Awesome in 3D Vision! Thanks Starwraith!

andysonofbob · Post by **andysonofbob** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:33 pm

I bought this game months ago but assumed it didn't work because I hadn't set the display to Fullscreen!

Wow the 3D is great. I had no idea it would be as good as this. Admittedly I have only played for about 5 minutes before I got too excited and had to leave to post some threads about EM!

There are a couple of issues but these are ironed out using the following mods. There are two versions:

BASIC: Just fix those issues and leave everything else alone!
http://speedy.sh/tktUD/Evochron-Mercena ... on-Fix.rar

RECOMMENDED: As above, using MAXIMILLIAN's cockpit and lots of VIPERS's HUD - the cockpit is sleak, professional and has matt display consoles which make it easier to see the target ship details in 3D and the HUD looks stunning. I seriously recommend this one.
http://speedy.sh/cXJFs/Evochron-Mercena ... ockpit.rar

[Edited on 4-7-2013 by andysonofbob]

49rTbird · Post by **49rTbird** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:44 pm

Welcome to the forum and the Sim. Please post a screen shot of your problem/request if possible.

andysonofbob · Post by **andysonofbob** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:21 pm

Thanks thetiebers!

Hopefully this is clear in the screen shot. I had to shrink it somewhat to keep to 47kB!

If you can imagine 3 layers: close range, mid distance and far distance. Currently the object being targeted is at the far distance (beyond the ship), the gun sights are rendered at the middle distance (these are perfectly placed by the way) and the target icon is rendered close range (around the same depth as the compasses).

Having the target icon so close is like trying to play the game whilst putting your finger between the screen and your face.

Ideally the target icon should be at the same depth as the gun sight. That would be perfect!

I hope that made more sense to you than it did to me as I read it back to myself...

BTW I have been looking for an Elite Frontier like game (NOT ELITE 1) for as long as I remember. I am 38, been gaming for many hours each day since I was 10. I have become bored of games of late but haven't felt this excited about a game for ages! And the 3D is practically perfect too! Awesome!

[file]779[/file]

[Edited on 4-2-2013 by andysonofbob]

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:47 pm

From post: 160551, Topic: tid=10732, author=andysonofbob wrote:Thanks thetiebers!

Hopefully this is clear in the screen shot. I had to shrink it somewhat to keep to 47kB!

If you can imagine 3 layers: close range, mid distance and far distance. Currently the object being targeted is at the far distance (beyond the ship), the gun sights are rendered at the middle distance (these are perfectly placed by the way) and the target icon is rendered close range (around the same depth as the compasses).

Having the target icon so close is like trying to play the game whilst putting your finger between the screen and your face.

Ideally the target icon should be at the same depth as the gun sight. That would be perfect!

I hope that made more sense to you than it did to me as I read it back to myself...

BTW I have been looking for an Elite Frontier like game (NOT ELITE 1) for as long as I remember. I am 38, been gaming for many hours each day since I was 10. I have become bored of games of late but haven't felt this excited about a game for ages! And the 3D is practically perfect too! Awesome!

[Edited on 4-2-2013 by andysonofbob]

Hi and welcome to the game and forum!...Hope to see you out there some time!

These, the compasses and target Icons are all part of your HUD(Heads Up Display) so they would all be at the same depth.
as displayed on a piece of flat glass. The Target it self would be the furthest and the gun sight is between the HUD and the Target as it should be(Like the airplanes gun sights before there were HUDS on the Cockpit Canopies!)......

andysonofbob · Post by **andysonofbob** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:03 pm

Hello! Thanks!

For sure. But the compasses in 3D look like they are holograms within the cockpit, not on the screen; this is really cool.

And, as you say, the gun sights and other HUD elements look like they are being projected on the cockpit screen, as they should be.

But

The target icon is rendered at a similar depth as the compasses, floating inside the cockpit. It would be awesome if the target icon was rendered at the same depth as the gun sight. (Not the targeted object.)

Regardless of how accurate this is, it would be nice if the target icon could be rendered further out (gun sight would be perfect for comfortable viewing) which is gutting as everything else seems so perfect!

Thanks!

Post by **Vice** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:19 pm

Those icons are rendered at that distance for several functional reasons and can't feasibly be moved without impacting their operation. They risk being clipped/overlapped by other structures if they are moved out. Selective z-depth isn't an option for them since they depend on placement and layered patterns/sequences in order to render properly.

One option that may help is to change the icons themselves. Using the customizing kit and the \\hud folder, replacing the default icon graphics with something thinner and/or smaller could reduce the visibility obstruction produced by the 3D system for indicators that are rendered close to the pilot's perspective on their helmet visor.

