Planet size issues

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Planet size issues

Post by Vice »

As the regulars around here know, I like to evaluate and review various game design decisions from time to time as a game develops along with considering significant changes for possible future projects. Along this line of review, I'd like to bring up the subject of planet sizes again. I know, it has been a chronic topic around here for years and years :) But with the expansion increasing the planet sizes many times over just recently and the resulting positive feedback it has been getting relative to very little negative feedback, I figured it might be time to once again consider changes even further in that direction. But due to how much greater the change would potentially be, it would be good to discuss/review the pros and cons. I'll open with some thoughts, concerns, and comments we've had in the past on the subject, then leave the thread open for replies and comments.

Once in a while, I receive feedback from a few people who express interest in having planets increase in size to what would be considered 'realistic' in terms of actual universe scaling. But what most of them fail to do is objectively articulate the gameplay benefit and purposeful relevance to the game (ie existing gameplay options, requirements, and functions). They say they want it, but provide little in terms of explaining why or how it would improve gameplay outside of just a concept of 'feel'. So that's one area I'd like to tackle in this thread, either for or against the idea of fully realistic planet sizes.

For moderately realistic planet spacing and scaling, a planet would likely cover at least several sectors and have to be spaced apart from other planets by at least many dozens of sectors, often many hundreds. So you can imagine the effect this would have on open travel times, descent times, and long (LONG) waits for completing basic tasks in the game. Players would likely be chronically asking for new jump gates to everywhere as open space travel, even with jump drives, would become tedious, long term investments of time and resources. I'll go over possible work-arounds and 'patches' to solve such problems later. But one shift toward realism in this aspect would require other multiple shifts in other areas that many current players would likely not be willing to give up.

For example, try it now. Fly around the game's universe at 50-150 MPS, including planet descents at the required minimum speed to maintain flight. That will give you the sense of a major increase in the relative size of the planets in the game's universe. How did that improve the game for you, specifically? What benefit(s) did you discover by having to contend with the large relative planet sizes? And on the other side, how did this hurt gameplay for you, specifically? What drawbacks did you discover by having to contend with the large relative planet sizes?

If the planet sizes were increased further, consider the volume of players who enjoy the planet sizes the way they are now (which have already been increased many times over) and how they would then be forced to contend with extended descent times and far longer waits. They would (rightly) soon be asking for ways to speed it up. Time warping, faster speeds... you name it. Then if that compromise is implemented, what good was increasing the size of the planets in the first place? Plus, changing speed limits would radically change numerous elements of the -gameplay- in the game (not the least of which being combat dynamics) while time warping isn't feasible with others in the game running at different time rates in multiplayer for obvious reasons.

A point some make is that project A or B is doing something, therefore Evochron should too. However, that carries little weight with me as I don't really care what other games may do in terms of what I want to do with Evochron. My goal is not to imitate or duplicate, but make Evochron the game I enjoy playing and supporting along with others who share the same interests in terms of design and gameplay. So I prefer the discussion to be about what such a change would do to help or harm this game specifically.
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Planet size issues

Post by Capt_Caveman »

the only thing i dont like about the current planet size is the extreme curvature of the horizon when viewed from low altitude.
it's like flying around a tiny moon.

I know this is a visual preference and probably has no added benefit to gameplay.
but all the posts I've read on this subject seem to be visual preference also.
could the horizon view be flattened somehow as altitude decreases ?
this would give the illusion of a larger planet when close.

maybee increase the size as well. how would increasing size 2x effect the rest of the game I wonder ?
how large can you go without redesigning the entire universe ?
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Post by Marvin »

As Denny and others can attest to, I prefer as much realism as possible. In Silent Hunter, I sail across the Pacific or the Atlantic in normal time ... my computer running for hours without any action (the old "days and days of boredom peppered with seconds of pure panic"). Silent Hunter provides a remedy to the boredom for those who want more action: time compression. But that only works in multiplayer if everyone on the server agrees to time compression. Which is fine by me ... I do my real-time sailing in SP.

