asteroids is 750.

[Edited on 6-1-2014 by Rubber Chicken]

[PaulB]

^ Also it appears all ranges for asteroids are measured from the center, not the surface.

No matter what weapon is used, the effective firing range for asteroids is 750.

[Edited on 6-1-2014 by Rubber Chicken]

if you are saying that you must be at least 750 from a asteroid to destroy it you are wrong. All my test cannons I can destroy an asteroid farther than that - but that is with a Weapons Officer in the crew - and I'm going to say how far.

[DaveK]

Hi,
I was wondering if DaveK or someone who has done testing would care to do some Weapons Lab test in MP seeing as I can't rely on my Mobile Wireless internet for MP.
I've got settings for a Beam gun and 4 Particle guns that I've done Energy/Firing Time test in SP.

I'm curious how the Beam with each Particle cannon would test in Killing Time of the same ship. What the Times would be.
(1) If any of the combos can kill before energy is drained (either using 0/0 or -5+5)?
(2) or if noe of the Combos can pass Step (1) then what wold be the killing time of each Particle gun alone on said ship - ither using 0/0 or -5/5?
It's the Particle guns I'm interested in - so to keep it simplified - all using the same Beam listed.

Would be much appreciated if its not a lot of trouble.

It's a lot of hassle so I understand if no one wants to undertake the test.

Paul

As Iron man says, the results I publish (as opposed to the research I do) give the basic information you need to decide on how to create you set up. I try hard not to give spoiler info - just try to save some 'reinvention of the wheel' time.

I used basic info available and time to kill testing (Marvin was extremely patient ) to choose my cannon combo in the days before the WL but I know from experience it certainly wasn't the best combination. Time to kill a stationary target is only a first factor - it's how you and your weapons perform as a whole when the target is fighting back that counts. Weapons are only a small part of combat success. Many of the experienced pilots can kill with a Ferret and a basic cannon combo (I know from experience ) - skill is a much bigger factor.

I would have to get someone to sit, blow up and respawn and do periodic material hunts and weapon rebuilds simply to test four of the thousands of particle weapons with one of the thousands of beam weapons at a variety of weapon/shield balances. I doubt that anyone would volunteer. I've asked Vice to include an auto-respawning standard 'target' that could be used for solo weapons research but it isn't top of the community's wish-list - I can't understand why not . It might be worth us asking again for a deployable re-usable auto-respawning target - if enough players are interested in experimenting as part of their efforts to choose their dream weapon combo's - it would support practical combat testing. I'd love to able to experiment without asking for volunteers to suffer extreme boredom! It would be much easier for me to take on 'commissions' to perform testing for people!

I've now got a combo (a very generous payoff from a clan for services rendered) that can fire non-stop without depleting it's energy and has a decent sting and range. So they do exist But with my combat skill, sadly it doesn't make me invincible or guarantee a kill

[picommander]

(again: for pilots using particle and beam lasers independently).

How does that stack up against pilots who fire the two weapons together? [snip]

Probably not at all, but for pilots that do (and I always thought it's the majority cause to me it seems the most effective way, isn't it?) I ask you where is all the diversity in the weapon lab when in this case only one weapon is clearly the best? So far no one wants to disagree here...

[Rubber Chicken]

^ Also it appears all ranges for asteroids are measured from the center, not the surface.

No matter what weapon is used, the effective firing range for asteroids is 750.

[Edited on 6-1-2014 by Rubber Chicken]

if you are saying that you must be at least 750 from a asteroid to destroy it you are wrong. All my test cannons I can destroy an asteroid farther than that - but that is with a Weapons Officer in the crew - and I'm going to say how far.

I'll have to do a little more testing myself then. I'll try with a Flarebeam - range 830, a max-available range custom setup - 790 - and with / without a Weapons Officer.

[zex]

(again: for pilots using particle and beam lasers independently).

How does that stack up against pilots who fire the two weapons together? [snip]

Probably not at all, but for pilots that do (and I always thought it's the majority cause to me it seems the most effective way, isn't it?) I ask you where is all the diversity in the weapon lab when in this case only one weapon is clearly the best? So far no one wants to disagree here...

unless something significantly changed in the last year in regards to weapons, there are two particle base styles that are the "best"..assuming you are flying a mil frame and everything. it just won't be obvious until you are out there using them in the real evoverse.

There are some other things that you might not be considering (firing rate vs. your accuracy and ability to hit the target comes to mind) I've always found range not too much an issue..

[DaveK]

I ask you where is all the diversity in the weapon lab when in this case only one weapon is clearly the best? So far no one wants to disagree here...

I disagree . . . at least for me and my fighting style - such as it is

[picommander]

Your above tables show a combination of particle and beam laser.
Don't you agree with me that there are players that use both weapons separately?
And would you, in this case, still disagree when I say those tables are pretty moot for these players?

