Toggle Inertial Forward/Reverse to Throttle

Kalthios · Post by **Kalthios** » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:19 pm

I always fly in inertial mode, I like space to feel like space, and would like to be able to use my joystick.

I can set a throttle axis but it doesn't affect forward speed in inertial mode. Is there a way I can bind forward and reverse thrust to the positive and negative portions of one of my joystick axises? (it would be great if the throttle just switched from a speed setting to an amount of fore and aft thrust setting when putting the ship into inertial mode)

Angitherias · Post by **Angitherias** » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:39 pm

What kind of joystick do you use?

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:50 pm

This is not possible at the moment. Vice has made a thread about changing the current setup regarding inertial and IDS speed control. I voted to keep the system as it is, it is more realistic to me. When you are in inertia and you fire up any thruster to increase speed or change direction your speed keeps increasing till you turn of the thruster!
You can not stay at a constant speed in inertia with your thrusters constant burning. So you would have to have a sophisticated Joystick that you can program to turn of thrusters at a desired reached speed in inertia and I do not see how you would do this with an axis asigned to inertia. I have a Saitek X52 and have the precision slider set to inertia forward and reverse and the middle setting of the slider with some deadzone margin set to thrusters off so I can control my inertial speed on my throttle stick with the Precision Slider!.....Hope this helps!....

Kalthios · Post by **Kalthios** » Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:08 pm

I mean to have analogue control of fore and aft thrusters in inertial mode, not a speed setting, same as is now available for horizontal and verticle strafing axises. Forward and Reverse inertial buttons are simply on or off while I would like to have full range of control.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:09 pm

Inertia mode is when thrusters are off, that means your sliding or drifting at a constant speed with out force being aplied. Once you turn any thruster on you apply a force to change the direction and speed of this sliding and drifting. So if you have IDS on you already are using analog axis to control your inertial drifting and dampen the effect in a controlled maner. Now the inertial thrusters do the same thing using specified thrusters to change direction and speed of the inertial movement. And the fore and aft inertial thrusters work the same as the horizontal and vertical straffe at the moment. You hold the respective button down and the respective thruster engages, you let the respective button go and the respective thruster disengages. All you have to do is asign your for and aft buttons to a free axis of your joystick if you want it to work like the horizontal and vertical straffe.
The reason I use the precision slider is because I do not have a free axis on my joystick or doing so would inhibit some other efficiency in a critical combat situation!....

Post by **Vice** » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:47 pm

If you use the 'suspend' method described in the other thread, then you can leave the IDS on and hold your current lateral/vertical drift while then using variable throttle control. I do this a lot in dogfights already and it provides that kind of control option. Plus, you don't even have to toggle the IDS to use it.

TwoToes27 · Post by **TwoToes27** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:53 am

Maarschalk, would you mind explaining how you were able to set that slider to control the inertia thrusters?

I have a 3Dconnexion product that I'm using as a 6 axis joystick and the pedals to a racing wheel (the wheel is sitting on a chair next to me) that I'd like to use for the inertial thrusters. The pedals act as another axis in my list of device axes and return to the center when I take my feet off of them. I'd like to set up something similar to what you had mentioned.

If this other thread Vice has mentioned explains more of that, could you link to it? I wasn't able to find it after a quick search.

Thanks.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:06 am

From post: 124848, Topic: tid=8182, author=TwoToes27 wrote:Maarschalk, would you mind explaining how you were able to set that slider to control the inertia thrusters?

I have a 3Dconnexion product that I'm using as a 6 axis joystick and the pedals to a racing wheel (the wheel is sitting on a chair next to me) that I'd like to use for the inertial thrusters. The pedals act as another axis in my list of device axes and return to the center when I take my feet off of them. I'd like to set up something similar to what you had mentioned.

If this other thread Vice has mentioned explains more of that, could you link to it? I wasn't able to find it after a quick search.

Thanks.

Hi Twotoes27, welcome to the game and forum...Hope to see you out there some time!.....

On my saitek X52 I have the precision slider set up as 3 bands in the profile editor and asigned the Keys for fore at aft thrust to the upper band and lower band with the middle band being do nothing so the middle band is my deadzone and will turn thrusters of.....

I lost the link Vice mentioned to, I could not find it!...

[Edited on 1-21-2012 by Maarschalk]

TwoToes27 · Post by **TwoToes27** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:27 pm

Thanks for the info Maarschalk, after some searching online I was able to find a profile manager for my racing wheel and now have the brake and gas pedals as their own axis. However I can no longer use horizontal strafe as an axis. Oh well.