As for the Evoverse, I'd love to see the Milky Way reflected realistically. Planets maybe a bit bigger. But gas giants and stars even bigger. Correspondingly, sectors and subsectors increased in size. Stars you can see from hundreds of sectors away ... point toward one of 'em and activate autopilot ... (engage time compression if you like) ... on approach to a star system, planets beging to show up as little dots of light. If you get tired of making road trips to each planetary system, then ... well, with a few billion credits you can build your own gate. In fact, start out with absolutely no default jumpgates. Make the mercenaries build the all!

How would that help game play? Well, in MP you might require a mercenary at each end of the new gate system. To motivate cooperation. The rest? That will take some extra thought.
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Planet size issues

Post by Vice »

maybee increase the size as well. how would increasing size 2x effect the rest of the game I wonder ?
how large can you go without redesigning the entire universe ?
2X probably wouldn't help the curvature, although it probably would have a fairly minimal impact on gameplay also.

The current size is about at the limit it can go without redesigning the universe and having to change a lot of things. So such a change would likely only be feasible in a future project of some kind.
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Planet size issues

Post by Capt_Caveman »

From post: 160871, Topic: tid=10757, author=Marvin wrote: in MP you might require a mercenary at each end of the new gate system. To motivate cooperation. The rest? That will take some extra thought.
coop gate building sounds interesting.
there would have to be well thought out limits.
like prevent building gates in known systems.

we maybee getting of topic, sry
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Planet size issues

Post by Marvin »

From post: 160873, Topic: tid=10757, author=capt_cronic wrote:we maybee getting of topic, sry
Vice mentioned jumpgates in the first post.
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Planet size issues

Post by Rubber Chicken »

Been doing quite a bit of exploring and terrain walking lately. The planets IMO are great as they are. :)
If anything was to be done with planets IMO, it would involve refinement of the terrain - Cave systems and things like that. (Unless I just haven't found any yet :D)

I did encounter a bug on Alpha-C. The wind effect seems to 'pin' the ship to the ground and no amount of afterburner will get the ship going faster than stall speed. Self destruct and respawn in the upper atmo is the only way out.

I'd rather see a bit more refinement in the Clan control system, economy, and some of the contracts.

For example: The Terrain Walker survey contract. All you have to do is go to the way point and stand there until the contract is complete. Perhaps if there were 'sub-waypoints' to travel to in the survey area, then it might be a little more involving.


I'd also like to see an Arvoch Alliance style jump drive, with multi-point course plotting on the nav map.

I only have a couple issues with PvP combat at this point. It seems that if you are hit with a high enough volume of fire, all of your controls go dead temporarily - in spite of still having 'core/weapon's' energy available on the meter to operate maneuvering thrusters and other systems. I understand that if you lose all of your energy meter, then you have no way to ignite the afterburner or maneuvering thrusters, but this seems to happen before the meter is completely drained.

That and IMO the kinetic effect of particle weapons is still a bit strong.

I've said it in a previous thread: It might be a good idea to look into outside influence from time to time, but when it's said "If only EM could have (Insert random space sim)'s baby, that would be awesome!", I stop reading that post immediately.

I'm sure you wouldn't have stuck with this for as long as you have, Vice, if you didn't aspire to excellence in what you do. You are completely on track in saying that StarWraith / EM should be the Father of it's own legacy and not just some baby's mama to another (random space sim)/EM hybrid. :)

Keep up the excellent work. :cool:

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Sorry if I rambled a bit off topic.



[Edited on 4-9-2013 by Rubber Chicken]
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Planet size issues

Post by Marvin »

If the planets were bigger and, therefore, harder to navigate (takes longer to make planetfall and the possibility of burning up or crashing is greater), there needs to be a good reason for making planetfall in the first place. Some possibilities might be:
  • Cities with docking bays and tunnels and other things you can fly in, through, and around. Sort of like the asteroid cave ... only man-made. With hidden items stored away in some side corridor.
  • Canyons and valleys you can actually hide behind when being chased by a horde of enemy ships. Or you can hide behind in a TW to avoid a barrage of missiles.
  • Hostile cities with defenses. Destroy the defenses before flying down those corridors and retrieving what's stored in the hidden crates.
  • City corridors again ... make some of them too narrow for anything except a TW. But make using a TW worth the trip (some of the time, anyway).
  • Add more planet-only contracts. High-paying ones.
  • Add a few high-tech items to the inventory which can only be bought planetside.
  • Make some inventory items cheap to buy at a trade station but expensive to buy (and, therefore, sell) on a planet. Like precious metals ... make them less available for mining on a planet ... forcing planets to pay exorbitant prices, compared to what stations would pay.
  • Make other items, like water or biologicals for instance, cheap to buy or mine planetside but expensive to buy or sell in space.
  • Allow mercenaries to build colonies on planets. Where one colony is worth as much (for territory control) as two or three stations.
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Planet size issues

