Spawning accidents with large vessels

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:10 pm

I'm currently doing contracts for Tranquility, the station in the outer orbit of Tranquil. As many of you will know this area has a pretty dense population and so it meanwhile happened 3 times during the last days that I was blown away by such a spawn (I guess it was a big ship, like a cruiser or command ship). Fortunately it always happened after I had accomplished a contract and already quicksaved. But what if this happens during a contract where you can't save? Keeps me from daring multi-waypoint contracts currently which is a pity somehow. I could change to another place of course with lower population but then I would also deny a portion of the fun I have here.

The strange thing is, that after reloading I was always spawning close to a big ship (hence my guesswork about blown away by a big ship) so there actually seems to be an ingame mechanism to prevent such accidents. But why not just activating this check (if it actually exist) before spawning in the first place?

Post by **Marvin** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:19 pm

From post: 169325, Topic: tid=11364, author=picommander wrote:I would also deny a portion of the fun I have here.

For many of us, the luck of the draw (enemy cap ships spawning close by) is part of the fun.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:36 pm

Ah c'mon, there is a lot of skill required in EM and then such a mindless lottery? I can't believe it...

Some others would consider that a design flaw.

[Edited on 27-4-2014 by picommander]

Post by **Vice** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:22 pm

There are checks in place to prevent such things, but in certain instances, they will not apply. In situations where they do, the check generally moves/places the capital ship at least 400m away from the player's spawn point, greater in some cases when you jump to a contract waypoint (which should generally be safe 100% of the time, especially if you're first on scene in MP or in SP).

One situation where it may not apply is when you make jumps and in some very rare cases, when the capital ships make jumps, although they will generally always arrive at a safe distance from your location as they do a sensor sweep at their arrival point before jumping (consider though that the time it takes to perform a jump may provide enough time for you to travel into their jump point if you're flying fast enough or spawn/jump at the same spot). Alternatively, you may also jump right into a capital ship. There are lower risk jump point zones, such as farther away from a station or properly aligned with a hangar entrance at close range, and you can also do things like run a sensor sweep of the area you plan to jump to within range of a sensor array before you make your jump (if you're really concerned with jump point safety). But colliding jump points is part of the equation and a risk associated with space navigation/travel in populated areas. To reduce and/or eliminate such risks requires the use of precautions. You won't always be able to jump right into a traffic zone and survive, rare crashes can and do occur. Maybe 98-99 times out of 100 you'll be fine, but there's always the chance that a jump point may have traffic. As mentioned before though, during the course of gameplay with contracts involved, your arrival jump point is almost always safe.

Post by **Marvin** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:27 pm

If you really have trouble with enemy capital ships exiting hyperspace near your ship, install an auto-CM launcher. The real danger from a cruiser suddenly appearing on your doorstep is the missiles it will fling your way while your back is turned. An auto-CM will deal with them handily while you're preoccupied elsewhere.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:01 pm

I don't believe these ships were enemy ships. As from the moment of pacifying Pearl there were no random hostile capital ships anymore. And judging from the capitol ships that appeared right next to me after reloading they where all allies. Thus my assumption is they all were spawning exactly at my position (call it another fine example of Murphy's Law if you like

) and it already happened 3 times during the last few days. It also was absolutely surprising since I was not under attack in all 3 cases nor did anything else point to a forthcoming accident. Though the pattern was always the same: Popped unexpectedly, reloaded saved game and always spawned directly next to an allied capitol ship.

Again: No big deal this time because I could always quicksaving before, but when such an accident happens during a contract (and imagine the last stage of a multi point contract) this would be more than annoying.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:14 pm

From post: 169335, Topic: tid=11364, author=Vice wrote: There are checks in place to prevent such things, but in certain instances, they will not apply.

Sounds soothing but then I'm lost here. No idea what actually might have happened.

From post: 169335, Topic: tid=11364, author=Vice wrote: In situations where they do, the check generally moves/places the capital ship at least 400m away from the player's spawn point, greater in some cases when you jump to a contract waypoint (which should generally be safe 100% of the time, especially if you're first on scene in MP or in SP).

So then a collision just could not occur. Just a thought: What would happen, if the calculated 'safe' spot is already occupied by an AI-ship?
Other than this I'm running out of ideas.

