Storing Ships in Hangars

[PaulB]

Is there no way to store a ship and swap with each one retaining it's own configuration (crew, Equip, Hardpoints, etc)??

I had to save my startmaster in a 2nd station (to ensure - I hope) not to lose it's 4 crew members and stuff - I'm guessing that's not going to be the case since I have to get it out of storage someway (swapping another ship which may not have 4 crew slots).

Then take the Duplicate starmaster and Dismiss the Crew member I was willing to lose - though I had assumed the Mammath would have stored it's own crew members.

Man this is NOT the way ship storage and swapping should work. It should swap one independent complete ship for another independent complete ship.
That's how every other space sim I've seen that has that feature works.

(If I were wealthy) I would espect to go to my car garage and swap my 6-cylinder car with all it's accessories for my 8-cylinder SUV with all it's accessories.

Well at least I saved a backup pilot profile of the original - anticipating problems. I see no point of even having ship storage under the circumstances.

The Idea was to have one profile with it's up-to-date Ratings and the ability to choose a different configured ship for different operations.

Paul

[Marvin]

If you were a USAF pilot swapping a C-5 for an F-16, you wouldn't be able to take your crew with you. And, should you decide to return to the C-5, the crew wouldn't still be waiting around, doing nothing. At least in EM, you can swap one civvy frame for another and (I think) keep your crew ... as long as your new ship has enough seats.

[PaulB]

Your 1st sentence is exactly my point - more or less.
(1) my stored Mammoth had 3 crew (slots) when I stored it. Since they are getting a wage they sould sit and mind the ship.
(2) the starmaster has 4 crew so - if I want to swap - it should swap the whole ship with it's crew and their experience/loyalty for the Mammoth which would retain it's crew with the experience/loyalty it had at the time of storage.

I'm not military so don't know how things work today - but in WWII planes had their crew unless a member was transferred.
If a Pilot went to another plane he got the crew of that plane and it's equipment - they certainly didn't swap crew and equipment between planes unless it was repair related.
Same thing in the Navy - you change ships and take the crew and equip that's on that ship - the skipper doesn't take portions of his crew from one ship to another or equipment.
Each ship is a unique and seperate entity and you are just swapping command.

Paul

[DaveK]

Is there no way to store a ship and swap with each one retaining it's own configuration (crew, Equip, Hardpoints, etc)??

I had to save my startmaster in a 2nd station (to ensure - I hope) not to lose it's 4 crew members and stuff - I'm guessing that's not going to be the case since I have to get it out of storage someway (swapping another ship which may not have 4 crew slots).

Then take the Duplicate starmaster and Dismiss the Crew member I was willing to lose - though I had assumed the Mammath would have stored it's own crew members.

Man this is NOT the way ship storage and swapping should work. It should swap one independent complete ship for another independent complete ship.
That's how every other space sim I've seen that has that feature works.

(If I were wealthy) I would espect to go to my car garage and swap my 6-cylinder car with all it's accessories for my 8-cylinder SUV with all it's accessories.

Well at least I saved a backup pilot profile of the original - anticipating problems. I see no point of even having ship storage under the circumstances.

The Idea was to have one profile with it's up-to-date Ratings and the ability to choose a different configured ship for different operations.

Paul

If I read you correctly the main problem you have is with your crew. If you have to sell equipment when moving to a smaller frame then you can always buy it back when you trade back up - or store the extra equipment in a hangar.

I can see where you are coming from, but your crew are not military types who are assigned to posts - they are indie mercs like you. Whilst they are 'in storage' they are just sitting around - not good for their CV and career development - there's no guarantee that you will come back after all. Nor are the 'accessories' or cylinders.

The present system works well enough for me, but I don't bother with crew much. I fly a decent mil ship most of the time but when I'm exploring or doing some heavy trading I swap it out for a Starmaster and then swap back.

If part your wishlist is that a stored ship keeps all of its equipment and you buy a 'clean' frame that you have to re-equip from scratch then I would support that. It would be cool to have a deep space exploration ship, a local science/exploration ship, a decent military ship, a zippy racing frame and a general purpose trade ship without worrying about different numbers of equipment points or having to have five bank accounts. At the moment there are hard choices to be made - not necessarily a bad thing - it would be easier to have unlimited equipment slots but it's probably more fun having to balance choices to get the best ship you can.