Post by fatboy21007 »

since I am new and had a lot of fun on planets. more detail, more to do on them.if they are to be bigger then there should be more content to go on them. atm you have endless amounts of unused space on planets. so lets add more items to create, missions for terrain walkers. the ability to build bases on planets and ofc ability to build jump gates. mb even a capture the base kinda idea too, where I can engage it and if u defeat the enemy u can claim his base. cuz if your gonna get bigger, lets get Big for a good reason. You can have realism. However realism with nothing else but open land u cant do anythingwith seems rather pointless unless you want to add more u can do on that land. then realism becomes worth it and fun. I am hooked on this game. So get used to hearing me wanting more to create ingame hehe. I love space so my ideas are endless. Also water got onmy good keyboard n nuked it, so using this tiny 1 is tough to type..lol
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Planet size issues

Post by Rubber Chicken »

Regardless, as far as the scaling goes - I can still look into a 15" laptop monitor and get an excellent sense of what it might be like if this was real. :cool: It doesn't have to be spot-on perfect. Perfectionism has proven to be the destroyer of many great things.
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Planet size issues

Post by DORN »

I would agree with rubber chicken.

For the evoverse as it is now, the size is good. There is a balance I like about it all.

The planet scaling fits very well in the current EM verse scale. What I would like to see is more interesting stuff ON the planets. Different cities. Rivers. Plagiarize from Homer's Odyssey. Stick a Cyclops in a cave, or a Vonari hornets nest in cliffs.

Add a little here, add a little there, and incrementally over time, (like the evoverse has already developed), the planets become more interesting content wise and graphics wise. More fun and more interesting to be down there.





Then again, how about starting EM all over from scratch. I am sure that in time it would be just as fun as it is now.
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Planet size issues

Post by Rubber Chicken »

From post: 160888, Topic: tid=10757, author=DORN wrote:
Then again, how about starting EM all over from scratch. I am sure that in time it would be just as fun as it is now.
While Vice has alluded to plans of potentially building a new project, starting from scratch would probably not be all that feasible. After all every Evoverse title in the series is essentially a massive 'expansion' on the previous game. Large enough to stand alone as it's own title, but still drawing on much of the basic framework of the predecessor. My guess is the next Evoverse title will be along those lines as well.

Unless Vice is working on throwing us SW3DG fans a MAJOR swerve for whatever he's got in mind next. :P

...Or do you mean from the player perspective of busting oneself back down to square 0.0.0?


[Edited on 4-10-2013 by Rubber Chicken]
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Planet size issues

Post by Mr.Peanut »

As a newcomer to EM, I will say that at first the odd scaling of planets, cities and vegetation bothered me aesthetically, but I quickly came to realise that it was a necessary compromise. It takes long enough to circumnavigate a planet to become boring (even worse when under the influence). I do not see any point in expanding the size of planets unless there are plans to have more content on them or more variation to their surfaces/geography. Even then, I am not certain it would serve to improve gameplay in any way.

I put the size of planets in the same category as the exaggerated vertical scaling of terrain.

[Edited on 4-10-2013 by Mr.Peanut]
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Planet size issues

Post by Busch »

The Evo-verse community has sustained a number of starting-from-scratch episodes. The migration from Legends to Mercenaries is one I'll offer as case-in-point. All of us started at Ground Zero profile-wise at Mercs launch. These start-ups usually occur in time, and in tune with, upgrades to the different (then current tech) game basics such as graphics engines and the like. Some times they've winnowed the wheat from the chaff; the willing from the not-so; the committed from those who should be. ;)

I'll support every effort to make and keep this Evo-verse fair, balanced, and immensely accessable and flyable by all. It's a pretty large place now. And vastly accommodating. Have always liked, truly appreciated, the fact I'm not being lead around by the nose.

