Moderator's Note

[Nigel_Strange]

One bit of contraband equipment might be technology designed specifically to spoof scans. HEhe! A new industry just to support itself!

A level 1 scan shield could make your cargo hold appear empty to level 1 scans.
Another alternative is a scan detector. It would actively search for ships with scanners on and identify them, so you could either stay clear of them (outside scan distance) or drop cargo or bug out before being scanned.

as for illegal goods, I am of the opinion that we keep the game kid-friendly: no drug references, please. I'd go along with forbidden weapon technology or forbidden computer parts or other tech.

There are certainly areas where embargoes are enforced so that regularly legal stuff is illegal. For example, I have found water to be an illegal good in some situations. It could be that the local warlords are trying to keep the system impoverished and starved so that they can better maintain control of their "constituents." The smuggler is thus providing a valuable humanitarian service by bypassing these "authorities," and getting medicine, food, water, and other necessities to the planets under their control.

So, one would expect these to be in place in wartorn Guild-controlled systems.

[DynamicRanger]

I had the exact same thought about counter-scanners, with a slight variation: ships with C1 jammers would be detectable at reduced range--the range of a C1 scanner. In practice, jammers of a given class would cancel out scanners of an equal class, but merely reduce the effective range of higher class scanners. To keep it fair, jammers would only go up to C3 or C4.

The goods themselves: the reasons I settled on the illegal goods I did when I started the topic were purely structural. Chemical fabrication is easier in a microgravity environment, planets grow the organics needed to cheaply distill alcohol, so the planet/space risk/cost pattern emerges in alcohol and narcotics, or unlicensed pharmaceuticals... or whatever preferable alternative presents itself! Firearms and medical replacement organs are of enough value to military forces engaged in combat that enforcement policy becomes a secondary concern, hence the warzone/civilian zone trade patterns. No military force can expect to last long with intoxicated soldiers, so the strict ban on intoxicants in warzones. I'm not particularly attached to the specific goods, as such, but I think the environmental and location relationships between them is interesting. Kid-friendliness is of distant secondary concern to me personally, but I'm not the only one who plays the game, so I think we can easily figure this out to everyone's satisfaction.

And: Yes! Exactly! The smuggler's ethical and political character are very context-dependent; as you say, a smuggler may be a humanitarian, but if the enterprise itself isn't loaded with moral content, then the choice of whether or not a player's character is a humanitarian is up to them.

[Marvin]

I'll admit ignorance when it comes to (apparently) most of the game world: I haven't spent much if any time exploring the various locations off the beaten path.

Then this would be a great incentive to find star systems which are off the main trade lanes. 'Cause the out-of-the-way, "third world" planets would want things which aren't readily available locally. Things such as contraband high-tech items (I'm thinking Asimov's Foundation series here).

[DynamicRanger]

A simpler way to implement contraband enforcement would be a dice roll when selling illegal goods. When you sell illegal goods, the confirmation box will display the sell price and your chance of being caught (either roughly or with a fine percentage). If you're caught when selling, you're given the option of having the goods confiscated and paying the fine (scaled with your total cash). If you refuse, hostile ships will be waiting for you as you leave the station. In either case, you lose some overall reputation; the reputation hit is greater is you refuse to pay the fine and take your chances with the enforcement ships. To keep things simple, if you are caught selling illegal goods, you are caught before or during the sale, so the contraband is confiscated and the fine is applied to the cash you had upon entering the station.

Total losses if a ship is caught and agrees to pay: the cash amount of the fine and the illegal cargo, which to the player has the value of [amount paid + transport expenses]

While easier to implement, this system rules out some interesting gameplay mechanics, like sneaking or running past detector ships. Anti-smuggling missions would be identical with either detection system. People smuggling taxi contracts would have the risk applied at the point of departure for the passenger, so some people smuggling contracts would end with the player facing a group of hostiles waiting for them outside the station--even if they successfully completed the contract and received payment for it.

The likelihood of being caught could be determined by a combination of reputation (particularly with the local Navy faction) and the enforcement level of a given trade port. A mean or median enforcement level (a rough indicator of the overall likelihood of being caught smuggling) could be displayed in the system information pane of the inventory console. The player-visible enforcement level could be a fixed value, derived from the detection chance at major trade ports in the system, or it could be specifically derived based on the player's reputation/equipment/etc. and the average detection chance in the system.