3D behavior seems to vary depending on equipment being used (type of glasses, monitor, settings, etc). Some players seem to see some objects closer than others, some too close, some just right. The compass and radar that are perfect for you are misplaced for another on their configuration. It's tricky to pin down exactly what might work best for everyone trying to use 3D with such variation in the results. So for most, it may be a matter of experimenting with settings and if necessary, mods, to try and get the look they prefer best.

andysonofbob · Post by **andysonofbob** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:08 pm

@Vice

Thanks for the heads up regarding the HUD customisation kit. I'll have a play with that in the morrow.

I have found for 3D vision kits changing convergence pushes the compasses in or out. You are probably aware of that but I do understand what you mean by clipping. (the compasses being a good example!)

If you'll forgive my persistence, the nature of the target icon means it WILL clip depending on where it is with relative to orientation. As long as the main focus of the target icon is ok(the rough zone of the gun sight) Example Just Cause 2. The positions of the compasses on the other hand are fixed and must not clip as a result.

Setting the depth of the target icon to close to the gun sight makes sense because (for gameplay) you want the two to align. It doesn't matter if the target icon clips when not centered because it's a) mobile or b) not the current focus of the gamer.

At the moment it is rendered to close. I game at high depth and high convergence so I guess depth issues are magnified for me. Unfortunately, the Helix mod doesn't work for EM otherwise I would attempt to isolate the shaders responsible myself.

I am that confident it would benefit (definitely not impair) the 3D experience that if anyone complains or finds it not to their liking I will purchase another copy of the game. May not sound like much but you try explaining a second purchase to my wife!

Post by **Vice** » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:58 am

By clipping, I was referring to the in-game depth sorting, not 3D edge clipping. The icons are rendered at their current depth to keep within the confines of other structures nearby. If they are pushed out, their zdepth then risks colliding with other structures, causing one or more of the layers of the icons to 'hide' behind the other structure(s), which results in the icon either partially disappearing, or entirely disappearing depending on the zdepth of the competing structure. It wouldn't be such a big deal if proper zdepth placement wasn't required, but it is due to them being a fully 'in-scene' object with multiple layers (front + shadow). Aside from modifying the icons themselves, perhaps the 3D kit you are using will let you specify minimum and maximum depth targets. If so, you could easily push out the minimum to start beyond the icons. It'd be handy to see what you're seeing regardless, if you could e-mail me (starwraith.com > contact) a screenshot of the actual 3D image you are seeing.

norc · Post by **norc** » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:00 am

I am going to have to bust out my Sony HMD tonight and try this in stereo 3D .. not sure why I hadn't thought of tryin it earlier.

andysonofbob · Post by **andysonofbob** » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:35 am

From post: 160566, Topic: tid=10732, author=norc wrote:I am going to have to bust out my Sony HMD tonight and try this in stereo 3D .. not sure why I hadn't thought of tryin it earlier.

Mate,

If it is as good as 3D Vision, you will love it! Don't forget to set it to fullscreen!

http://photos.3dvisionlive.com/andysono ... a7e00011a/

[Edited on 4-3-2013 by andysonofbob]

norc · Post by **norc** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:11 am

Could not get this to work with Nvidias 3DTV Play system. Which is odd because every other game I have that uses DirectX works in stereo3D (including old games like Starsiege Tribes).

I tried to rename the exe but because it was a steam purchase I then couldn't launch the game.

Any tips?

MiaZ · Post by **MiaZ** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:05 am

From post: 160591, Topic: tid=10732, author=norc wrote:Could not get this to work with Nvidias 3DTV Play system. Which is odd because every other game I have that uses DirectX works in stereo3D (including old games like Starsiege Tribes).

I tried to rename the exe but because it was a steam purchase I then couldn't launch the game.

Any tips?

I could only get 3D to work after I used EM's "locked" screen mode.
Its funny though because later i reset it back to optimized and 3d still worked.

norc · Post by **norc** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:01 am

Cool as will try "Locked" screen mode tonight... question where am I selecting "Locked" ?

MiaZ · Post by **MiaZ** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:33 am

From post: 160594, Topic: tid=10732, author=norc wrote:Cool as will try "Locked" screen mode tonight... question where am I selecting "Locked" ?

Options from the main screen after selecting pilot profile.
>screen mode
There is a setting "locked FS" , a full screen mode.
Most likely currently optimized WM.

Cant say for sure if that will make it work for you but it did work for me.

norc · Post by **norc** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:53 am

Thanks! That worked "Locked FS" was all it needed and BANG!

Omg... this game is amazing in stereo 3d on my HMZ-T1. I found myself taking my time when docking and undocking just to enjoy the view. The cockpit is stunning, going to have to hook up FreeTrackIR so I can use some head tracking.