[Edited on 4-10-2013 by Busch]
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Planet size issues

Post by Malix »

I'd be happy with some size alteration. currently it feels like I'm a microscopic dude flying a fruitfly, landing on a small lego city :P

1. a bit more exaggerated terrain elevation, would like more detailed terrain too but performance-wise probably not a good idea.
2. small trees instead of gigantic grass, dunno if it's a mod I have or what, but some of the vegetation (grass) seem as tall as the buildings in cities.
3. more plentiful vegetation (maybe an option to scale the amount of vegetation, so end user may drop vegetation if performance issues rise).
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Planet size issues

Post by Rubber Chicken »

From post: 160895, Topic: tid=10757, author=Busch wrote:The Evo-verse community has sustained a number of starting-from-scratch episodes. The migration from Legends to Mercenaries is one I'll offer as case-in-point. All of us started at Ground Zero profile-wise at Mercs launch. These start-ups usually occur in time, and in tune with, upgrades to the different (then current tech) game basics such as graphics engines and the like. Some times they've winnowed the wheat from the chaff; the willing from the not-so; the committed from those who should be. ;)

I'll support every effort to make and keep this Evo-verse fair, balanced, and immensely accessable and flyable by all. It's a pretty large place now. And vastly accommodating. Have always liked, truly appreciated, the fact I'm not being lead around by the nose.

[Edited on 4-10-2013 by Busch]
From a player perspective, and a SW3DG fan, I'd gladly pony up the cash for the next episode - and even have a great time working back up from square 0.0.0. :):cool:
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Planet size issues

Post by Ivarr »

I'm not bothered by the current planet sizes. Perhaps a slight upscale would be a positive change, but as it was pointed out by others: it wouldn't be that big of a change without terrain tweaks.

What bothers me a bit is the render distance cap of celestial bodies - from certain distance they simply disappear. When in a star system, I would like to be able to see its planets and the star in the distance. And perhaps the star of a nearby star system.
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Planet size issues

Post by -splosives- »

Before increasing the size of the rocky planets, 2 things need to be done first:

- The gas giants' size needs to be increased to at least the same size as a rocky planet. bigger would be better.

- The stars also could use a major size increase, as for now they're just tiny light bulbs compared to the very large planets. This results in for example mercury being unrealistically big compared to the nearby sun.

- Planetary rings need better textures (especially the non continuous ones with the spots). These things are so big that even high res textures get low res, but there should be a way to improve this. For example, let the texture improve in resolution as you get closer.

I'd like to see how even bigger planets will influence the game, but first these things need to be done.

(Also, pluto is not a planet anymore, you might want to consider making it smaller :P.)

[Edited on 4-10-2013 by -splosives-]
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Planet size issues

Post by -splosives- »

Also, instead of increasing planet size, you could decrease the terrain walker size (so they actually fit in the ship)
Just a thought.
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Planet size issues

Post by _-Caleb-_ »

From post: 160882, Topic: tid=10757, author=Marvin wrote:If the planets were bigger and, therefore, harder to navigate (takes longer to make planetfall and the possibility of burning up or crashing is greater), there needs to be a good reason for making planetfall in the first place. Some possibilities might be:
  • Cities with docking bays and tunnels and other things you can fly in, through, and around. Sort of like the asteroid cave ... only man-made. With hidden items stored away in some side corridor.
  • Canyons and valleys you can actually hide behind when being chased by a horde of enemy ships. Or you can hide behind in a TW to avoid a barrage of missiles.
  • Hostile cities with defenses. Destroy the defenses before flying down those corridors and retrieving what's stored in the hidden crates.
  • City corridors again ... make some of them too narrow for anything except a TW. But make using a TW worth the trip (some of the time, anyway).
  • Add more planet-only contracts. High-paying ones.
  • Add a few high-tech items to the inventory which can only be bought planetside.
  • Make some inventory items cheap to buy at a trade station but expensive to buy (and, therefore, sell) on a planet. Like precious metals ... make them less available for mining on a planet ... forcing planets to pay exorbitant prices, compared to what stations would pay.
  • Make other items, like water or biologicals for instance, cheap to buy or mine planetside but expensive to buy or sell in space.
  • Allow mercenaries to build colonies on planets. Where one colony is worth as much (for territory control) as two or three stations.
Hola.