From post: 169335, Topic: tid=11364, author=Vice wrote: One situation where it may not apply is when you make jumps and in some very rare cases, when the capital ships make jumps, although they will generally always arrive at a safe distance from your location as they do a sensor sweep at their arrival point before jumping (consider though that the time it takes to perform a jump may provide enough time for you to travel into their jump point if you're flying fast enough or spawn/jump at the same spot). Alternatively, you may also jump right into a capital ship. There are lower risk jump point zones, such as farther away from a station or properly aligned with a hangar entrance at close range, and you can also do things like run a sensor sweep of the area you plan to jump to within range of a sensor array before you make your jump (if you're really concerned with jump point safety). But colliding jump points is part of the equation and a risk associated with space navigation/travel in populated areas. To reduce and/or eliminate such risks requires the use of precautions. You won't always be able to jump right into a traffic zone and survive, rare crashes can and do occur. Maybe 98-99 times out of 100 you'll be fine, but there's always the chance that a jump point may have traffic. As mentioned before though, during the course of gameplay with contracts involved, your arrival jump point is almost always safe.

I'm generally fine with that, but that was not my case. Before all 3 accidents I was cruising along after a finished contract or just some random hunting but NOT jumping!

Post by **Vice** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:37 pm

So then a collision just could not occur. Just a thought: What would happen, if the calculated 'safe' spot is already occupied by an AI-ship?

If, at the time the sensor scan was finished, an AI ship was at the location, the location would either be moved or the jump would not initiate. One of the reasons AI ships travel as slowly as they do is to reduce the chance of flying into a jump point during one in progress.

I'm generally fine with that, but that was not my case. Before all 3 accidents I was cruising along after a finished contract or just some random hunting but NOT jumping!

Although the frequency seems a bit high, it could have simply been the capital ship jumping in rather than a jump action on your part. One thought that comes to mind is that because of Tranquil's size and location, the jump point region around it is relatively limited compared to other planetary regions, forcing a narrower scope of arrival points, thus potentially increasing the risk of jump collisions, particularly around the station. So it could, in theory, create a higher risk jump environment than what might typically be found in other regions.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:10 pm

From post: 169340, Topic: tid=11364, author=Vice wrote:Although the frequency seems a bit high, it could have simply been the capital ship jumping in rather than a jump action on your part. One thought that comes to mind is that because of Tranquil's size and location, the jump point region around it is relatively limited compared to other planetary regions, forcing a narrower scope of arrival points, thus potentially increasing the risk of jump collisions, particularly around the station. So it could, in theory, create a higher risk jump environment than what might typically be found in other regions.

This and a pint of Murphy's Law makes sense, thanks for clarifying.

I'm now back at my (former) own station and have a couple of new questions. Not sure if I should start a new thread for that, the answers are probably very short and easy. If not feel free to shift this conversation to a new thread.

1.) My own station is not anymore mine, apparently my licence has expired. I didn't know this even could happen. Is this normal after a certain interval or is this triggered by other incidents? Also, 'hot-docking' doesn't work anymore here at 'my' station as with other trade stations. On arrival I'm still a bit away from the docking bays and my ship is also not adjusted. Aren't player owned stations not simple trade stations, all the more it's not mine anymore? I'm confused...

2.) Lately something has changed with some of my Navy and Miner contracts. No matter if patrol or escort contracts: Suddenly they are much easier cause there are only 4 enemies now (per Nav point). I'm just curious why: Is it because I'm flying a Starmaster now? Or has it to do with the system reputation shift to fair? I'd guess it's the Starmaster cause flying against 10 or more enemy ships with this flying brick should be considerably harder. But with only 4 enemies I suddenly can take escort jobs with ease at which I sucked badly before.

Post by **Vice** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:15 pm

1 - It shouldn't normally be the case, unless cancelled directly or perhaps under certain reputation events. If you have the profile saved before you lost the license and after it, I'd gladly take a look to try and determine what may have happened.

2 - It's likely that you have been in the process of reducing the number of hostiles in that area (as your reputation shifted from moderate to fair), so there are simply less of them that need attacking/removing. As the threat reduces, so does the number of ships of that faction being present.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:47 pm

Thanks in advance and I will do my best with finding that file, though give me some time please. I'm saving often and in new slots and since I wasn't working for my station for a time, I need to go back to several profiles while checking each with docking at my station. Fortunately it was in Pearl most of the time and I got the mantis drive...

