New Guy - Couple of Questions

[marlowe221]

I just bought the game yesterday and decided to try out MP from the start. I played for a while on the Ceti Alpha V server last night and met a couple of very friendly and helpful people.

This game is great but I do have a couple of questions.

Trading - I am NOT asking for specific routes here, just trying to understand the concepts. As I understand it, it would be a good idea to buy some goods in a low economy system and take them to a high economy system so as to make a profit. But, as I understand things, prices are higher in high econ systems for both buying and selling so... what do I bring BACK the other way?

Contracts - Do I need to do a few basic ones at first just to get the amounts up or will the go up just by getting further away from the start system? Does my rank influence contract rewards?

Thanks!

[Vice]

Hello and welcome, answers below:

Trading - I am NOT asking for specific routes here, just trying to understand the concepts. As I understand it, it would be a good idea to buy some goods in a low economy system and take them to a high economy system so as to make a profit. But, as I understand things, prices are higher in high econ systems for both buying and selling so... what do I bring BACK the other way?

This can vary by item and location. Some locations pay a higher price for certain items versus others and likewise, some pay much less due to plentiful supply. In addition to general economic conditions, it's important to also consider economy types (indicated by the letter in parenthesis after a planet's name). Using both will help guide for the better trade routes and fine tune the scope of the items for optimal buy and sell points. Using the local market value indicators in the news console will help provide this specific information once you arrive in a new system.

Contracts - Do I need to do a few basic ones at first just to get the amounts up or will the go up just by getting further away from the start system? Does my rank influence contract rewards?

For your first question, you can basically choose your own approach for where you want to complete them. Pay can vary by location, but yes, it's good to run a few basic contracts early on in 'safer' space to learn the mechanisms for completing them and to gain some reputation points plus credits in the process. Then as you feel comfortable, advance on to other systems with more challenging objectives, higher pay, and more options. You'll probably want to balance your contract advancement with your ship upgrades so you don't fly into a region that you might not be ready for.

Yes, your earned rank/reputation level does determine how much you command for your services. You can generally expect better pay as you build your reputation for completing contracts.

[Marvin]

In multiplayer, you can generally get a lot of good advice on how to start out. You can even join a co-op mission to build your cash supply a lot quicker (jump into a veteran's gun turret to gain experience and credits with less chance of getting yourself blown up). Or you can join a clan and, while on line, take advantage of the clan's pay schedule.

[marlowe221]

Thanks for the info guys and thanks for the great game Vice - it's really a work of art.

I should be more specific about what I'm confused about:

Let's say I snag some Plat at the Trade Station above Planet Sapphire where it's likely to be relatively cheap. Now let's say I take it down to Aquila which is a much higher economy (and a Tech economy to boot). Obviously, I'm likely to make money on that run, even figuring in fuel costs and docking fees (not sure if there are any in Aquila, I haven't been there yet).

But this is the point where I am unclear: If stuff is more expensive to buy and sell in Aquila than Sapphire due to overall economic conditions, then it would seem unlikely that I would find anything to buy in Aquila that would sell for a profit on my return to Sapphire.

Is that right? If so, that's totally fine - I just don't want to get frustrated looking for something to take back the other way if there's not anything to take.

Is the trading game designed to take place within systems more than it is between systems (i.e. between different points in the Aquila system as opposed to between Sapphire and Aquila)?

I really like how different planets and systems have different focuses to their economies. But I am scratching my head about a couple of things:

1. I get why plat/diamonds are valuable at a T planet. That makes sense. But what do they need at Agriculture or General planets? Medical supplies maybe?

2. It would seem logical to me that energy commodities would be valuable in almost any other economy type - though perhaps some more than others. Is that right?

3. Is equipment trading better than commodity trading in some places?

Sorry about all the trade related questions - and again, I am not looking for spoilers, just to understand concepts/mechanics - I am a trader/explorer at heart in these kinds of games.