[Iron man]

Im agree with Davek make your weapon who match with your sryle or fight/ fly.

Example : RC blow me up everytimes he using a flarebeam..... If my memory is exact its the first weapon of the game

I bounce on Zex range is not really a issue everything turn around how you manage the situation.

[picommander]

Im agree with Davek make your weapon who match with your sryle or fight/ fly.

Sorry mate, I've never questioned that. You and Dave just turn around my statements into something that you like to assume it was meant.
Looks like another case of language barrier. As in weak spelling from my side, but I just can't do any better.
Either that or you both constantly ignore the meaning of the word "if".

[Rubber Chicken]

For the record, I'm staying out of the above disagreement. All I know is that I had a need for a weapon that performed in a certain way, based on certain conditions, and the Weapons Lab was able to provide quite nicely.

[SeeJay]

I always use my weapons separately. Beam to bring shields down and guns to punch the hull.

What combo I use depends on who I fight. (Or what style I currently fancy).
Keeping distance requires a different combo (and frame) than if you get in close enough so you'll see the fear in the pilots eye's!

I can't produce any hard facts such as lab tests. I test combo's and keep what I like. (Might not be the best in others opinion tho, but it works for me).

This is just my opinion, not science. That I leave to Dave!:P

[PaulB]

Hi,
I was wondering if DaveK or someone who has done testing would care to do some Weapons Lab test in MP seeing as I can't rely on my Mobile Wireless internet for MP.
I've got settings for a Beam gun and 4 Particle guns that I've done Energy/Firing Time test in SP.

I'm curious how the Beam with each Particle cannon would test in Killing Time of the same ship. What the Times would be.
(1) If any of the combos can kill before energy is drained (either using 0/0 or -5+5)?
(2) or if noe of the Combos can pass Step (1) then what wold be the killing time of each Particle gun alone on said ship - ither using 0/0 or -5/5?
It's the Particle guns I'm interested in - so to keep it simplified - all using the same Beam listed.

Would be much appreciated if its not a lot of trouble.

It's a lot of hassle so I understand if no one wants to undertake the test.

Paul

As Iron man says, the results I publish (as opposed to the research I do) give the basic information you need to decide on how to create you set up. I try hard not to give spoiler info - just try to save some 'reinvention of the wheel' time.

I used basic info available and time to kill testing (Marvin was extremely patient ) to choose my cannon combo in the days before the WL but I know from experience it certainly wasn't the best combination. Time to kill a stationary target is only a first factor - it's how you and your weapons perform as a whole when the target is fighting back that counts. Weapons are only a small part of combat success. Many of the experienced pilots can kill with a Ferret and a basic cannon combo (I know from experience ) - skill is a much bigger factor.

I would have to get someone to sit, blow up and respawn and do periodic material hunts and weapon rebuilds simply to test four of the thousands of particle weapons with one of the thousands of beam weapons at a variety of weapon/shield balances. I doubt that anyone would volunteer. I've asked Vice to include an auto-respawning standard 'target' that could be used for solo weapons research but it isn't top of the community's wish-list - I can't understand why not . It might be worth us asking again for a deployable re-usable auto-respawning target - if enough players are interested in experimenting as part of their efforts to choose their dream weapon combo's - it would support practical combat testing. I'd love to able to experiment without asking for volunteers to suffer extreme boredom! It would be much easier for me to take on 'commissions' to perform testing for people!

I've now got a combo (a very generous payoff from a clan for services rendered) that can fire non-stop without depleting it's energy and has a decent sting and range. So they do exist But with my combat skill, sadly it doesn't make me invincible or guarantee a kill

Skill is not really the point at all.

Assume that you have a hostile in your sites and target and you have the little Circle icon (gun lock??) on the target showing you are within firing range and you are able to keep firing on the target and you are hitting him cause you an see his Shield globe lighting up - and assume on top of that some other target has got in range and is pounding you or may be about to - well in a case like that it wold be nice to know if you have the most effective weapon combo to kill in the quickest amount of time - and that wold be very hard to test in combat - where as being able to test your weapons on a real ship non-combat would help you decide on your choice of weapons.

And without that ability I really see little point in Weapons Lab since al you are doing is guessing - you might as well just use a Maxim-R and some decent Beam gun.

And as for the firing weapons seperate - my feelng is that if I'm trying to protect a CAP ship I was to kill as many fo the hostiles as quick as I can and I don't think the quickest method is firing beam to get the shields down and then cannon to destroy the hull.
I got 3 buttons mapped on my game pad so I can fire any one of all and I've only got so many fingers to maneuver and fire weapons and accelerate/decelerate so all that dictates how I'm going to fire weapons also. I'd much prefer to have my Tachyon cannons from PGG so I can ust blast the h*** out of stuff killing shields and hull at the same time - but - oh well...