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:55 am

From post: 169341, Topic: tid=11364, author=picommander wrote:
From post: 169340, Topic: tid=11364, author=Vice wrote:Although the frequency seems a bit high, it could have simply been the capital ship jumping in rather than a jump action on your part. One thought that comes to mind is that because of Tranquil's size and location, the jump point region around it is relatively limited compared to other planetary regions, forcing a narrower scope of arrival points, thus potentially increasing the risk of jump collisions, particularly around the station. So it could, in theory, create a higher risk jump environment than what might typically be found in other regions.
This and a pint of Murphy's Law makes sense, thanks for clarifying.
I'm now back at my (former) own station and have a couple of new questions. Not sure if I should start a new thread for that, the answers are probably very short and easy. If not feel free to shift this conversation to a new thread.

1.) My own station is not anymore mine, apparently my licence has expired. I didn't know this even could happen. Is this normal after a certain interval or is this triggered by other incidents? Also, 'hot-docking' doesn't work anymore here at 'my' station as with other trade stations. On arrival I'm still a bit away from the docking bays and my ship is also not adjusted. Aren't player owned stations not simple trade stations, all the more it's not mine anymore? I'm confused...

2.) Lately something has changed with some of my Navy and Miner contracts. No matter if patrol or escort contracts: Suddenly they are much easier cause there are only 4 enemies now (per Nav point). I'm just curious why: Is it because I'm flying a Starmaster now? Or has it to do with the system reputation shift to fair? I'd guess it's the Starmaster cause flying against 10 or more enemy ships with this flying brick should be considerably harder. But with only 4 enemies I suddenly can take escort jobs with ease at which I sucked badly before.

Reference #1
I had this happen to me in Pearl and I think I know why - although I'm not sure if it's normal or not. Vice will have to answer that.
I had built a Station (named New Sayers) and had the license and made some runs from there & Port Oasis to Pearl Hidden.
At certain times I would Quick Save for safety. All was fine.
But at some point (I don't remember the reasons) I needed to exit the game (I also don't remember if it was a complete exit or just to the main menu or why - sorry) but although I had done Quick Saves, when I exited I Dit NOT choose Save - just Exit without Saving (cause I figured Quicksave was enough).
Well when I came back in the game and docked at New Sayers I no longer had a station license and I was baffled - but I just said heck with the and paid for aq new license (which cost a heck of a bundle).

So if that's not normal then I guess Vice need to look into it.
If it is normal then I guess one mush always be sure to SAVE on Exit if one has been building stations so as not to lose the station license since Quicksave didn't save it.

I was under the impression Quicksave was the same as if you did Save on Exit.

Paul

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:20 am

That is very interesting since it happened in the same system. I also remember a heavy game crash on my first attempts to find the hidden planet. I assumed that a crash surely won't trigger an autosave and so I didn't care, but all I'm meanwhile pretty sure about is that the license loss must have occurred while I was away from my own station. Vice already got the relevant files and also fixed my current profile. I'll keep an eye on that station in case it happens again. Looks like a tricky bug, not quite easy to track down.

Noesis · Post by **Noesis** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:28 pm

Figured I'd chime in here as I've also had a case of the revoked station license issue. Unfortunately it was a while ago so I can't provide a save where it was still in place.

It was again a custom station in Pearl and when it first happened I thought I must have inadvertently clicked on the cancel button, so bought it again. Curiously I have another station in the same sector as the pearl hidden planet and this station retained it's license. (Actually the first station is technically in Arvoch Prime as it's a couple of sectors north of Oasis). Anyway since that time the licences in both these stations have been lost (they're the only two stations I've built btw).

Also as a side note, the stations themselves still allow me to dock for free, as opposed to the other stations/cities in Pearl (which charge a docking fee most the time), it's purely the licences have been cancelled just I didn't cancel them. I also increased my overall reputation in pearl to moderate, in case that is perhaps part of it.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:53 pm

It's almost impossible to inadvertently cancel your license. If you press the cancel button a confirmation window pops up. I was also about to ignore the loss since I don't need to pay any docking fees anymore in Pearl (system rep fair). Now that I read yours and Paul's report and than my mysterious system reputation drop over 2 stages I start to smell something fishy going on in Pearl. Maybe more reports about strange incidents in Pearl come in, preferably with the relevant save files? I for one will stay in Pearl for a while (at least until system is 'good') and from now on watching carefully what's going on here (I'm a passionate bug hunter and this one seems a worthy prey

).