[Vice]

Glad you're enjoying the game. I'll try to answer your questions without revealing spoilers:

But this is the point where I am unclear: If stuff is more expensive to buy and sell in Aquila than Sapphire due to overall economic conditions, then it would seem unlikely that I would find anything to buy in Aquila that would sell for a profit on my return to Sapphire.

Is that right? If so, that's totally fine - I just don't want to get frustrated looking for something to take back the other way if there's not anything to take.

In general, that is correct. The general principle is you want to buy low and sell high (buying in low economy systems and selling in high economy systems). However, there can be some exceptions to this rule, depending on the economy levels of the two systems you are comparing and what the individual item value prices might be between them (for example, two systems that might span a somewhat moderate difference in economy level might provide a reverse buy/sell profit option for a particular item due to the demand in the low economy system and/or the supply in the high economy system).

Is the trading game designed to take place within systems more than it is between systems (i.e. between different points in the Aquila system as opposed to between Sapphire and Aquila)?

It can include both. Specifically, one system may have multiple planets with differing economy types, making short distance trade runs from one to the other pretty feasible for a decent profit. However, larger profits are commonly available with system-to-system trades, coinciding with the higher level of effort and time associated with them (some high end trade and technology levels are in the most dangerous/hostile regions of the game).

1. I get why plat/diamonds are valuable at a T planet. That makes sense. But what do they need at Agriculture or General planets? Medical supplies maybe?

A planet may provide those materials within its terrain, but are not necessarily useful to those economy types for their primary industry, instead being useful for general/decorative/trade purposes.

2. It would seem logical to me that energy commodities would be valuable in almost any other economy type - though perhaps some more than others. Is that right?

Yes. To elaborate with specifics might risk revealing a spoiler. But their value can relate to that economy type (energy suppliers might not be as interest in such items as a system that uses them but produces few of them).

3. Is equipment trading better than commodity trading in some places?

Yes, including specific trade routes you will likely discover. Specific equipment items can offer some of the best margins. However, the risk/effort/time can be higher as well as the initial investment required to acquire such equipment.

[marlowe221]

Thanks! That is very helpful and I think I am getting a decent handle on how the economy works in the game.

It's actually very cleverly designed in such a way as to keep things interesting. Other space games I have played make trading a back-and-forth, ad nausem proposition that (sadly) can get boring quickly. The economy types, plus news cycle variations, and overall economy levels really create some interesting situations.

[PaulB]

Thanks! That is very helpful and I think I am getting a decent handle on how the economy works in the game.

It's actually very cleverly designed in such a way as to keep things interesting. Other space games I have played make trading a back-and-forth, ad nausem proposition that (sadly) can get boring quickly. The economy types, plus news cycle variations, and overall economy levels really create some interesting situations.

I think I know where you are coming from.
In WC Privateer GG - you buy certain items from a station (that are needed on a Planet) and go sell them there - and there are items the planet produces that the Stations need and you buy those and take them back to the stations and you make a profit both directions - and that's pretty well explained by example in the game Docs.
But it's less clear in EM and I'm confused too and (for me at my old age) it's impossible to keep track of the Items in the News console - do they vary from station to station, from station to planet, from planet to planet within a Star system? And then what about from one Star System to the next?
Lord, I have to worry about have I taken some or all of my meds each day - and I have to try and remember commodities when there is so little guide.
Someone created a kind of spreadsheet printout for Privateer GG that had Columns (by Station, Refinery, Agricultural Planet, Pleasure Planet, Industrial Planet, etc etc) of items produced and cost (which varied some) and items bought and shaded by degree of profit. So you had a good idea of what items to buy where and sell where so how to get a handle on establishing trade routes.

So while I don't want everything handed to me on a platter, I would like something more than guessing whether I should buy abc at station A and sell it to planet B and whether planet B will have anything I can buy and sell back to station A.

I mean, trade should not be unidirectional - it should be omnidirectional - and the best I can tell so far is that trade in EM is unidirectional.
Example: one goes to Pearl and buys at Station A and takes to some Hidden Place B for a huge profit and repear ad-infinitum until you are rich. Or a similar situation in System C or System D.
I've not seen any Buy at A and take to B and buy at B and take back to A or to C and buy at C and take to B or to A or where ever and make a profit. Maybe that's all there but there is nothing to really give you the idea that it's so and unless you have an excellent memory for everything you see at every place to go I don't see how you can figure it out without a guide similar to the above PGG example.