I'll toss this in also:
by the Byrds:
To everything turn turn turn
There is a season turn turn turn
And time for every purpose under heaven.
-----
A time to fire Beam, a time to fire Cannon,
A time to fire Both, a time to fire Missiles,
And a time - to refrain - from firing.
-----

The idea of Vice adding a Weapons Lab test target is a great idea - would save a lot of angst over giving away secrets to other players and spending a lot of time in MP doing the test you did. A typical shielded ship as a test target as might would encounter during combat.

I'll add this too. I think Weapons Lab Missiles are useless even if you consider price alone.
What might be interesting is if you could design and test missiles and if you found settings you liked then you pay that massive fee that is being charged and from then on whenever you Build a Trade Station anywere then those Missiles would automatically become part of the standard Inventoryof your Stations but the cost would be comparable to what other missiles would cost you at yor stations. Now that would be interesting.

Paul

[Edited on 6-2-2014 by PaulB]

[DaveK]

I see where you are coming from but I think that skill is relevant because unless you can hit your target and avoid being englobed by hostiles it doesn't really matter how effective your cannon are. And skill is what works effectively for you and your combat style - the actual practical manoevering that works for you will probably not work for me - if for no other reason than your choice for frame and equipment determine and are determined by your chosen combat style.

If you look at the data I collected with Marvin using the standard available cannon you can see whether they actually support the oft quoted idea that beam cannon take shields out quickly with minimal energy depletion and then particle cannon finish your target off before you run out of energy. My conclusions weren't about specific cannon and combo's but the general performance of beam cannon vs particle cannon vs combo firing.

EDIT: see the post below for a link to a file of the original post containing the three data tables!!

It's a great pity that we can't work together to collect the data you want - I'd be happy to be your target - what I was trying to say is that the data you want to collect wouldn't be directly applicable to combat and different combat styles and hence given the thousands of custom cannon combo's that can be created in the WL it wouldn't be easy for me to find a volunteer to spare a significant amount of their game time for a few specific results.

What's the prognosis for you getting a decent connection in the near/middling future? What's the best server for you? It might be worth a try, even if it takes time



[Edited on 2-6-2014 by DaveK]

[DaveK]

Your above tables show a combination of particle and beam laser.
Don't you agree with me that there are players that use both weapons separately?
And would you, in this case, still disagree when I say those tables are pretty moot for these players?

I've just checked back with the original thread: http://www.starwraith.com/forum/viewtop ... #pid133068

and the tables are missing which means you have to take my conclusions on trust! . My web pages disappeared and I thought I'd put the data in the Hints&Tips Guide but apparently not

The following file is the original post with the data tables in it - the tables show the timings for the beam and the particle cannon separately and the combo of the two. It's a .docx because a .doc file is too big to upload. If you can't read .docx, U2U me with your email and I'll sent you a .doc or a .pdf


[file]854[/file]



[Edited on 2-6-2014 by DaveK]

[DaveK]

Im agree with Davek make your weapon who match with your sryle or fight/ fly.

Sorry mate, I've never questioned that. You and Dave just turn around my statements into something that you like to assume it was meant.
Looks like another case of language barrier. As in weak spelling from my side, but I just can't do any better.
Either that or you both constantly ignore the meaning of the word "if".

A misunderstanding I think - I was responding to PaulB's request for data collection that started this thread. Rather than just give a fairly blunt 'Sorry, no' I was trying to explain why I don't think it would be worth the amount of game playtime it would take.

As for language - don't apologise - your English is infinitely better than my ability in any other language!

[picommander]

@Dave:

The docx file is perfectly readable with Libre Office, so no problem here.
Looks like awesome stuff and lots of work and sweat behind, but too early to make any comment on my side.
I'll need some time to study that tables.

Just 2 questions:
From a first glance it seemed to me that you where using standard weapons instead of self-made ones from the weapon lab.
Is this correct? These tables also seemed from pre-extension. Do you think they still hold true?

As a side note, I've never had any doubt that skill is much more important than choice of weapon, but (as Paul mentioned above) that wasn't the point here.
And thanks for the friendly encouragement regarding my spelling: Most of the time I'm very unsure what my reckless constructs from dict.cc and google search actually say to native ears! Just trust me my german is much better and if I ever sound rude or even insulting most of the time it'll be my spelling to blame for...

[picommander]

From what I can see now it appears that weapon labs where first introduced with the extension last year (?) and your tables are from pre-extension, correct?
When looking at the first table (energy use) the lowest level particle weapon (Icespear) seems to be the only one in that table that runs infinitely when used alone. At least the mid-range weapons run out eventually.
Compare this with the heaviest (=> highest yield, longest range, highest energy consumption etc.) weapon you can build from the weapon lab now (it's the custom fusion particle weapon with all sliders to the right):
This weapon also runs infinitely (when used alone)! Do you see now where I'm driving at?
The relations just seem to be wrong in my book.