My next question for you is how were you able to map the upper portion of your slider for fwd thrust and the lower portion for aft thrust? When choosing axis for control it only asks for the 'throttle axis'. Any suggestions?

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:44 pm

From post: 124997, Topic: tid=8182, author=TwoToes27 wrote:Thanks for the info Maarschalk, after some searching online I was able to find a profile manager for my racing wheel and now have the brake and gas pedals as their own axis. However I can no longer use horizontal strafe as an axis. Oh well.

My next question for you is how were you able to map the upper portion of your slider for fwd thrust and the lower portion for aft thrust? When choosing axis for control it only asks for the 'throttle axis'. Any suggestions?

The Profile editor for my Saitek X52 has an option when programming controls for the precision slider to Choose Bands or Directional Axis and what Keys to asign to the bands and what percentage to put the bands width. And for Directional Axis it also gives you the option to asign Keys to the + portion and - portion of the Axis and then you could asign a deadzone for the Directional Axis in the Control panel of the Siatek X52.

The profile editor for the X52 is very versatile and you can asign and modify anything to your liking what works for you!....

[Edited on 1-21-2012 by Maarschalk]

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Mon May 05, 2014 9:37 pm

Sorry for reviving a zombie but for days I'm looking for a solution which I still haven't found. There are various threads dealing with this topic, but I'm still not quite pleased. I have a X52 (as many of us as it seems) and use almost exactly Maarschalk's method of using bands for the precision slide (with a range of 60% idle in the middle band for no thrust). So far so good, but come's my problem. I use separate buttons for beam and particle laser, for beam laser I assigned the small thumb button on the throttle, next diagonal right above the slide. Whenever I try to fine tune my range while firing at enemies, I frequently have to move my thumb between slide and this button. Somehow I think there must be a better solution, other than change my whole setup (at which I got already somewhat used to).

Recently I found a thread (which I can't find anymore, I was looking for something entirely else at this time), where Vice was asking and offering a feature where - if I got this right - the inertia toggle would change the main thruster to an inertial forward/reverse switch and back to normal when toggle to IDS mode. Most of the players didn't like that and voted for "leave it at is". It's not my intention to start a new discussion about this or a new vote (though maybe with some new players since then we would see some new habits and a different result). Anyway, I wonder why no one even considered to make such a function optional, via checkbox in the option menu (with default to the current state). I would really appreciate such an option, provided there also would be a large idle range in the middle (like I have currently programmed on the slide). An easy to access "no thrust range" would be mandatory IMO if using inertial forward/reverse assigned to an axis.

From post: 120386, Topic: tid=8182, author=Vice wrote: If you use the 'suspend' method described in the other thread, then you can leave the IDS on and hold your current lateral/vertical drift while then using variable throttle control. I do this a lot in dogfights already and it provides that kind of control option. Plus, you don't even have to toggle the IDS to use it.

I'd assume this method would be only useful if you assign your inertial forward/reverse key to buttons. But I HAVE only so much buttons on my stick and thruster!

Quite possible I haven't quite understand this method yet, but it seems to me it's mainly for pilots flying in IDS mode most of the time. I'm rather an "inertial pilot" though.

Post by **Vice** » Mon May 05, 2014 11:53 pm

Recently I found a thread (which I can't find anymore, I was looking for something entirely else at this time), where Vice was asking and offering a feature where - if I got this right - the inertia toggle would change the main thruster to an inertial forward/reverse switch and back to normal when toggle to IDS mode. Most of the players didn't like that and voted for "leave it at is". It's not my intention to start a new discussion about this or a new vote (though maybe with some new players since then we would see some new habits and a different result). Anyway, I wonder why no one even considered to make such a function optional, via checkbox in the option menu (with default to the current state). I would really appreciate such an option, provided there also would be a large idle range in the middle (like I have currently programmed on the slide). An easy to access "no thrust range" would be mandatory IMO if using inertial forward/reverse assigned to an axis.

That thread you found must have been pretty old (as is this one). The option to use a variable axis input to control forward/reverse thrusters was added way back in December of 2012 when the expansion was released (refer to: http://www.starwraith.com/evochronmerce ... ansion.htm near the bottom under the 'Control and Input' section of the changelog). To set it, click on the axis you want to map the control function to in the axis configuration menu, then click on 'inertial forward/reverse' to bind it to that axis channel. This option will also allow you to map inertial control on the same axis as IDS throttle control without a conflict, so the game will automatically toggle the control mode for you based on the IDS mode you are in.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Tue May 06, 2014 12:53 am

This is awesome - but there are 2 flaws with it: Inertia works in opposite directions so if you push the throttle you decrease velocity! This is counterintuitive. The invert button doesn't help here cause everything is inverted then, even the afterburner (I actually use it on throttle). But I think I even could get used to it if there wasn't the other flaw: No idle range in the middle. If one of your reasons to fly mostly in inertia mode is to save fuel this isn't for you.