I mean - it looks like you buy at Evochron Station (or mine) and go sell at Rivoch Station or Planet for the best profit - but what does poor old Evochron Station or Planet Sapphire get? Nada because apparently they economy on all items is lower than Rivoch. Unidirectional and it doesn't make since - unless I'm missing something.
Of course you can say that you can mine and sell at Evochron or Sapphire which is true - but why would you when you can go to Rivoch?
So either I'm missing something or it's not explained well in the Docs or something. Even a lower economy Star system should have an Omnidirectional trade system between stations/planets and then there should be omnidirectional of at least some items from lower economy Star Systems to higher economy Star Systems.

The Docs do give you some info as to which are the better Systems yo might go to but it seems only in terms of taking trade THERE and not bringing trade from There back or someplace else.

Paul

[marlowe221]

Hi PaulB,

I am by no means an expert in the game's economy but here's how I have been getting along in the game so far:

1. Economy type of a system/planet is very important in determining whether or not you will make a profit. Tech areas love diamonds/platinum. Industrial areas seem to love energy commodities, etc.

2. Economy level of the entire system matters a lot too. Some systems are definitely better for selling than for buying. It does seem that some back-and-forth type routes might be found between two similar economy level systems of different economy types but I haven't had a chance to experiment with that yet - we'll see.

3. I'm learning more and more that the construction stations are your friend. Materials that you buy can be converted into pieces of ship equipment that can sell for quite a bit, even in economies that aren't the highest.

4. It's hurts my trader's heart to fly anywhere empty but EM's method of travel really minimizes the pain. Jumping around is a LOT faster than flying across entire systems in Freelancer, for example. So yeah, I might go somewhere empty but it's at minimal cost and is usually fairly quick once you get the hang of the Nav Map and Jump Drive.

I'm actually enjoying the economic system in this game quite a bit now that I am learning more about it. I find myself always on the lookout for opportunities in this game in a way that I haven't been in other space sims I've played. It has added a lot of variety to a trader's life.

[Marvin]

Some star systems are like San Diego: everything is expensive. But you can buy the same items for much less across the border, in Tijuana. Also, when it comes to items in really short supply, keep an eye out for distress calls ... quite often a planet will find that it has overexploited its natural resources and needs emergency help from a passing mercenary.

[Busch]

Pretty much a given is the different item offerings that are made available at trade stations and military carriers, wherever located. The location of each in a given system, generally sets the 'tone' of the economic climate for several squares (omni-directionally) around a given station. This includes traffic patterns, shipping routes, capital ship refueling, the whole nine yards... It's the overall system economy which sets the 'level' of items offered in that given system as well. Stations that are located peripheral to core system stations, have a slightly different economic situation. If located near a jump gate, the station may 'enjoy' trade bonuses from its proximity to the jump gate, hence a slightly higher economy level. If located out on the fringes of the of the system map, they may have a slightly reduced economy level, compared to the rest of the system, But, will pay premium (for the area) for certain trade commodities and equipment items. I know this isn't detailed in the instructions as may be desired. There are other sources of information about working/flying/playing the Evochron Universe. The EM web site, Universe Information pages, has a further wealth of information, tutorials, and select topic areas covered. Pilot DaveK has published two compendiums of EM Universe information. The Mercenaries Guide (basic science stuff),and the Hint & Tips Guide (spoilers included). Both are available on Pilot SeeJays web site. {See Clan [HB] thread, links are posted in his sig block........ And some of this stuff...ya just haff ta learn on yer own. On-the-job-training, so to speak. .}

[PaulB]