Post by **Marvin** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:26 pm

In which sector has this happened and was it in SP or MP?

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:54 pm

If you refer to the crash it happened somewhere on the travel from Pearl to the hidden planet. I was on a long travel with autopilot and so I can't give a sector of course (need to close the game by task-manager). I told Vice the circumstances that I can still remember and also why I didn't announce the crash: Cause I have no evidence or a file to investigate. Sorry, bad luck.

It was in SP btw.

[Edited on 28-4-2014 by picommander]

Capt_Caveman · Post by **Capt_Caveman** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:48 pm

iirc, when you save a profile to a different player slot, the station licence does not get duplicated.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:14 pm

From post: 169378, Topic: tid=11364, author=Capt_Caveman wrote:iirc, when you save a profile to a different player slot, the station licence does not get duplicated.

Definitely not true, check it out! And good so, that would be a real mess IMO. All those 100 profile slots would be a massive waste then. Also, even changing your pilot's name doesn't (and shouldn't) make you lose your license. I checked both with my own custom station but I would assume it's the same for all stations where you hold a license.

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:16 am

From post: 169384, Topic: tid=11364, author=picommander wrote:
From post: 169378, Topic: tid=11364, author=Capt_Caveman wrote:iirc, when you save a profile to a different player slot, the station licence does not get duplicated.
Definitely not true, check it out! And good so, that would be a real mess IMO. All those 100 profile slots would be a massive waste then. Also, even changing your pilot's name doesn't (and shouldn't) make you lose your license. I checked both with my own custom station but I would assume it's the same for all stations where you hold a license.

Amen to that.

Post by **Marvin** » Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:56 am

True, a profile* you use or clone after building a station should retain the license. But, if you start a new profile from scratch or clone a profile** from one created prior to building a trade station, you won't get the license. But the station will still be where you built it using the other profile (Profile A) .

* .... Call this Profile A.
** .. Call these Profile B.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:09 am

Pretty obvious, isn't it? What's not so obvious and surprising to me is the last part of your statement. I wonder where this information (about the existence of the station) is stored then. Can hardly be in a pilot.sw file then. At least I have a hard time to imagine how this 'translation' to the new file would work: Imagine the case with the new profile from scratch. How does the program know from what file it should inherit certain content?
Edit:
Or are you talking about MP and it's stored on the server? That would make sense of course.

[Edited on 29-4-2014 by picommander]

Post by **Marvin** » Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:12 pm

I'm talking about MP. I only play SP to test a quest mod and have other things on my mind. If a station doesn't show up with a new profile in SP, I just build one.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:22 pm

So could we agree that I'm almost always play SP? MP just out of curiosity and to figure how the (mainly reputation-) transfer works. I think I got it now, actually really not that complicated, though I understood nothing before from reading and hints. I guess I have a serious language barrier problem here (at which point I regret that I was such a lazy bugger at school). Or could we talk German please?

p.s. going MP actually makes sense to me now, since local faction reputation is carried over but (fortunately) there is no connection at all between MP and SP overall reputation levels. So on my way towards a system reputation shift to 'good' for Pearl (in SP of course, system rep in MP is always fixed, do I have this right?) there are a lot more fishes to fish in a hostile than in a fair system. Feels like a shark in a shoal of fish now. Yum!

Post by **Marvin** » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:09 pm

Normally, the Fair and Moderate systems offer the greatest variety of contracts ... due to the fact your reputation (and the star system as a whole) is good with some factions and bad with others. Fewer hostile elements inhabit Fair systems, which is why, in most "kill" contracts, you'll only meet up with four enemy ships ... while, in Moderate systems, the number of hostile elements is greater (usually around eight). As far as meeting up with random hostile* ships, even in MP it should lessen as your faction reputation increases.

*

Meaning Navy, miners and energy ... the kind you don't want to engage if you can at all help it.