Its probably not what you ideally want but you could store a mil profile for that sort of activity and a civvy profile for activities where you require a crew, cargo space and such.

Anyway, although it doesn't work for you and it does for me it wouldn't surprise me that if enough players request that their crew go on paid shore leave for the duration then Vice would change Evochron employment laws to 'make it so'

[Vice]

This was one of the older/earlier design principles of the game (dating back over 5 years now), namely that crew would be, in a sense, 'perishable', fairly independent, and not a static attribute. Here are a few excerpts from past discussions on this (both during the design phase when discussions/debates were going on with it and after implementation):

Crew dismissal for hangars: ...they would likely want to continue working and wouldn't be willing to just sit around until you got back. This would also help avoid having numerous crew for several civilian ships scattered around doing nothing and would keep the player active in managing/hiring a crew (rather than getting to a point where they're not even a gameplay consideration/factor any more once they reach a certain level).

Crew members would likely want to keep doing what they do rather than just lazily sitting around waiting to be called back, so that system has kind of been designed to be fluid and have events that cause crew members to leave and need to be replaced, including leaving at a dock and being dismissed when a ship is deactivated and placed in a hangar.

The idea for ships is that the useful parts of it are kept active by transferring all possible items as needed without the additional expense of having to buy replacement components and weapons and not leaving those functional components in storage doing nothing. However, you can still manually do this if you want to for at least 5 components with a civilian ship. Simply uninstall the equipment and/or weapons you want from your ship before you park it and place them in the cargo bay. Once in the hangar, transfer the items from your cargo bay to your hangar, then store the ship. The ship will be duplicated and you can then buy and install replacement items as desired to the new ship. The ship and its items will then remain stored for use in the future and you can do the same thing next time you want to activate a ship by using the cargo transfer system and installation after you swap ships. This obviously is designed to work with civilian ships rather than military, which have other additional compromises associated with them for their limited role use, but it works pretty well if you want to keep different weapon and equipment loadouts for different ships.

[PaulB]

This was one of the older/earlier design principles of the game (dating back over 5 years now), namely that crew would be, in a sense, 'perishable', fairly independent, and not a static attribute. Here are a few excerpts from past discussions on this (both during the design phase when discussions/debates were going on with it and after implementation):

Crew dismissal for hangars: ...they would likely want to continue working and wouldn't be willing to just sit around until you got back. This would also help avoid having numerous crew for several civilian ships scattered around doing nothing and would keep the player active in managing/hiring a crew (rather than getting to a point where they're not even a gameplay consideration/factor any more once they reach a certain level).

Crew members would likely want to keep doing what they do rather than just lazily sitting around waiting to be called back, so that system has kind of been designed to be fluid and have events that cause crew members to leave and need to be replaced, including leaving at a dock and being dismissed when a ship is deactivated and placed in a hangar.

The idea for ships is that the useful parts of it are kept active by transferring all possible items as needed without the additional expense of having to buy replacement components and weapons and not leaving those functional components in storage doing nothing. However, you can still manually do this if you want to for at least 5 components with a civilian ship. Simply uninstall the equipment and/or weapons you want from your ship before you park it and place them in the cargo bay. Once in the hangar, transfer the items from your cargo bay to your hangar, then store the ship. The ship will be duplicated and you can then buy and install replacement items as desired to the new ship. The ship and its items will then remain stored for use in the future and you can do the same thing next time you want to activate a ship by using the cargo transfer system and installation after you swap ships. This obviously is designed to work with civilian ships rather than military, which have other additional compromises associated with them for their limited role use, but it works pretty well if you want to keep different weapon and equipment loadouts for different ships.

Here's my viewpoint and gripe in, I hope, relevant detail and more eloquently expressed (I'm not good at descriptions and speeches).

(1) I spend hours upon hours flying around doing the Station Contracts, Mining, Trading, etc., so i can upgrade my Ship from a Sentinel to a Mammoth to a Starmaster.

I want to keep the Starmaster because it's the only frame I can have the least amount of compromise with in terms of Equipment slots, configuration (wings vs Engine vs Shields, etc), Hardpoints, and Crew I want.

