Factions

[Nigel_Strange]

After all this time, I am still a little puzzled by the factions and how they work in the game.

For example, I might be in a moderately hostile zone. The Navy are sometimes red, as are the Rebels and Guild.

However, when I show up, I could swear that the Navy, Rebels and Guild, form a joint coalition to kill me. They should be fighting one another, but they are more interested in me, a disinterested 3rd party.

I am interested in improving the the factions system somehow. I understand that Vice has it set up the way it is for a reason, but I just don't fathom it.

I think, for example, that if the Navy is hostile, then all Navy should be hostile, and the relative percentages of hostility should indicate the aggressiveness of their hostility, for example, how close you are before they attack.

If you succeed in getting them to 50% like you, or higher, and they turn from red to yellow, then they should all turn from red to yellow, meaning that they generally won't attack you unless you do something they don't like (such as attack them).

[PaulB]

After all this time, I am still a little puzzled by the factions and how they work in the game.

For example, I might be in a moderately hostile zone. The Navy are sometimes red, as are the Rebels and Guild.

However, when I show up, I could swear that the Navy, Rebels and Guild, form a joint coalition to kill me. They should be fighting one another, but they are more interested in me, a disinterested 3rd party.

I am interested in improving the the factions system somehow. I understand that Vice has it set up the way it is for a reason, but I just don't fathom it.

I think, for example, that if the Navy is hostile, then all Navy should be hostile, and the relative percentages of hostility should indicate the aggressiveness of their hostility, for example, how close you are before they attack.

If you succeed in getting them to 50% like you, or higher, and they turn from red to yellow, then they should all turn from red to yellow, meaning that they generally won't attack you unless you do something they don't like (such as attack them).

This is an email response from Vice and how he explained some of it to me. His reply is 1st and my original questions are last.
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SW3DG
Apr 1

To

Paul Barrow

Hi Paul,

Answers below:

"So the Mercenary - being Alliance - will see RED Navy (& Energy) in varying degrees depending on the System he's in. Buy how am I meant to deal with them and NOT have my Navy & Energy % ratings and overall rating in News lowered? - at least in Good and Fair areas that I return to."

Simplest way is to not attack those ships in Good and Fair areas you return to. Good systems generally won't have any threatening Navy and Energy ships in them anyway, Fair will have few, so it's an easy measure to take.

"Should I try to avoid shooting RED Navy and Energy and Miners anywhere outside of Sapphire."

No, you're free to engage any ship at any time outside of regions you do not want impacted. The Navy and Energy ships in Olympus for example are unique to Olympus (much like the Japanese Navy in WWII was different from the US Navy). So you are free to engage such hostile ships in self-defense, to complete contracts, as an ambush, or for other reasons outside of a region you want to preserve.

"As an example, in Lost Rucker I saw a few mostly Red Rebels while docked at Novachron station but when I was landing on planet Rucker B (is that the name?) there was a Red Navy ship in orbit.
I didn't take any action against any of them and they didn't attack me - but if the goal is to kill Rebels and Guilds to raise my Navy, Energy, and Miners and overall rating I want to be sure I understand how I should deal with Red Navy and Energy in the systems I go to."

Avoidance is good if that's the direction you want to build those reputations in that area. There is certainly no obligation to attack either, plenty of ways to escape and avoid when your situation calls for it. You might even want to consider bribing a few of those ships to leave you alone and build a little reputation with those factions.

"I assume systems like Thuban are a writeoff for attempts at raising Ratings since every time I exit Thuban Gate there is nothing but billions of Red ships in every direction and they all start shooting missiles at me immediately and I skedaddle as fast as I can and try to enable Stealth as soon as my energy is back up from the jump gate. But It's tempting to want to buy some FT's and let them fly."

I know of a few players who've wanted to build a reputation there and did so, but because it is so hostile, you may indeed decide it's best to let it be and let the FT's fly :-)

"So, should I try to avoid them or fight back (if the odds aren't too high)?"

In that example (Thuban) I personally wouldn't hesitate to engage them in combat for some practice, and yes, if the odds aren't too high. Expect them to quickly call in reinforcements though, so keep an escape plan ready.

"Now I think I understand that for a Fair or Moderate system the goal is to kill Rebel & Guild to raise your Navy, Energy, and Miners and overall Ratings?"

