Can't fall in love with EM's radar

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:45 pm

After a total playtime of 3 days and 11 hours I still quarrel with EM's radar. Don't get me wrong, it looks stylish, sophisticated and somehow does its job. But if I'd had the choice, Id take the ancient C64 ELITE radar at any time and bet I'd do a lot better with. My worries are mainly about the missing distance indicator (unless I again overlooked something). Why on earth do we have a 3D radar if it doesn't show the distance to an object? No matter if that box is right in front of your nose or 1000m away, the radar always shows the same purple dot on the outer rim of the radar bubble. Why? That's as counter-intuitive as possible! But that is just my 2c and humble opinion, hope you all bear with me as I'm still a noob.

While looking for more infos about this radar I came across this discussion thread about radars in general:

About Radar Implementation

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:15 pm

The 'G' Key will put up a master list of the ships closest to you on your right-side MFD display. Cycling through with 'G' gives a 'master list' an individual target info screen (default), and a blank screen which prevents accidental mdts lock, missile firing upon friendly ships (basically a safety mode). For the safety mode, a bracket will still appear on the radar globe to show what you have targeted when to go back to 'weapons hot' mode.

I'm the opposite of you as far as which type of radar I like better, but I do agree that a bit of refinement might be nice to see.

Nigel_Strange · Post by **Nigel_Strange** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:05 pm

The radar mainly tells me the number and direction of hostile ships. I tend to glance at it occasionally if I don't know where the foes are, but since I'm usually the one on the attack, I tend to keep the foes where I can see them.

The other thing I use the radar for is when someone fires a missile at me. I can glance down and instantly see the direction of the missile and then move to shoot it down. In this case, the distance is given by the missile warning klaxon, and I only need to know the direction.

The essential problem is rendering 3d space on a 2d object. Ideally, we'd have 3d goggles on, and the radar would project a 3d image of ships relative to your location and orientation, so that you could see the distance from the center of the sphere as the distance from your ship.

It could still be designed this way, but it would be unreadable in 2d.

Another option would be to have the blip brightness indicate the distance: the brighter the blip, the closer the object.

I did like the Lucas Arts radar when I played X-wing, but it did no better at telling me distance than EMs radar.

I also used the radar in X-BTF, and I found that it worked OK for navigating around buildings, but was useless in combat.

Post by **Marvin** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:18 pm

For distances, I use the HUD. The radar is more of a RHAW scope ... it lets me know if a threat is in the area.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:29 pm

From post: 168773, Topic: tid=11330, author=Marvin wrote: For distances, I use the HUD. The radar is more of a RHAW scope ... it lets me know if a threat is in the area.

Which is a poor statement of a radar that is easily outclassed 3 times of an ancient (8bit!) ELITE radar that looks very basic but provides clearer information of what's going on. Even in it's rough appearance it's fully 3D as well, doesn't look good but works so much better. Just wonder if the current limited radar functionality is intended: It seems impossible to me to see a direct threat on your six from pure radar view. This actually might be intended (and understandable to some degree) and in this case I just have to accept it of course.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:37 pm

From post: 168766, Topic: tid=11330, author=Nigel_Strange wrote: ...
The essential problem is rendering 3d space on a 2d object. Ideally, we'd have 3d goggles on, and the radar would project a 3d image of ships relative to your location and orientation, so that you could see the distance from the center of the sphere as the distance from your ship.

It could still be designed this way, but it would be unreadable in 2d.
...

Nope. You don't seem to be one of the elder Elite veterans then. This ancient radar concept solves this problem. And don't judge it from old screenshots, you just need to get used to it. Then you could see how useful it is, especially in combat.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:49 pm

From post: 168764, Topic: tid=11330, author=Rubber Chicken wrote:The 'G' Key will put up a master list of the ships closest to you on your right-side MFD display. Cycling through with 'G' gives a 'master list' an individual target info screen (default), and a blank screen which prevents accidental mdts lock, missile firing upon friendly ships (basically a safety mode). For the safety mode, a bracket will still appear on the radar globe to show what you have targeted when to go back to 'weapons hot' mode.

I'm the opposite of you as far as which type of radar I like better, but I do agree that a bit of refinement might be nice to see.

I'm using the 'G' list all the times, though these are just numbers. It also has some limit as it doesn't show fractions. I'm currently in the situation where I try to improve my reputation to still hostile miners. No good idea to kill accidentally an unlucky miner that is part of this list. In situations where hostile miners *could* appear this is obviously no option. Also, a number that indicates "close to you" doesn't say anything about the direction relative to your ship.

Post by **Vice** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:53 pm

You are welcome to share your opinions on things you like or don't like, understand or don't understand, just watch the insults you may direct at other members. The 3D radar in this game is directional only, largely to keep the added lines, circles, and other graphics off the display to remove clutter. If keeping track of just a few ships were all that was needed, adding more clutter for distance information might not be a bad idea. But for the potential 12+ ships players will often encounter, a clear line of site for direction (without lines, circles and/or other clutter getting in the way) is the priority in the design. Range details are retrieved on the range display and it provides information a distance indicator on the radar won't anyway, namely the class of ship (which one could argue, is far more important in conjunction with range information). Both are designed to function as intended and provide the linked information they display.

One possible option for the radar would be to simply scale the blips in size based on their range. This would let you quickly gauge which objects are closer or farther away while still providing the 3D directional data intended in the original design. It is something I have considered in the past and would again, depending on level of interest and the degree of usefulness it might have to most players.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:57 pm

Personally I could never get used to 3D radars, in any game. In fact its very rare I actually come across a radar in a game that I can actually jive with on a tactical level.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:13 pm

In Elite I even got used to shot enemies with my backfire weapons by the aid of this radar.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:29 pm

In all its limitations I seem to understand its (EM's radar) fun factor though.