(2) I spent the above hours upon hours also getting my 4 crew members up to 100% Ability and Loyalty and i'm paying them handsome fees for it and I'm trying to do things to make money to keep paying them and I'm not going to just dismiss them at a whim - that's my loyalty to them.

(3) I want to find better Systems to Trade, Expand, become more Profitable for myself and my crew I worked so hard to train and keep. To do this I want a more agile Ship that is more combat capable than the Starmaster which is going to mean a lot of sacrifices and compromises in equipment, configuration, and crew.

(From my point of view), on the Starmaster I want a Navigator, Engineer, Sci Ops, and Weapons officer - all for their stated purpose in the game docs. The have all been quite useful.
On the combat (but also some trading in between) I want a Navigator, Engineer, and Weapons officer.

I want to be able to swap ships (each intact) to do the tast I configure each ship for.
I don't what to have to spend more hours getting a NEW Sci Ops up to 100% Ability/Loyalty each time I swap ships.
I don't want to have to worry about losing something in an equipment slot or hardpoint slot because the Starmast has all 8 of each and my "combat" ship will most likely NOT have all 8 of each when I swap back and forth.
(Sorry but I'm 62 years old and have always had a weak memory and it's certainly not getting better with age)
And storing items in the hangar is not all that muc of a solution since you are limited to 5 storage slots. As an example - I currentlt have a Build and Deploy Constructors and a Stealth Generator stored in the hangar that I have to swap in and out with Cargo scanner/Fuel Converter or other item(s) depending on what I need to do that day. Sure I can use another Station hangar for more storage, but what a run-around.

So, in my opinion, Ships should be swapped intact, crew and all and independent of each other - otherwise I don't see the point of being able to swap at all - it becomes almost useless.

Why should I have to make a long run to Pearl or where ever to replace hard sought equipment because I forgot to store them seperately (or didn't know I could lose them during a ship swap - how many users has this happened to?).

Fortunately, as I was considering making another Run to Pearl to get this other combat Frame, I got to thinking about my Mammoth (in storage) and my Starmaster.
I said to myself: self - your Starmaster has 4 crew slots and your Mammoth only has 3. If you swap the Starmaster for the Mammoth (to take it on the trip to Pearl) - AND - when you get back swap the New ship (which will maybe have 3 crew slots - like the Mammoth - what's going to happen with the Starmaster Crew?? Are it's 4 crew really stored with it and going to return??
I had my doubts (based on all the other compromises one has to make in EM), so, I said: self - we had better test this thoroughly before going to all the trouble.
So, I saved my game in a New profile to have a backup.
Then I swapped my Starmaster for my Mammoth and then swapped the mammoth back for the Starmaster.
Sure enough - my 4th crew member - my Navigator - was gone bye bye.
So, swapping ships for use in different task becomes (for some of us anyway) useless.
The only other solution is to have a separate Pilot profile for each ship to play at different things - but that really sucks too because then you can't expand a common Rating/Reputation and also anything you build using the Build Constructor won't be available to both Profiles so what's the point??? That's useless also.

Just my opinion.
Paul

[Edited on 3-22-2014 by PaulB]

[picommander]

I'm just too fresh in EM to judge about this feature but for now I'm with you Paul. Don't know about you but I'm some sort of old-school role player that doesn't feel comfortable to split his char and go "chizo" via 2 separate profile lines which seems the only solution for now but doesn't solve what you mentioned in your last sentences. On the other hand don't forget that it's no big deal to sell and re-buy ships thanks to the lack of the common NPC's "profit margins". A decent solution for the crew would probably do it for me, maybe some kind of special (expensive!?) accommodations? Or the possibility to store them with all current abilities but you would have to re-hire them to a one-time wage you would usually pay for an officer hired on the open market with that abilities (theoretically, I've yet to see a 100/100 officer to hire)?

[PaulB]

I'm just too fresh in EM to judge about this feature but for now I'm with you Paul. Don't know about you but I'm some sort of old-school role player that doesn't feel comfortable to split his char and go "chizo" via 2 separate profile lines which seems the only solution for now but doesn't solve what you mentioned in your last sentences. On the other hand don't forget that it's no big deal to sell and re-buy ships thanks to the lack of the common NPC's "profit margins". A decent solution for the crew would probably do it for me, maybe some kind of special (expensive!?) accommodations? Or the possibility to store them with all current abilities but you would have to re-hire them to a one-time wage you would usually pay for an officer hired on the open market with that abilities (theoretically, I've yet to see a 100/100 officer to hire)?