If you want to transition your reputation over to a higher, less hostile, standing. Gradually, you will drive away the residual Rebel and Guild forces opposed to the Navy, Energy, and Miner forces and your reputation will improve over time with the latter forces on the positive end of the spectrum, lowering overall hostility in the long term.

"Can you just Do it and improve Rating or must it be done via Contracts? I know you get paid via contracts but what if I don't want to stick around long term doing contracts and lose Rating by leaving too soon?"

You can build it either way, by attacking ships (or bribing them for the other direction) or by completing contracts. Contracts simply give a structured format to the objective of shifting reputations and in many cases, can be somewhat faster in the rate of progression.


From: Paul Barrow
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 8:09 PM
To: sw3dg
Subject: Factions - still confused

Hi,
Sorry to bother you again but I still don't comprehend well how the Mercenary player is mean to deal with (mainly) Navy and Energy factions outside of Sapphire.

I understand the difference between Federation Navy and Alliance Navy (& Energy, aka allies I guess). At best there is an uneasy peace between them, aka Fair systems, and at worst NO peace, aka Thuban and Pearl.

So the Mercenary - being Alliance - will see RED Navy (& Energy) in varying degrees depending on the System he's in. Buy how am I meant to deal with them and NOT have my Navy & Energy % ratings and overall rating in News lowered? - at least in Good and Fair areas that I return to.

In Privateer Navy is Navy in every Quadrant and Militia is equiv to local cops and the rule is don't accidentally or intentionally shoot Navy or Militia or Guild ships or get caught carrying contraband - aka - be on the good side of the law. Do kill Pirates, Retros, and Kilrathi.

Should I try to avoid shooting RED Navy and Energy and Miners anywhere outside of Sapphire.
As an example, in Lost Rucker I saw a few mostly Red Rebels while docked at Novachron station but when I was landing on planet Rucker B (is that the name?) there was a Red Navy ship in orbit.
I didn't take any action against any of them and they didn't attack me - but if the goal is to kill Rebels and Guilds to raise my Navy, Energy, and Miners and overall rating I want to be sure I understand how I should deal with Red Navy and Energy in the systems I go to.
I assume systems like Thuban are a writeoff for attempts at raising Ratings since every time I exit Thuban Gate there is nothing but billions of Red ships in every direction and they all start shooting missiles at me immediately and I skedaddle as fast as I can and try to enable Stealth as soon as my energy is back up from the jump gate. But It's tempting to want to buy some FT's and let them fly.
So, should I try to avoid them or fight back (if the odds aren't too high)?

Now I think I understand that for a Fair or Moderate system the goal is to kill Rebel & Guild to raise your Navy, Energy, and Miners and overall Ratings?
Can you just Do it and improve Rating or must it be done via Contracts? I know you get paid via contracts but what if I don't want to stick around long term doing contracts and lose Rating by leaving too soon?

Paul


[Edited on 4-21-2014 by PaulB]

[picommander]

[...]

I think, for example, that if the Navy is hostile, then all Navy should be hostile, and the relative percentages of hostility should indicate the aggressiveness of their hostility, for example, how close you are before they attack.

If you succeed in getting them to 50% like you, or higher, and they turn from red to yellow, then they should all turn from red to yellow, meaning that they generally won't attack you unless you do something they don't like (such as attack them).

You are just somewhere "in between" 2 states of faction reputation. I just managed to turn Pearl from hostile to moderate. When I started, most (if not all) Navy ships where red to me. Later somewhere above 60% or 70% most Navy ships where yellow and some where green already. When at 100% you can expect all Navy ships being green for you.

Personally I like it that way, I just don't like hard borders when it comes to numbers in games. Even real Life isn't always that clear when it comes to loyalty and faith. The fuzzy way how faction reputation works in Evochron seems an attempt to make it all look a little more lively. In fact it looks like a randomized probability system to me (all what is actually 'fixed' and 'carved in stone' are the probabilities here).


BTW - if you are going for a system reputation change and haven't done so before: You very likely will be surprised (no details here, might be considered spoilish by some).

I still wonder whether it's possible to change system reputation in MP though. According to the latest information I got and if I didn't got it wrong it's fixed in MP, only faction reputation is alterable here. Whoever knows better please feel free to object.