More costly and smaller cargo holds could be built into a ship that impart a bonus against being detected. Smuggler's cargo holds would cost one or two classes-worth more than their standard counterparts, so a cargo hold with 3 shielded slots would cost as much as a cargo hold with 5 normal slots. Alternatively, some sort of cargo shielding/cloaking/disguising equipment (occupying an equipment slot) could alter the chances of being caught, with higher grade versions costing more and being harder to find. I'm leaning toward the former, because it seems simpler to implement and requires fewer new items to be available to buy and mount.

The reputation angle is tricky in this simpler contraband detection system: logically, having a good reputation would make detection less likely, but being caught lowers your reputation. I suppose (as ever), it's a risk vs. reward proposition--are you willing to risk your good reputation for a big payoff?

I've got a lot of ideas regarding what specific detection chances seems reasonable and the degree to which equipment and cargo holds decrease that chance, but this post is already too long.

[DynamicRanger]

Here's a mockup of the news console, including contraband information. The goods marked in red are illegal in the system and the "Enf. Lvl" is the general system-wide risk of being caught selling contraband. Cbd1 and Cbd2 are placeholders for whatever new (usually illegal) goods might be created for the purposes of a black market.

[Maarschalk]

This looks interesting and promising DynamicRanger! The idea of the Illegal goods I like! It being legal in some systems and illegal in others and the way you propose it seems a good way to start!......

[DynamicRanger]

Thanks for the input Maarschalk! It's great to know that there's some player interest in upgrading the economy.

[Major Grubert]

for example Fulcrum Torpedo should be really contraband.... and if scanned by "?" faction should be really dangerous for player , right now I can go everywhere cargo full and missile slot full as well of FT and enter any station with no problem, even if one check my stock or whatever, no fee, no shot, no police chase..

some other product already existing could be kind of illegal in some systems and legal in other, so prices and situations/problems could be more funny to manage (even simples ones, even in equipment slot )

some rare products/stuff/imaginary spice/artifacts/... could be available only in some ungated systems as well... not really illegal, only rare, so really expensive, and worth an attack for pirating (from or on you), right now I think I never find it useful to pirate another ship cargo, but if I see one with very rare stuff in... I could change my mind

my 0.20 cents..

M.G.

[Rubber Chicken]

^^

Like the mock-up economy screen.

While I agree that FT's should be labeled as contraband, I think certain 'seedier' areas should welcome the trade with open arms.

Besides if any copper tries to confiscate my FT's they just might succeed - the hard way!:P:P:P

Perhaps docking fees (if required) should be negotiated before entering the dock, and be weighed based upon the types of cargo you have. Contraband = docking denial, Risqué or 'controversial' items = additional fee + reputation fee if moderate/hostile, Run-of-the-mill items = no additional penalty.

It could also give rise to a new equipment item that foils the cargo scanner by sending false cargo data. The better the class level of the scan blocker, the better the chance of bypassing being scanned, and the closer the police ship will have to get to obtain an accurate reading.

[DynamicRanger]

A couple posts ago Nigel_Strange suggested the counter-scanning idea and I proposed equipment that reduces the effective range of scanners: C1 counter-scan cancels out C1 cargo scanners, but only reduces the effective range of higher class scanners by the range of a C1 scanner--counter-scans only go up to C4, so there's always a range at which your cargo can be scanned by C5 scanners.

Perhaps docking fees (if required) should be negotiated before entering the dock, and be weighed based upon the types of cargo you have.

If loss of reputation is one of the major risks of being caught with contraband, then the same practical effect would occur. Particularly if the probability based detection system is used, over time a smuggler is bound to be caught at some point, lowering the buffer they have before needing to pay docking fees under the existing reputation system. Loss of reputation and the prospect of paying docking fees as a result, as well as the fine levied, combine to make smuggling risky, even if you opt not to fight the authorities.

I'd be interested to know people's thoughts on the simplified detection scheme I proposed a few posts ago: if coding a police force proves to be unworkable, would a probability based system at the point of sale retain any of the appeal of smuggling past active detector ships? For my part, I think the core concept of a high-risk/reward sub-economy with unique trade value patterns is interesting, whether or not there are ships in the world actively trying to detect illegal goods.

[DaveK]

I'd be interested to know people's thoughts on the simplified detection scheme I proposed a few posts ago: if coding a police force proves to be unworkable, would a probability based system at the point of sale retain any of the appeal of smuggling past active detector ships? For my part, I think the core concept of a high-risk/reward sub-economy with unique trade value patterns is interesting, whether or not there are ships in the world actively trying to detect illegal goods.