But that means (probably) making a trip through one or more Hostile Systems to a destination that has the Frame you want - and you are still going to lost something(s) in the process - probably Crew for one (if you use crew) and suppose for example you have Custom Particle and Beam guns - possibly even Missiles. You have to remember to save those in the hangar 1st - and you may possibly lose valuable equipment too in this process.
Example:
Starmaster: 8 Equip slots: Capacity 22
Mantis drv, Repair C3, Cannon Relay, Cannon Heatsink, Stealth Generator, Shield Battery X5, Deploy Constructor, Tractor Beam

And supposed you want a Venture, Sentinel or Guardian (Agility = 70,58,55 & Capacity = 14,15,18)
Which of those are you willing to leave be behind or have to repurchase when you get the new ship (because there's only 2 or 3 hangar slots due to the custom weapons to store anything)? Some of those things you are going to have to make another trip to Pearl or someplace if you need them.
That's not what I call a game challenge, that's just a PITA when there a Swap Ship feature that should alleviate that necessity it seems to me.

My philosophy is: You have a Base System you are working in and out of and you use the ships in your arsenal at any given hours or days to accomplish your task - and then you may decide it's time to move to a new system to develope there so you take one ship there and set up a Base Station and store it and buy a Talon to go back to the old system to get your other ship (and sell the Talon) and head back to the new Base and repeat if you should have more than 2 ships.
You use the Starmaster to Trade and expand the new System and the other ship to combat an threats (and maybe do a few Trades or Contracts in between fights) until you are ready to do more heavy Trading/Expansion.

That was my plan anyway. I guess not now. I don't want to be a full time fighter pilot so I guess I just try too find more or less peaceful systems to dwell in with the Starmaster since it won't be a big match against a flock of hostiles or powerful Military Frames other than to run and hide.
Now if it had C13 wings and C10 shield and c7-c10 engine and 1200 fuel tank and "more" slots to carry proximity mines and FT's and not have to swap stuff in and out of slots then it could probably stand up to a lot of military type might - but wishful thinking.
Paul

[Iron man]

2 different save, 2 profiles, 2 different ship, 2 different crew that make sence?
That can open a variety of idea

[Marvin]

I guess I just try too find more or less peaceful systems to dwell in with the Starmaster since it won't be a big match against a flock of hostiles or powerful Military Frames other than to run and hide.

I fly a Mammoth. No running and hiding. Granted, with the Talon I use for testing new quests ... sometimes it's necessary to run ... but not when flying the heavies. I gave up on the hangar a long time ago ... Pearl isn't the only system where you can swap out one set of high-tech equipment for another. With a little knowledge of the Evoverse, it only takes a few hyperjumps to reconfigure from a combat Mammoth to an exploration Mammoth ... or back again. Without sacrificing your highly skilled crew.

[DaveK]

Anything you build in MP is stored on the server, so it appears to all players. If it's a trade licence you don't want to lose when swapping profiles then just build a station in each profile (not that expensive) and you'll always have a station with a licence in a system regardless of which profile you log on with.

[DaveK]

A trip through a hostile system isn't hard - just keep the nav map open, then either lock onto the next gate and jump asap or (if you don't know where the gate is) set a bit of space a sector or two away from the gate and jump - you'll be left in peace long enough to get you system exit jump sorted

Docking at a station is a bit more tense since you have to change heading to a gate value before jumping but it's not too hard

[Nigel_Strange]

I use a Starmaster. No crew. When I do military missions, I put the Starmaster in the hanger and jump into an Evoch E. All of the equipment from the Starmaster is transferred to the Evoch (which is a good thing, because you can't always find the equipment that you want on the new frame, so you move it from the old to the new). Military frames have 8 equipment slots, I think, same as the Starmaster.

For me, the systems works fine. I don't use a crew and I don't lose any stuff when I switch frames. Now, if I wanted to go back down to a talon or phoenix, then things might get complicated, but then you also have hangar cargo slots, so you can put cargo in there.