Pretty much a given is the different item offerings that are made available at trade stations and military carriers, wherever located. The location of each in a given system, generally sets the 'tone' of the economic climate for several squares (omni-directionally) around a given station. This includes traffic patterns, shipping routes, capital ship refueling, the whole nine yards... It's the overall system economy which sets the 'level' of items offered in that given system as well. Stations that are located peripheral to core system stations, have a slightly different economic situation. If located near a jump gate, the station may 'enjoy' trade bonuses from its proximity to the jump gate, hence a slightly higher economy level. If located out on the fringes of the of the system map, they may have a slightly reduced economy level, compared to the rest of the system, But, will pay premium (for the area) for certain trade commodities and equipment items. I know this isn't detailed in the instructions as may be desired. There are other sources of information about working/flying/playing the Evochron Universe. The EM web site, Universe Information pages, has a further wealth of information, tutorials, and select topic areas covered. Pilot DaveK has published two compendiums of EM Universe information. The Mercenaries Guide (basic science stuff),and the Hint & Tips Guide (spoilers included). Both are available on Pilot SeeJays web site. {See Clan [HB] thread, links are posted in his sig block........ And some of this stuff...ya just haff ta learn on yer own. On-the-job-training, so to speak. .}

That's not what I meant by omnidirectional.
My definition - really equal to the method in Privateer and Vegastrike - you Buy items a Planet needs at any station and and sell them to any planet (that's not controlled by Pirates or rebels etc) and you buy what the Planet manufactures that the Stations need and can't produce themselves and take it to any station and sell it to them. That's omnidirectional - not limited to an immediate vicinity. The equivalent of Global trade.

A good example: no one talks about going to Pearl and buying stuff to bring back to Sapphire to sell. I'm not suggesing there should be a market for FT's in Sapphire - but if someone wanted to make Sapphire a home base there should be some commodity(s) in Pearl or where ever that would be profitable to bring back to Sapphire so you make money going both ways and it shouldn't totally depend on how good your memory is or how much paper you have to use to try and make notes of every place you visit.
Of course it would be great if everyone had a photographic memory.

Paul

[Edited on 4-2-2014 by PaulB]

[Marvin]

The game has a built-in note-taker ... it automatically logs your transactions. I've posted screenshots of it elsewhere ... the last time somebody asked. Anyway, I think what you're looking for is the type of trade mechanism found in the X series.

[Marvin]

How do you keep track of prices?

This way: Press F3 -> Select Flight/Event Log -> and you will see a list of transactions, dates, items, location coordinates and names. If you can't read the entire line, click on it and the line will be displayed in Chat.

[img=560x470]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/p ... 0a16f6.png[/img]

[Busch]

Well, you can buy stuff in Pearl to sell in Sapphire, but you'll probably take a loss on the profit margins, compared to almost anywhere else. In comparing systems, Sapphire is THE most basic system in all of Evochron, inclusive of the economy and all goods available to the tyro Pilot. The reasons for this status are many and varied. And, hinge primarily upon giving the new pilot a leg up, rather than a shot in the foot. There are micro-economies, as you suggest Paul. Check out the difference in costs, bringing commodities and equipment up out of a gravity well. Planet-to-Station prices aren't much to begin with, with profits that may be enough to cover the fuel toll. But, it can be done. Same with trading internally, within a given system. Buy a station license at one station. Do all of your purchasing at that station. Sell items at one or two of the adjacent/peripheral trade stations. Profits can be garnered. There are numerous and sundry trade routes one may undertake. Discovering them is only part of the fun of flying the Evo-verse. They don't all have to include your favorite hidden planet or system. There are some really sweet trade runs hiding in plain sight within the known quadrant. [hint: when in Sapphire, buy AM and FC's. Roll-over the AM - sell FC's anywhere else you can make the most on the exchange. Some travel may be required. Profit margin: 2X minimum, more likely slightly better than 3X-4X the purchase prices of either, depending upon location where sold.]

[Marvin]

Buy a station license at one station. Do all of your purchasing at that station. Sell items at one or two of the adjacent/peripheral trade stations. Profits can be garnered.

Unlike profits derived elsewhere, the profits resulting from that kind of trade are mostly due to the discount you receive from any station where you hold a license.