The only small gripe I have with this system is when it comes to contracts like 'eliminate 12 interceptors' and this contract comes from an orbital station. Personally I would really like to work for these stations, cause this contracts are quite 'colorful' (by any account ). But particularly these kind of missions make it almost mandatory to use the enemy list (toggle with 'g') where you can't see the faction tags. In contracts close to an orbit you always seem to have mixed situations where any faction can appear everywhere (which is part of the fun IMO). Thus if you don't want to accidentally screw reputation towards a certain faction you better do without enemy list view or take contracts at a deep space station. The latter are 'clean' but also a little boring.

[Edited on 21-4-2014 by picommander]

[Marvin]

Like pico said, it's more fun playing this as a real environment (with all its gray areas) as opposed to a data-structured computer game. Which is why there exists the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Evovers ... a thread which explains, in less-than-mechanical terms, the workings of the Evoverse.

For example, to help explain Nigel's confusion (as he posted above), you have:


Factions

As the old saying goes: There are two sides to every story. And the Evoverse is no exception. Its two sides are: (1) the Federation and (2) the Alliance. Without going into great detail (or any detail at all), suffice to say that these two sides have somehow managed to maintain an uneasy detente (see entry on the cease fire agreement), despite numerous provocations.

All the gated star systems (and most of the ungated ones) are governed by one side or the other. Every pilot, military or civilian, is to some degree associated with one of these sides. Like it or not, somewhere in the tangled network of computer data exists a record informing local authorities where each pilot stands. Ergo, pilots are rated* according to their reputation: good, fair, moderate or hostile. Alliance pilots fair badly in Federation-held star systems and Federation pilots fair no better in Alliance space.


[align=center]
Map of the gated systems and their predisposition to Alliance mercenaries[/align]

Admittedly, there is crossover (it's part of the cease fire agreement). Ergo, you will often find Alliance ships (including really big Navy cruisers) transiting Federation space and Federation ships loitering, unmolested, within Alliance space.

Nonetheless, the worse a lone pilot's standing is with local authorities, the greater the likelihood he will be harassed by factions. Navy capital ships can be downright belligerent, attacking without provocation or warning. As can Navy fighters. And, if the Navy is against you, expect other factions to follow suit. Even law-abiding pilots working for Energy or the Miners are likely to take pot-shots at an unsuspecting mercenary. And don't be thinking that lawless factions like Rebels or any of the Guilds will treat a wayward pilot any better. On the contrary. Guilds are nothing more than mobsters, often flying in packs, preying on independent pilots who will never receive (nor should they expect) protection.

While it's nearly impossible for a mercenary to convince the local administration of one's good intentions, it is possible to improve one's reputation among some of the factions. Even the indigenous Navy, supposedly operating under direction of the authorities, will begrudgingly "go easy" on pilots who sign up to assist in defending the star system from marauders, interlopers, carpetbaggers and invaders. Admittedly, the Navy and other lawful factions will still stand aside while a lone mercenary is under attack. But at least they aren't as likely to join in on the side of the attacker(s).


[align=center]
News Console readout displaying faction reputation in one particular star system[/align]

Of course, it's possible for a mercenary to choose the road not normally taken: completing contracts for rogue Guilds or Rebels. Should that be the case, the mercenary will then almost certainly be branded as a bandit and hunted by agents of the current administration. He will find no solace or refuge within the associated star system. Nor will his actions curry favor from the opposing side, be it Federation or Alliance. Because an untrustworthy mercenary can be trusted by no one.


* I bet you thought it was the other way round. (Confusion can be blamed on local authorities, all of whom are hidden behind city walls and trade station energy fields. You hear them. You sometimes read their messages. But they never fly. They hardly ever even take a taxi. They are the Federation. Or the Alliance. And they can make life very, very difficult for anyone born and raised in a foreign star system, be it a system which is far, far away or even one right next door.)

[Marvin]

And this:


Federation-Alliance Cease Fire Agreement

Falling short of an actual treaty (or armistice), the most controversial part of the agreement is where capiltal ships are allowed to enter the opposing government's star systems in support of their own pilots if their own pilots come under attack. Granted, this clause probably sounded good on paper but, as it turns out, it leads to very unhappy circumstances for independent mercenaries. How? Well, it's like this:

A mercenary, intent on increasing his reputation in some unspecified star system, accepts a contract to defend a large transport while it prepares to jump out of the system. In doing so, this mercenary finds it necessary to deal with ("prosecuting") rebels or guilds aligned with the opposing government. It matters not that these rebels or guilds are considered bandits and outcasts by their own people. Blood is thicker than space dust. So, next thing you know, a battleship from the opposing Navy hyperjumps not more than a few kilometers from the mercenary who is fighting desperately to keep the transport safe (or, at the very least, in one piece and capable of eventually jumping away).