Could a police force be fairly easily coded by creating a force of AI with the same ship design (like the Vipers in the original Elite) that are programmed to attack any ship carrying contraband (as specified in that system). Or would you want something a bit more sophisticated like the option to jettison the contraband and receive a 'spot fine' - refusal would lead to attack by the police. The police could be fitted with C6 scanners allowing them to detect contraband at whatever range is considered appropriate

I think the info screen works well

[DynamicRanger]

Ideally, an enforcement fleet would focus on preventing smuggling and destroying or confiscating illegal goods, not simply killing smugglers. As far as I know, it would take a lot of new code to program those AI behaviors. Also, enforcement ships would have to be quite predictable overall--if they could randomly appear anywhere as part of the normal ship traffic, then it would be very difficult to develop strategies for smuggling goods. Enforcement ships' placement and patrol patterns would require new AI behaviors, as well as traffic patterns of other ships in areas patrolled by enforcement ships.

The main purpose of using the simpler probability based detection system is to avoid having to code patrol behaviors and to make the system more transparent to players. Being issued fines and paying them would also be easier to do in dialog boxes that work well when docked, but aren't appropriate when in flight.

The info screen mockup is intended to show how the relevant information can be easily accommodated by the existing UI--in the next day or two I'll create a few more to give an idea of what being caught smuggling might look like and possible goods descriptions within the game.

[Major Grubert]

I would love to find rare things in far remote systems... unfortunately we find the same stuff wherever we go, only prices change...

Rare things from unknown places would be much more incentive to go out of main roads and explore

In reverse most common things from gated systems could be very very very illegals in some remote systems because of "technology pollution" rules, even landing on some planets should illegal because of political protection of pre-space exploration-worlds (ok this introduce some kind of politic and is maybe purely speculative and impossible to code rigth now, but..)

dunno, i like the idea to give much more possibility to noobs and oldys as well, imagine that after many month of space gaming you still found unknown items in some guys cargo.. "hey where did u get that things " "hum, thats a long and expensive story dude..."

[DynamicRanger]

How rare are we talking, Major Grubert? At a certain point, really rare items might as well be one-of-a-kind (or one-of-a-server, I guess) and I think that idea is especially intriguing. You could take smuggling to an absolute extreme: a one-of-a-kind item that is so illegal, that only a few buyers would dare pay you for it. At most stations trying to sell the cursed item would carry a 99%-100% detection risk, but the reward would be astronomical. The trick would be finding one of the handful of hidden stations out in the void that would actually pay you for it.

[Major Grubert]

Hum, dunno, maybe some items could be found in 1 for 20 non-gated systems, others at 1 for 50 and so on...

tough rare could not mean especially illegal, but maybe those rare items could not be sold at all stations... some very unknown items could be sale only at some place...

maybe some of them could be trade only to vonari

(if they existed) vonari items should be very illegal but very expensive in some remote places where we could sold them (not in gated systems) (gates should not work with ship carrying vonari stuff/illegal for example)

[DaveK]

maybe some of them could be trade only to vonari

It would need a recode of vonari AI to stop them shooting first and asking about trade later!

cool idea though

[Finwolf]

I'm new to this game, but those ideas sound really cool. But I was thinking about the enforcers. What if they had some sort of jump drive inhibitors?

That would make stealth approaches count a lot more and you would have to balance between fast agile ships and heavier ships.

[DaveK]

I'm new to this game, but those ideas sound really cool. But I was thinking about the enforcers. What if they had some sort of jump drive inhibitors?

That would make stealth approaches count a lot more and you would have to balance between fast agile ships and heavier ships.

Jump drive inhibitors opens up a whole new (interesting) world!!

They could be banned goods = smugglers needed to provide them or only available in select out of the way locations = very expensive.

They would impact on combat, especially pVp, as well as being part of contraband interception contracts - you would have the choice of getting an extra large reward or you could choose to go rogue and keep it for later resale or own use! The technology would also be very expensive to buy and possibly subject to confiscation if you are caught in a 'random' stop and search

[Capt_Caveman]

very interesting idea, I like it

[Rexor]

[Edited on 29-8-2013 by Rexor]

[Marvin]

The member who posted above has been requested to edit the post. No further response is required at this time by other members.