Best moment was jumping back to a station and coming out of jump right as a huge destroyer floated past only a few meters in front of me... i slowly coasted up and over it, rolled so i could look out the canopy as i went over it and yeh... felt like I could reach out an touch it.

typx · Post by **typx** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:20 pm

From post: 160562, Topic: tid=10732, author=Vice wrote: By clipping, I was referring to the in-game depth sorting, not 3D edge clipping. The icons are rendered at their current depth to keep within the confines of other structures nearby. If they are pushed out, their zdepth then risks colliding with other structures, causing one or more of the layers of the icons to 'hide' behind the other structure(s), which results in the icon either partially disappearing, or entirely disappearing depending on the zdepth of the competing structure. It wouldn't be such a big deal if proper zdepth placement wasn't required, but it is due to them being a fully 'in-scene' object with multiple layers (front + shadow). Aside from modifying the icons themselves, perhaps the 3D kit you are using will let you specify minimum and maximum depth targets. If so, you could easily push out the minimum to start beyond the icons. It'd be handy to see what you're seeing regardless, if you could e-mail me (starwraith.com > contact) a screenshot of the actual 3D image you are seeing.

It would be great if there was a way to get those icons at the same depth as the ships they surround but scaled to be consistent size. For now it looks like the target icons could be changed to simple dots or something to minimize the distraction so I may play with the customization kit some more. Is there any way to force the z-depth of the icons out more in any of the config files? I for one would be fine with the icons clipping behind other objects occasionally to have them visible at a better depth most of the time. Thanks for the great games anyway. Great to see a space combat game with 3d cockpit and head tracking support!

andysonofbob · Post by **andysonofbob** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:08 pm

I think I might have confused Vice by only specifying the target icon when it affects all contacts.

@Vice - I should have used 'contact' icons.

If you look at the screenshot I have posted: http://photos.3dvisionlive.com/andysono ... 066000087/ all of those unit icons, including the selected target icon should be further back.

In your email you mentioned that for fixed render targets (locked to the camera) and zdepth disabled surfaces, itâ€™s easy. Isn't that the case for th target icons? Their z (depth) axis is fixed, they are just moving across the x and y axis. The size of the brackets need not change from what they are now, they just need to have the z-buffer the same as whatever the large gun circle is which is also fixed. BTW the HUD artificial horizon should also be at the same depth as the large circle gun sight it brackets.

I also wouldn't mind if the targets vanished.

I am so sorry to persist!

Post by **Vice** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:20 pm

In your email you mentioned that for fixed render targets (locked to the camera) and zdepth disabled surfaces, itâ€™s easy. Isn't that the case for th target icons? Their z (depth) axis is fixed, they are just moving across the x and y axis. The size of the brackets need not change from what they are now, they just need to have the z-buffer the same as whatever the large gun circle is which is also fixed. BTW the HUD artificial horizon should also be at the same depth as the large circle gun sight it brackets.

No, it's very different. 'Locked' structures are fixed to the camera's position, regardless of where the camera is placed. So those use a relative fixed coordinate system where the camera is always 0,0,0 relative to those objects even if it's something like 7832,2309,-8240. For those objects, they are 'locked' to the camera and use a unique zdepth attribute. This works for some structures (ie gunsight), but not others that must point to objects in the scene. Those must use the real world coordinate system and as such, are subject to 'regular' zdepth attributes. Zdepth can be disabled entirely, but that creates layering problems for objects using multiple surfaces (ie base + shadow), where the layers do not render correctly, sometimes at any angle, sometimes at certain angles. So zdepth placement has to be left on, resulting in a sensitivity to distance and clipping relative to other structures in the scene. This means they must be kept very close to the camera.

I hope that explains it better. To try and explain it further may require the reader to have a more extensive understanding of Direct3D and the development system used for the game. Otherwise, much of what I'm attempting to convey may not make sense or they may not understand the limitations and conditions I'm referring to.

andysonofbob · Post by **andysonofbob** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:30 pm

What would be the consequence then, if you a) removed the shadow layer from the icons and b) pushed them back to apear the same depth as the gun circle?
If you were happy that they might vanish at certain areas on the screen...

What about the artifical horizon?

Thanks for your time!

edit, the reason I am persisting is because you clearly chose a value for the icons which placed them within the cockpit. Would it be a nightmare to edit a figure to the depth part of it? As an experiment?

[Edited on 4-4-2013 by andysonofbob]

Post by **Vice** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:03 pm

What would be the consequence then, if you

a) removed the shadow layer from the icons

They would then not be visible in front of bright backgrounds (stars, nebula, clouds, horizon, etc).

b) pushed them back to apear the same depth as the gun circle?

They would disappear at many angles, including the ship it's pointing to itself at a fairly close range. It would look very strange and not function properly.

What about the artifical horizon?