I do not expect crew members to be stored like sacks of rice. You hire a crew and they can desert you whenever they get a better offer. If you do build them up to 100% loyalty and ability, that's great. It takes a long time to do, but even so, do not expect them to volunteer to be frozen in carbonite, waiting eagerly for your return when you get a ship with enough seats.

[PaulB]

I guess I just try too find more or less peaceful systems to dwell in with the Starmaster since it won't be a big match against a flock of hostiles or powerful Military Frames other than to run and hide.

I fly a Mammoth. No running and hiding. Granted, with the Talon I use for testing new quests ... sometimes it's necessary to run ... but not when flying the heavies. I gave up on the hangar a long time ago ... Pearl isn't the only system where you can swap out one set of high-tech equipment for another. With a little knowledge of the Evoverse, it only takes a few hyperjumps to reconfigure from a combat Mammoth to an exploration Mammoth ... or back again. Without sacrificing your highly skilled crew.

it's not so much the Mammoth vs Mammoth swap Marvin - that would be fairly easy.
It's the Starmaster (capacity 22) vs "any other frame" that's the problem.
I decided I like the Starmaster for my General Purpose Trading ship - but trying to set up a more Agile frame below Starmaster (for combat, speed, more competitive against Military frames) that can swap with the Starmaster is virtually impossible because of the vast difference between <20 capacity Frames and the Starmaster's 22. You are going to lose something you don't want to lose (on the Starmaster) when you swap "back" to the Starmaster.
As best as I can tell from use - the Mammoth at agility=45 is NOT more agile than the Starmaster at Agility=40 - that's why I wanted to downgrade the Mammoth to something like a Centurion or Guardian with more agility, faster default speed, etc. - and I can't do it without crippling the Starmaster (yes I can go "TRIP" and buy back what I lose (exceot for Crew which must go through a "long" (umm I'll call it Training) to get him/her/it/them back to 100%/100%.

I'm wonder what would happen if I stored the Starmaster and took the copy to the Carrier and bought that cheap Military Frame (is it the Arrow?)?? Since Military Frames are (as I interpret) not compatible (no crew? and whatever else?) with civvie Frames - I wonder what will happen to the Starmaster equipment? and I'm guessing the crew will ALL go bye bye if what I read in one post (that when you store a ship all crew are "dismissed") is true.

If that doesn't work - and I don't expect it to - I guess I either settle for 2 Pilot profiles with different ships and no common Rating/Reputation which is not desirable to me - or - just stink with one Pilot profile and the Starmaster and live with the Agility limitations and do the best I can - as I said in antoher post - I yes to be able to complete a Timed Race or AI race - even in the old Pilot profile w/Sentinel with Wings C13 and a high level Engine. I either run out of time or out of the tunnel - not that I care a hot about racing - but if I can't complete a race I can't do the Quest - which it might be nice to do at some point - but that's not my main goal.

Paul

[Edited on 3-24-2014 by PaulB]

[Edited on 3-24-2014 by PaulB]

[PaulB]

A trip through a hostile system isn't hard - just keep the nav map open, then either lock onto the next gate and jump asap or (if you don't know where the gate is) set a bit of space a sector or two away from the gate and jump - you'll be left in peace long enough to get you system exit jump sorted

Docking at a station is a bit more tense since you have to change heading to a gate value before jumping but it's not too hard

No DaveK - and with the method I've set up it's easier than average I'd say - but it's still a quite time consuming process that I'd rather not make just to get my Ship back to the condition I had it before a Frame swap.

Paul

[PaulB]

I use a Starmaster. No crew. When I do military missions, I put the Starmaster in the hanger and jump into an Evoch E. All of the equipment from the Starmaster is transferred to the Evoch (which is a good thing, because you can't always find the equipment that you want on the new frame, so you move it from the old to the new). Military frames have 8 equipment slots, I think, same as the Starmaster.

For me, the systems works fine. I don't use a crew and I don't lose any stuff when I switch frames. Now, if I wanted to go back down to a talon or phoenix, then things might get complicated, but then you also have hangar cargo slots, so you can put cargo in there.