[PaulB]

Buy a station license at one station. Do all of your purchasing at that station. Sell items at one or two of the adjacent/peripheral trade stations. Profits can be garnered.

Unlike profits derived elsewhere, the profits resulting from that kind of trade are mostly due to the discount you receive from any station where you hold a license.

What I always wanted in Privateer and wish I had it here also was what I had to do manually in a text editor and Calculator.
Example
Trade Log:
Location--------Start Credits---Equipment----Cargo-------Balance
Station Abc:---- 4000000------ -25000------- -25000---- 3990000
Planet Def:----- 3990000----------------------- 50000----- 3995000
___"___"_----- 3995000---------------------- -2000000-- 1995000
Station Ghi:-----1995000----------------------- 6000000 --7995000
etc, etc.

A running account of equipment (ammo, fuel, etc) and cargo bought and sold at each stop.

That way you would more quickly be able to plan trade routes plus not have to use external programs to do the accounting part.

Paul

[Edited on 4-3-2014 by PaulB]

[SeeJay]

That could easily be setup in Excel/Open Office.

I know it's external and not in-game method, but at least you'll get rid of the calculator and you'll also have a lot more options
to add if you need to.

[Marvin]

Try the Flight/Event Log discussed above.

[DaveK]

Someone created a kind of spreadsheet printout for Privateer GG that had Columns (by Station, Refinery, Agricultural Planet, Pleasure Planet, Industrial Planet, etc etc) of items produced and cost (which varied some) and items bought and shaded by degree of profit. So you had a good idea of what items to buy where and sell where so how to get a handle on establishing trade routes.

So while I don't want everything handed to me on a platter, I would like something more than guessing whether I should buy abc at station A and sell it to planet B and whether planet B will have anything I can buy and sell back to station A.
Paul

I created my own tables of where to find the rarer and hence more profitable items (It's in the Hints&Tips Guide) I also created a table of average prices (they do vary) of the better trade items (IMHO) in different systems and different parts of the systems

I'm nearly finished creating a table of systems where it would be good to do your Weapon Lab research - systems where you can easily get the four raw materials you need. Also included for those who want to do the rescue missions are the systems where you can find the basic 'take items A to system X to sort out pestilence/famine/drought etc'. You can easily fill your cargo bays with the basic stuff that's needed and then hotfoot it to the rescue without fretting about mining 25 units of water/oxygen or finding food/medical supplies etc

I did this because I think it's part of the fun of the game (as you said earlier - you don't want everything handed to you on the proverbial platter!)

Soooo . . . you could decide what 'vital info' is missing and create it yourself - you get to see some amazing sights as you cruise the Evoverse collecting data

Finally, once you get a handle on how the trading systems work you can create your own trade route (yep - create not discover) and let your friends know where it is (an uncharted system is a good start!) The activity of creation is a fun occupation in it's own right - you could even post a treasure hunt on the forum with clues in various systems - the successful explorer's prize ids a decent trade route in a friendly system!

[DaveK]

That could easily be setup in Excel/Open Office.

I know it's external and not in-game method, but at least you'll get rid of the calculator and you'll also have a lot more options
to add if you need to.

My preferred method is to create a pro forma in Word, print it, fill it in whilst playing and then transfer it back to a file version if it's likely to be of long term use / interest / stable

[marlowe221]

Marvin - Thanks for the tip on the flight log, I didn't realize it could do that.


I've been having fun using the construction stations. Last night I mined 5 cargo holds worth of Metal Alloy, turned them into... something... (I forgot) and sold them for 230K each in Alpha Centauri. It's probably not the most profitable run in the game but it was a nice kick for someone 4 days into the game!

Edit: The above was more profitable than 5 cargo holds full of Plat would have sold for at the same location.

[Edited on 4-3-2014 by marlowe221]

[Marvin]

The profit from each run will increase as your bank account increases ... allowing you to buy bigger ships with eight hard points, a full compliment of unused equipment slots and five cargo bays ... then filling them with more expensive items ... selling them for bigger profits.