[Edited on 10-4-2014 by picommander]

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:43 pm

I like the idea of the radar - but it cause some issues for me due to my problems with colors and certain shades.
Vice has helped some explaining the CustomKit and I have modified the famous "purple" blip for Containers (and "things") to something I now "know" when I see it and can't mistake it.
At 1st I couldn't even hardly see it.
I also have problems with reds, greens, and yellows (unless they are bright).
I'm not color blind but just have problems with shades.
Also I wish Vice could enlarge the Radar some - it looks like there is room to expand it a bit.
The blips are just too small for me to easily distinguish reds from greens and sometimes greens from yellows.
I've also edited the red, green, yellow radar blips and it's helped a tiny bit but not as much as I was hoping. It might be better if I ever get my new minitower up and running since then I'd be using a 22" widescreen instead of the Laptop 15" or whatever it is. But a lot of the time I'm more comfortable at the laptop.

I think I've got the HUD ship target indicators resolved to my satisfaction colorwise.

As a 3D radar, I think EM's is perhaps more informative that the one in PPG and Vegastrike. In those games I often had a problem telling where something was that was not immediately in front or behind the ship. In EM it's easier to tell.
There's just so much more on EM's HUD to have to keep track of and I don't multitask all that well.

Paul

Post by **Marvin** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:14 pm

IIRC, Elite didn't have the kind of targeting information which is available on the right-hand side console monitor. Nor all the info available on the HUD.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:24 pm

True, but it had the intuitive kind of information that is needed in close combat.

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:37 am

The info on the HUD target icon pretty much gives you what you need for the selected ship, and the right MFD display can give you either more info on individual target or the 9 (10?) closest ships to you. As long as you pay attention to when the little auto-leading circle appears on the target, you know the MDTS system has locked and you're in gun range. There is also a bracket that appears on the on the globe blip of the ship you have targeted.

Personally, I use the right side MFD on master list mode, the HUD target info, and the Padlock Secondary Control, and I'm good to go. I barely look at the globe in combat and prefer to fly 'swivel-head' or 'outside the cockpit' instead.

Post by **DaveK** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:26 am

From post: 168791, Topic: tid=11330, author=picommander wrote:True, but it had the intuitive kind of information that is needed in close combat.

Elite style combat, that is

EM combat seems a bit more sophisticated.

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:55 pm

From post: 168801, Topic: tid=11330, author=DaveK wrote:
Elite style combat, that is EM combat seems a bit more sophisticated.

True story.

The displays might not be as state-of-the-art as the full screen touch-enabled dash panel of a JSF-35 fighter (I hope the rest of it doesn't turn out to be an airborne brick), but they definitely provide the right info at the right time once you learn how to use them.

Also, even though the globe shows the relative direction of the blips to you, and the master list shows the closest targets to you, you'll eventually find that going for the closest target on the list is not always wise. - Especially during combat where you're quite outnumbered. Turn too hard for that target closing on your six instead of staying on the one you can take more-or-less head-on (but is farther away), could result in losing all of your momentum and drift speed leaving you a sitting duck the the enemy to pull the ol' surround-and-pound.

Add "Target Ship in Gunsight", "Nearest Hostile Secondary Control", Next Hostile Secondary Control", and the standard Nearest and Next targeting controls to your main flight scheme, and I'll reiterate, keep your head 'outside-the-cockpit' as much as possible.

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:48 pm

Aye-aye Zaphod! So while your head Nr.1 is 'kept outside the cockpit', Nr.2 gleaning at the numbers on the master list, Nr.3, actually (or maybe/maybe not) puts an eye on the radar globe, Nr.4 is still praising this wonderful o-so-sophisticated radar to someone who is used to get most of all that (except concrete numbers) in one single, yet ancient C64 8-bit radar concept. Good job Zaphod, really convinced now!

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:07 pm

Well, whether or not EM's radar super-efficient, trying to stay 'outside-the-cockpit' as much as possible has been a fundamental of REAL fighter combat ever since WW1. Can't get much more 'ancient' than that. And, as radar a pilot could read for himself was introduced to planes, it was often decided that a R.I.O (a.k.a Radar Intercept Officer, a.k.a. back-seater, a.k.a "Talk to me, Goose.") was a good addition to allow the driver to keep his eyes on the skies.

EM might not be super-realistic, and there's not be a R.I.O seat on the ships, but the concept still applies.

Now If you'll excuse me, I need to get the Heart of Gold to the mechanic. The catalytic converter is belching black smoke and bits of month-old sushi again....

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by Rubber Chicken]

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:10 pm

Hehehe, and say hello to Marvin from me. He shouldn't take it all that seriously.

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:30 pm

Yeah, I was trying to use the Improbability Drive to travel to Mars Colony from Andromeda, pick him up, place a sub-etha net order at the Gorfburger in Wolf Zone, and get the whole trip done in time to complain that the fries weren't fresh when we picked up said order.

Apparently at that level of improbability, wild frat parties on sub-deck C are prone to breaking out. What my calculations didn't account for was the possibility of Japanese Penguins crashing the frat party. Hence, the month-old sushi in the exhaust system.

:P

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:00 pm

Not to mention the raw Chicken I ate last night.
Damn it boosted my jumpdrive😜

[Edited on 2014-4-11 by SeeJay]

picommander · Post by **picommander** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:04 pm

I'm drawing a blanc on that one, lost my babelfish recently.

Post by **DaveK** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:07 pm

From post: 168811, Topic: tid=11330, author=Rubber Chicken wrote: . . . and there's not be a R.I.O seat on the ships, . . . [Edited on 4-11-2014 by Rubber Chicken]

Weapons Officer??

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:46 pm

Perhaps. ^ Wow. I need to proofread better before I post.