I do not expect crew members to be stored like sacks of rice. You hire a crew and they can desert you whenever they get a better offer. If you do build them up to 100% loyalty and ability, that's great. It takes a long time to do, but even so, do not expect them to volunteer to be frozen in carbonite, waiting eagerly for your return when you get a ship with enough seats.

Tne news about a military frame swap is good news at least Nigel - Thanks.
You don't use a crew - that's fine. I hadn't been. But I've since found them very useful. They help the things I've read about that they help. I can't quantify how much - but I need all the help I can get since I've never had as much dexterity and memory retention as I need.

Paul

[DaveK]

A trip through a hostile system isn't hard - just keep the nav map open, then either lock onto the next gate and jump asap or (if you don't know where the gate is) set a bit of space a sector or two away from the gate and jump - you'll be left in peace long enough to get you system exit jump sorted

Docking at a station is a bit more tense since you have to change heading to a gate value before jumping but it's not too hard

No DaveK - and with the method I've set up it's easier than average I'd say - but it's still a quite time consuming process that I'd rather not make just to get my Ship back to the condition I had it before a Frame swap.

Paul

I've gone from one side of Evochron to the other in a ferret, without a scratch - simply by not hanging around long enough to get caught. In real time it takes a few minutes. No equipment mods necessary

[SeeJay]

Listen to DaveK. He is THE master of running without getting hit!:P

[DaveK]

Humble By Choice

[Marvin]

IIRC, Denny uses the Starmaster for everything: combat and exploring. For me, it's too slow in the turn. But, outfitted with the proper wing, the Mammoth works just fine. Then, again, the only crewmember I carry around is the science officer ... unless combat is the main objective. Then a reconfiguration might be in order.

[PaulB]

IIRC, Denny uses the Starmaster for everything: combat and exploring. For me, it's too slow in the turn. But, outfitted with the proper wing, the Mammoth works just fine. Then, again, the only crewmember I carry around is the science officer ... unless combat is the main objective. Then a reconfiguration might be in order.

If the Mammoth only had the 1 extra Capacity to match the Starmaster......
The 45 vs 40 is a plus - but I want my 8 equip slots no if, and, or buts - and I really don't want to give up a Hardpoint so if I want 4 Crew and I do - then that only leaves me with 1 CM slot.

I wish I could tell the difference better but I've tried a C13 wing on both frames and I can't tell - maybe cause I have been playing the game long enough to detect more subtle differences in maneuvering.
I can tell one heck of a difference in slugishness in settling for engines below C7 on the larger frames.

I've seen the Wing Graph. but it looks to me like there is not enough difference to worry about whether to get a C10 - C13 on a large Frame - is there? If so - how can you tell?

How much better as a C10 Shield than a C7 or C8 (or maybe C9)

I obviously have to compromise between Fuel tank, Wing, Engine, Shield.
I think it was Seejay that said best Shield and Wing and whatever engine will fit after that - But I've tried Wing13 and Shield 9 or 10 and engines < 6 and t sure seems to me that I can tell quite a difference between a launch in IDS X1 with a C7+ engine vs IDS X2,3,4,5 and a C1 - C5 engine.
And from what I can tell and what I "think" Vice told me in an email - that it's better to have the thrust in IDS X1 that a smaller engine and IDS X.....
Actually I just reviewed the email:
( For rotational maneuverability, yes, as long as the wing and thruster set is the same (C11). In terms of forward/reverse adjustments, the higher class engine should provide a benefit.

Maneuverability in terms of rotation never slows down regardless of velocity and IDS setting. Rotational maneuverability is also based on the wing and thruster system selected (C11 in your example). Course adjustments are what are impacted by velocity. Setting the IDS to higher values and accelerating up to a higher speed will eventually increase the time it takes to adjust course. Higher class engines will be able to accelerate/decelerate better at those higher speeds, thrusters will also benefit from improved performance with a higher class engine for course changes)

So if I'm understanding what Vice is saying then if I want the best maneuverability in a larger frame then I need the better Wings and Engines which leaves choosing a lesser Shield to get those.
I'm already using a #2 Fuel tank (800 what-ever-it-is-units). No way I'd go down to 400.

Paul

[Marvin]

I do my own navigating, so that saves me a slot. Besides, I like the Travel Buddy better (say that ten times really fast).