Btw, before I programmed my throttle slide (with bands) to inertia forward/reverse I tried to use the ingame axis option. Here's the same problem: no idle range in the middle. Strange enough though, while testing it in the options menu it *seems* to render some kind of 3 point range, but in practical game it just works like s slider, not what the menu suggests.

Post by **Vice** » Tue May 06, 2014 1:21 am

This is awesome - but there are 2 flaws with it: Inertia works in opposite directions so if you push the throttle you decrease velocity! This is counterintuitive. The invert button doesn't help here cause everything is inverted then, even the afterburner (I actually use it on throttle).

You are correct on this, something isn't working correctly with that axis channel. It should be inverse of what it is defaulting to along with 1:1 linear signal input. I'm looking into this now and plan to include corrections as needed in the next update. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

But I think I even could get used to it if there wasn't the other flaw: No idle range in the middle. If one of your reasons to fly mostly in inertia mode is to save fuel this isn't for you.

The X52 has an idle range built into the middle of its throttle travel (at least mine does). But if it isn't wide enough, that is something you should be able to adjust within the Saitek control panel as desired. One point to consider, if you artificially increase the central deadzone of that axis channel, it will reduce the overall range of control available to it.

As for signal input, the control option takes the axis channel signal and automatically ports it over to range selection for a two way range rather than one way. But since both parts of the input equation may have an issue, it may not be working as intended. I'll work on the alignment and signal issue mentioned above, then once that part of the functionality is set up correctly, working on a different central deadzone might be a little more consistent and easier for you to work with.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Tue May 06, 2014 1:41 am

Thanks a lot Vice, I'm looking forward to the next update!

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Tue May 06, 2014 1:56 am

From post: 169715, Topic: tid=8182, author=Vice wrote:
The X52 has an idle range built into the middle of its throttle travel (at least mine does). But if it isn't wide enough, that is something you should be able to adjust within the Saitek control panel as desired. One point to consider, if you artificially increase the central deadzone of that axis channel, it will reduce the overall range of control available to it.

As for signal input, the control option takes the axis channel signal and automatically ports it over to range selection for a two way range rather than one way. But since both parts of the input equation may have an issue, it may not be working as intended. I'll work on the alignment and signal issue mentioned above, then once that part of the functionality is set up correctly, working on a different central deadzone might be a little more consistent and easier for you to work with.

There seems indeed something broken here. I just experimented with a dead zone for the throttle and it seems to be reflected by the optical control slider in the ingame options menu, same what I see with the precision slide. But in both cases it just doesn't work like that. Ingame I can't see any stop in the middle range.

[Edited on 6-5-2014 by picommander]

Post by **Vice** » Tue May 06, 2014 2:52 am

For me, it's probably about a 5-10 degree range of movement in the middle where things are auto-centered. Seems to be typical behavior for X52's, so I'm not sure why yours would be different. Plus, what you see on the slider indicator in the config menu is what the game is receiving from the device and is what is applied as values to the game's control system. So if you see it there, you should also see the same in-game since they are using the same system.

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Tue May 06, 2014 4:54 am

From post: 120365, Topic: tid=8182, author=Kalthios wrote:I always fly in inertial mode, I like space to feel like space, and would like to be able to use my joystick.

I can set a throttle axis but it doesn't affect forward speed in inertial mode. Is there a way I can bind forward and reverse thrust to the positive and negative portions of one of my joystick axises? (it would be great if the throttle just switched from a speed setting to an amount of fore and aft thrust setting when putting the ship into inertial mode)

If you use Xpadder you can treat them as buttons as someone else posted and map them that way. I'm not sure it wouldn't be as effective. The analog controls are just too sensitive for me and I even have the Options set to Low sensitivity. It helps - but not enough. And with my Xbox 360 controller I have to set Deadzone to 2. If I'm in combat I find it hard to make small movements. It's like they are treated as Linear Controls rather than Logarithmic (if you have an electronics background).