In defense of its own factions, the battleship promptly starts firing* on the mercenary. Depending on the mercenary's reputation with the current administration, he either will or will not receive assistence from local factions. If all goes well (meaning, things don't get any worse), the transport will survive the onslaught and jump out of the system on schedule. At which time everybody shakes hands and compliments one another on how well they fought.


[align=center]
Editorial cartoon by T. Nast suggesting that a truce (cease fire) might be a good idea[/align]


* Sometimes poor targeting results in the transport being hit. For which the mercenary usually takes the blame.

[Nigel_Strange]

OK, so maybe pilots are ambivalent, but an IFF system can't read minds.

[Marvin]

... an IFF system can't read minds.

Not yet, anyway. But a cross-checking database shared by both navies and every cooperating planetary system ....

[Nigel_Strange]

So, I'm working Vega right now. It's moderate, and I want it to be a little friendlier. I got 100% Energy and Navy, but those darn Miners are still at 66%. I did a mission for them, and it moved up to 67%. This seems tedious and horrid. I must find and do 33 more missions for the miners (when I can find those missions) and I can't leave the system until I do every last one of them! Those miners won't budge. I wish I could just bribe them all and get it over with. AS it is, I'm losing money on missiles and fuel just killing rebels and guild members for no apparent gain.

[Vice]

I must find and do 33 more missions for the miners (when I can find those missions) and I can't leave the system until I do every last one of them!

Perhaps I can resolve some of your concerns here. First, you do not need to do 33 more missions for the miners. If you have the energy and navy factions that high, you should just be within a few more to switch the reputation, regardless of what the miners are at.

Second, you can leave the system and not lose your place. The ability to store local faction reputations was added to the game a long time ago (with the expansion in December 2012). So as long as you've saved recently in that location, you can leave and come back and pick up where you left off. You can test this by simply flying to another system outside of the current region, then fly back and observe if the faction reputations return to what they were when you left.

[picommander]

That's what also confused me by doing the same at Pearl. All what I knew from documentations and spoilers suggested to need a high (90+) reputation to the 'friendly' fractions. In fact this is only true for Navy and Energy, Miner's requirements are fortunately much lower (somewhere around 50-60% IIRC). Some of the available infos are just outdated and misleading.

[Nigel_Strange]

Thanks for the information. I thought I was marooned in Vega for the foreseeable future.

Nevertheless: Navy and Energy are both at 100%, so I wonder when the flip is going to occur.

[Busch]

90%, or thereabouts for each of the Energy/Miners/Navy bloc. And around 10% or so for the Guild/Rebels. If'n yer close, it'll flip soonest.

[Nigel_Strange]

I think I need to kill more rebels. I'm at 9% with the guild. I'm still over 10% with the rebels.

[picommander]

90%, or thereabouts for each of the Energy/Miners/Navy bloc. And around 10% or so for the Guild/Rebels. If'n yer close, it'll flip soonest.

Miners don't need to be that high, everything else is true (though I believe Guild/Rebels need to be <10%). I won't consider Miners at part of a 'block', at least it's not like Energy and Navy where you improve your Energy reputation alone from working for the Navy. They seem to be on their own.

[Edited on 27-4-2014 by picommander]

[Nigel_Strange]

Now I wonder why the system reputation has to "pop" at all.

Seems to me that a reputation should just be graded according to the percentage of likability with the dominant factions, so, for instance:

< 25% = hostile
25%-50% = poor
50%-75% = fair
> 75% = good

This would simplify things tremendously. Instead of having a new level to pop to, you just work on these percentages.

In fact, I think that the whole hostile/poor/fair/good ratings are maybe too broad of generalization, and that you should not necessarily reduce the reputation for a whole system into one word, but rather consider each of the factions independently.

Some systems might be less run by government, and more by guild, in which case, you would do better to have a good reputation with the local guilds. Maybe some systems would be guild run, or rebel systems would be dominated by rebels. Overall system reputation seems like a very broad brush, and the whole "popping" of the reputation seems a bit weird.