Also very close to the camera (actually clipped at the top and bottom by the camera minimum). If it looks better, I couldn't really explain why. Perhaps the 3D system treats the cylinder structure differently from a flat structure. Probably a result of their system more so than the game's engine.

Would it be a nightmare to edit a figure to the depth part of it? As an experiment?

I ran many such experiments over the years to get the current distance and zdepth sorting the way it is now. Changing that, even by about half a float value, would result in the clipping/zdepth problems I described.

norc · Post by **norc** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:40 am

Since we're throwing 3D suggestions in here... would it be possible... JUST possible or maybe it already is, but rather than the toggle mouse view a "hold" mouse view. I currently have my mouse free look assigned to mouse button 4. Be nice if i could just hold for mouse look then release and return to non-mouse look centered.

Also... i know we can only turn 180 degree left/right whats the chance of increasing the mouse free look angles to say 240 degree?

Side note: I can imagine how annoying some of the requests get, I should know I run a couple sites and always get "can you change/add this". So i do appreaciate you taking the time to read/respond to these posts.

Post by **Vice** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:33 am

Since we're throwing 3D suggestions in here... would it be possible... JUST possible or maybe it already is, but rather than the toggle mouse view a "hold" mouse view. I currently have my mouse free look assigned to mouse button 4. Be nice if i could just hold for mouse look then release and return to non-mouse look centered.

Not currently possible, unfortunately. It's generally been the consensus from players to have toggle options. It could be possible, although coming up with an option for it considering the near key limit the game is at could be tricky. It'd either have to be an optional map not assigned by default or a dedicated selectable option for the existing control binding itself.

Also... i know we can only turn 180 degree left/right whats the chance of increasing the mouse free look angles to say 240 degree?

From a previous discussion ( http://www.starwraith.com/forum/viewtop ... #pid158673 ) on the horizontal limitation explaining why it is set this way:

"I intentionally set up restrictions in the rotational movement of the pilot's/player's head. This is a personal preference of mine for my game. I chose to implement a system that simulates you inside the cockpit wearing a helmet sitting in a restrictive seat, rather than you controlling a camera inside the cockpit mounted on a 360-degree pivoting tripod. So if you're sitting in the cockpit and turn your head as far to the left and right as comfortably possible, it would result in around a 180-degree range of movement, rather than an owl-like 360-degrees (which would also just provide a view of the back of the seat anyway). For directly back, the direct rear camera view control option can be used."

That said, the vertical limit for Mouse Look, TrackIR, and padlock is being increase significantly in the next update.

typx · Post by **typx** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:37 am

As for the target icons it is relatively simple to effectively disable the ones you'd like to remove with the customization kit from the downloads page. Simply find the one you don't want shown in the /hud folder, open it in a photo editor and make the entire image whatever the background color is. Then make a copy of the /hud folder with JUST the files you want replaced in the game install directory. The text for ship names will still show and the one that is currently targeted is the one with the distance as well. If I set the convergence so that the text is not doubled up at a normal combat distance it works pretty well. Lots of flight sims have options to select what target icons or labels are shown so that might be a nice feature to add. Also, a toggle to turn them all off without turning off the rest off the hud and/or the whole hud off without the instrument panels going blank as well would be a nice feature.

norc · Post by **norc** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:22 am

That makes sense about the turning restrictions... kinda forgot the whole helmet thing.

Yay for verticle increase however!

I like your idea of having the hold mouse view option as there but only used if defined. That would work great.

andysonofbob · Post by **andysonofbob** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:39 am

I have edited some of the HUD elements removing the boxes around the targets leaving the text info benieth. I think this looks pretty cool and makes it much easier to see in 3D. I have tweaked Viper's Silicon HUD mod (for the default cockpit). http://www.starwraith.com/forum/viewtop ... #pid150638

I can't see how to attatch the file at the moment but it was really easy took less than 5 minutes. I am less bother with the target icons now tbh.

@Vice
Artificial Horizon
I know the top and bottom must be truncated to compensate but would it be possible to push the artificial horizon back slightly? Could we see how much depth we gained before we lost 5 degrees (2.5 degrees each end) or the back of it reached the depth of the target icons, which ever came first?

I think the combined effort of replacing the target textures and pushing the Artificial Horizon back slightly would effective render EM as close to perfect as a game that was design from the ground up for 3D.

edit
I just thought I could remove the texture for the AH couldn't I. I will try that.

[Edited on 4-5-2013 by andysonofbob]

Edit #2
@Vice
I am tying to edit a texture but can't find it (I am looking through HUDs that other people have edited btw :/ ) It is the little green box without corners that covers selected targets. I want to make it bigger. Could you tell me where to find it please?
Thanks!

[Edited on 4-5-2013 by andysonofbob]