Paul

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Tue May 06, 2014 4:54 am

@Vice
That's strange cause it doesn't seem to be the case for me (unless it's an extremely subtle 'movement'). But then I even don't know what exactly you mean with 'movement in the middle' since both the throttle axis and also that of the slide (if I use it as axis for inertia forward/revers control by the option menu, other than I currently use from the Saitek profile editor) producing linear 'sliding' movements ingame, w/o any kind of a break.

If it matters: My X52 is pretty new (less than 2 month), simple not the Pro version. The only thing I've modified is the mechanical stopper inside, that I've had removed. Can't have any affect on signals though.

[Edited on 6-5-2014 by picommander]

Post by **Vice** » Tue May 06, 2014 5:31 am

While the configuration menu provides visual markers for what the game sees, this program offers the raw values your device returns using the game's control input system:

http://www.starwraith.com/evochronmerce ... Config.zip

To install it, just extract the file from the zip and place it in the save data folder of the game, which is usually c:\\sw3dg\\EvochronMercenary (not the install folder, if it is different).

This program will let you see exactly what the game is seeing with a higher degree of precision using raw numeric values. So it may help you gauge exactly what may be going on with the device and where the game is or isn't receiving a central deadzone from it.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Tue May 06, 2014 6:01 am

Before I try this: I just re-checked both throttle and slide in the ingame options menu. There is indeed a very subtle stop in the middle range, but so small that I have a hard time to find this point ingame. It's a micro-range of something around 1mm and no other indicator than watching the velocity numbers. I also tried to set a large deadzone via Saitek Controller bar. This deadzone is actually shown in the option menu, but completely ignored ingame where it's basically the same: no difference with or without deadzone. This just can't be right. Even more extreme is the situation if I set the precision slide to Axis 5 and set as inertia forward/revers. The slider in the option menu jumps through 3 points: left, middle, right - exactly how it should be for this function. But ingame it's totally ignored again. The middle range is here also extremely small. Is it possible that there is a certain file screwed and/or a controller reset probably would help?

EDIT:
I renamed and re-created stickt.sw, to no avail.

[Edited on 6-5-2014 by picommander]

Post by **Vice** » Tue May 06, 2014 7:56 am

Is it possible that there is a certain file screwed and/or a controller reset probably would help?

Doubtful, it would appear to be an unexplainable inconsistency. I will be interested in learning what the raw numerical values show with the various settings you've tried.

While throttle is inherently linear with whatever the device sends back as a signal for speed selection/matching, the inertial thrusters do include the deadzone setting you select in the game's options menu in their calculations (just like the horizontal and vertical thrusters do) since it is a centralized two-way based control. So you should be able to use the two modes to compare how the in-game deadzone effects inertial forward/reverse compared to the linear receiving IDS on throttle input.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Tue May 06, 2014 2:48 pm

What I've said about the precision slide was wrong: I had forgotten a broad deadzone that I had adjusted via Saitek control bar (for testing the ingame axis 5 for inertia forward/reverse). I think it's not needed when using the slide for inertia forward/reverse via 3 bands with 1 idle in the middle range. This alone should do the trick. Though it's somewhat strange, that the (Saitek) deadzone is visible here at the ingame options menu slider but not in-flight. Anyway I'm interested in the thruster solution in the first place, but If you want to further investigate this strange behavior (I could check with the ingame deadzone for instance) I'll do some more testing with the slide.

So what your program shows was basically nothing new and reflects what I already could watch under the test tab of the Saitek control bar, just in numbers now. Any deadzones have no effect for throttle and slide here. If I push the throttle to the 0 range, a soft touch already moves it to the next -10 step. If I watch the scale on the throttle's foot I'd say this movement is even less than a millimeter.

All the more to my surprise an ingame deadzone actually has an in-flight effect if using the throttle for inertia, even a small deadzone of 1 already works (though still a little too small for my taste). The only drawback is that the ingame deadzone affects all axis and a value of 1 is the maximum I could tolerate for the stick. Not perfect but works. Ideal would be a separate deadzone for throttle main axis...

Can't wait for the next update, before I start to get used to the reversed direction of the inertia throttle function (just a stupid reminder, I'm sure you won't forget this

) Or wait... Is there probably a way to temporarily edit this direction?

UPDATE:
Deadzone actually works for the slide when used for Inertia FWD/REV (only in-flight, not seen at the options menu slider). Though same dilemma here: 1 is almost too small while 2 is too much for the stick.

[Edited on 6-5-2014 by picommander]

Post by **Vice** » Tue May 06, 2014 4:45 pm

I'm e-mailing you a link for the test build with the corrected alignment for the forward/reverse thruster control.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Tue May 06, 2014 5:32 pm

Great, thank you!