Also, each faction should be able to have stations, so that if you are in good with the rebels or the guild, you should be able to land in their stations, even if you have a poor reputation with the navy or the miners.

Asteroid caves would make for good rebel bases

Just some ideas...

[picommander]

Yes I feel the same. It's odd when you lower your reputation to guild or rebels it's not in any form reflected by the contracts you get offered from them. Though in a way it actually already seems the way you wish it is, from a viewpoint of contracts: A formerly 'hostile' system seems always offer a broader variety of contracts from guild and rebels, even when changed to 'good'. Just the presence of random AI pilots will change dramatically.

[Nigel_Strange]

I should thing that guild contracts would be available from the guild stations, rebel contracts from rebel stations, and navy contracts from navy stations (and carriers).

Contracts would be awarded to those who could land there. If they have a shaky reputation, they might not be allowed to land (or be shot at).

[picommander]

Agreed. That could do a lot towards more diversity. Would also make some interesting RP-ideas possible for players both SP and MP.

[_-Caleb-_]

I should thing that guild contracts would be available from the guild stations, rebel contracts from rebel stations, and navy contracts from navy stations (and carriers).

Contracts would be awarded to those who could land there. If they have a shaky reputation, they might not be allowed to land (or be shot at).

This don't have sense Nig.

If you have the 100% with navy, for example, and 2% with Guild in one system... the system is Navy's friendly. But if you don't have guild contracts, how can you increase the guild %?

I don't understand :S

[Nigel_Strange]

If you have 2% with guild, it sounds like they know you. You did something to irritate them. They want you dead. Perhaps you called one of them Nig.

I would say that in most systems you would have a middle reputation until they get to know you. Working up from "hostile" should be difficult, as it is with normal human relations. If people want you dead, you're not going to get a job offer, and you're not going to ingratiate yourself with them. How would you become the friend of your enemies in real life? Not likely, is it? Unless they don't know you.

Oh, there might be ways...Bribe. Kill guild enemies. Blow up Mining station...You'd have to prove yourself, but it would be hard. You could go to the guild station and pay the docking fee (how much you got?). Once in, you might do a contract, but with a low reputation, you might get a delivery contract or something low-level.

I also think that failing a mission should lower your reputation. If you fail a job for the guild, they might rough you up a bit.

[_-Caleb-_]

If you have 2% with guild, it sounds like they know you. You did something to irritate them. They want you dead. Perhaps you called one of them Nig.

I would say that in most systems you would have a middle reputation until they get to know you. Working up from "hostile" should be difficult, as it is with normal human relations. If people want you dead, you're not going to get a job offer, and you're not going to ingratiate yourself with them. How would you become the friend of your enemies in real life? Not likely, is it? Unless they don't know you.

Oh, there might be ways...Bribe. Kill guild enemies. Blow up Mining station...You'd have to prove yourself, but it would be hard. You could go to the guild station and pay the docking fee (how much you got?). Once in, you might do a contract, but with a low reputation, you might get a delivery contract or something low-level.

I also think that failing a mission should lower your reputation. If you fail a job for the guild, they might rough you up a bit.

Idk, sounds good, but honestly, I prefer the current system, i made contracts for the highest bidder, im a mercenary

EDIT: nig is an insult? O_o

[Edited on 9-5-2014 by AdamSelene]

[picommander]

I also think that failing a mission should lower your reputation. If you fail a job for the guild, they might rough you up a bit.

As far as I know this is already the case. But with the current system most players would just reload and so it's pretty much moot. With 'most players' I include myself. Though I would appreciate a harsher environment I usually hate shooting in my own knee: Design flaws need to be abused until they are finally removed.

[Marvin]

There are systems which are run by rebels and guilds ... which is why, in Hostile systems, you'll see many more friendly rebel and guild pilots ... and many more hostile Navy pilots. The Faction reputation display allows you to determine how you stand with each faction. And there is at least one asteroid cave run by rebels.

[Marvin]

P.S. And, if you fail to complete contracts, your crew will become disgusted with your performance and, if you fail too often, they will jump ship.

[picommander]

P.S. And, if you fail to complete contracts, your crew will become disgusted with your performance and, if you fail too often, they will jump ship.

As I said: Not if you reload your last saved game before your fail. That's why I say failures are meaningless. Unless you except your fail of course but that would feel like shooting in your own knee.