I really like this suggestions :)

The colonies is a GREAT idea (For example, time to the first module: 10 minutes, and then, every 30/40 mins a new module with a limit of, for example, 48) And with taxation for the Mercenary... And all with defense systems for possible attacks and/or invasions :D

Regards!

EDIT: I like the new planets but they are empty... only 1 o 2 cities... and a lot of empty terrain... need something for motive the player go down to the surface. In Merc 2 we have the Tw but need some more :)

[Edited on 4-10-2013 by AdamSelene]
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Planet size issues

Post by -splosives- »

AI in terrain walkers would be nice too.
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Planet size issues

Post by Maarschalk »

I do not think increasing planet size will benefit game play at all. To add more stuff to planets the planets do not need to be bigger!.

Adding Caves and Cities with tunnels adding more terrain detail and exploration stuff planet side....etc....would enhance the game more than planet size!
Making planets bigger and adding more stuff to a bigger planet just causes more boredom, longer times to complete certain boring essential tasks like planet descent and city docking, computer performance and resource issues than giving any benefit to game play!.....;):cool:
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Planet size issues

Post by andysonofbob »

Bigger! Bigger the better! It will add immersion and open up the option of meaningful atmospheric gameplay.

Atmospheric gameplay, as it is, feels claustrophobic. The cloud ceiling is just too low. Compare EM's atmospheric gameplay with EVERY single flight combat game out there and you will see how restrictive it is.

I appreciate the scale of the world must increase DRAMATICALLY to add even double the atmospheric depth to play in (keeping to scale) - could this be done though? Could you try increasing the surface area by 400%? Doing that would double (that is right isn't it? :/ ) the diameter of the planets, making them look even more awesome than they do! Although the thickness of the atmosphere would double, couldn't the cloud level thickness be kept as it is for aesthetics? Imagine 800% to play in!

To compensate for the valid issues of boredom, entering in and out of atmosphere, couldn't we do what Elite 2 did over 20 years ago? Add features like time dilation which you could switch on when needed. This of course would only work when it was safe, blatently safe - no red targets, above a certain alititude, distance from hazardous objects, below a certain speed when atmospheric avionics have been activated etc.

Do it!

edit - time dilation might be dificult to implement in MP

What about doubling the speed you can fly in the atmosphere then?

[Edited on 4-10-2013 by andysonofbob]
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Planet size issues

Post by Maarschalk »

For Flight Simulators you are talking about one Planet Earth and the more realistic scaled Flight Simulators with High Earth realistic details are computer resource hungry, now apply that realism to a whole seamless Universe in Evochrons Case Thousands of Planets and Suns and the game will not run as smooth as it does now even on the fastest and best gaming computers available to day!.....;)

[Edited on 4-10-2013 by Maarschalk]
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Planet size issues

Post by andysonofbob »

Hello mate!

I wasn't talking about high earth realism; I was just considering scale. I am happy with EM's graphics as they are. In fact just increasing the scale would make the same graphics even better I think.

I guess Vice is the right dude for this question but seeing as EM is procedural, wouldn't the scale of planets not even affected framerates? The increased draw distance availiable certainly would, but the scale shouldn't. In fact I would imagine it is just making a few numbers in a .txt file compressed somewhere larger, so the disk footprint should be the same too!

What I was talking about was enjoyment of large open spaces. If you look at Combat Flight Simulator 2 (based on Flight Simulator 2000) in 2000(1999) it has HUGE theatres and you could land on moving boats. If we go to Combat Flight Simulator 3 (based on Flight Simulator 2002) in 2002 (2001), we are in highly realistic territory - check out the screenies (better in some ways than EM me thinks)! In both games the curvature of the Earth is barely seen unless high up! And both allowed you to circumnavigate the globe!

Your right though, the gameplay enhancements would be minimum. But I would still like it as I find atmospheric gameplay a little claustrophobicas as it is. :)

Planet sized EM here.